RabidAl

^ Nae bother. I was just concerned that they had opted out based on a misunderstanding. ------ I checked the location of the lowland/highland divide on Ordnance Survey Explorer Map 382 (Arbroath, Montrose & Carnoustie) North Sheet. 56 45 13 N is about where the River North Esk meets Montrose Bay, or at the southern-most tip of Aberdeenshire. So it seems that any SPFL club from Angus relegated to the non-league would all along have been relegated to the Lowland League, and that non-league clubs from Angus and Dundee would have been/would be eligible for the Lowland League route into the SPFL.

Precisely what I thought. I wondered if they had their wires crossed somewhere, as the statement doesn't make too much sense. Hopefully the increase in promotion places does materialise to avoid just this type of scenario. The statement refers specifically to the East of Scotland League and the promotion criteria, so I think you're mistaken there: "However, some 12 months we were told that if we were to apply for a license we would need to join the EoS league and that there would be no guarantee that we would be accepted into the Lowland League if we won it. We didn't go public via the website/social media at the time because there was nothing to go public about. The decision was made at that time not to proceed with a license because of that criteria. We are in the fortunate position that we could proceed with a license application as we believe we have pretty much everything in place to do so. However we would not do so based on the criteria outlined above..." It appears that the boundary is and always has been* at the border between Angus and Aberdeenshire. 56,4513N is where the North Esk runs into the North Sea, according to: https://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/findlatlong.htm ...it's about in a line with Little Brechin. *The Highland Football League website section on the pyramid system, dated 10th June 2014, quotes the same latitude of 56,4513N... http://www.highlandfootballleague.com/News/Item/434_The_Pyramid_System_and_how_it_affects_the_SHFL.aspx ...as is to be currently found in the SPFL Rules and Regulations, p.222: https://spfl.co.uk/docs/067_324__therulesofthescottishprofessionalfootballleagueasat24july201_1502440056.pdf

It's not so much that Scotland needs the juniors to have a successful pyramid in place, but that the pyramid would be more successful if it encompassed all grades of football so that it would be fully representative of the nation, fulfilling the principle that a club from anywhere can potentially work their way from bottom to top on merit via promotions within one league structure. I happen to think that many clubs in the juniors have plenty to offer in terms of their fan bases, and it always seems odd to me that certain communities and towns are not represented at a senior level. Some, I feel, would be able to support full-time football given the right conditions, and I take the number of full-time clubs as a barometer of the health of the game in this country. I was wondering if Bonnyrigg would make the move, though: from their statement last year it seemed as though they wouldn't be joining the East of Scotland League until they were guaranteed that they would be accepted into the Lowland League if they won the EoSFL. It seemed odd to me, as surely after winning the EoSFL they'd only need to come through a play off against the best team in the SoSFL in order to be promoted, but perhaps they were referring to a scenario where a team from the HL was promoted to the SPFL in the place of an SPFL team dropping into the LL, and so there might not be any promotion to the LL in that season due to the additional team to be catered for. Anyway, it looked as though they were waiting for a change in the LL promotion process before committing to moving to the seniors, due to fear of being 'stuck' in the EoSFL? http://www.bonnyriggrosefc.co.uk/teams/118321/news/club-statement-in-response-to-falkirk-herald-artic-1780028.html

Any news on this?

Just seems like it would suit everyone to have separate divisions if there was enough interest from clubs in the 'north' - a Clyde division and a Solway division, the winners playing off to be the official South of Scotland League champions and going forward to the Lowland League play off. It shouldn't mean any real change to the existing pyramid structure. I think it would take at least 6 hardy pioneers from the west-central area to join Bonnyton - 7 teams playing each other four times would give a 24-game season in a Clyde division; the remaining 14 or 15 teams in the Solway division could play each other twice for a 26- or 28-game season. In the north, I wonder if it would take something similar - an approach to the Highland League of a half-dozen interested clubs, who offer to join the bottom 2 HL clubs in an (initially unlicenced) 8-team HL2, again playing each other 4 times for a 28-game season, with promotion to the (16 team) HL for any licenced HL2 winners, and promotion to the HL2 from the winners of the north juniors and/or North Caledonian League winners. Someone being relegated from the SPFL to the Highland League might have forced change, as having 19 teams to cater for would surely force them to change their structure and open up the north region; however, this seems unlikely for the time being. The other possibility of a HL team being promoted to the SPFL might not produce any real change in opening up the north of the pyramid, as (I assume) they would just take in Banks o' Dee as club 18.

I would think that any change in the west will have to be lead by the clubs, but it might have to be in the form of working around/within the current pyramid structure since there seems to be no desire with the game's administrators to make any change. It might take a clutch of west juniors and others to approach the South of Scotland League about the possibility of establishing a north division within the SoSFL. This would allow the SoSFL to carry on with its traditional district division in the south, whilst the west-central juniors and others would have a division to play in that is more local to them. It would suit everyone in terms of lower travel costs and more even level of competition, and would not require any upheaval at all of the pyramid. Each of the north and south divisions could have their respective trophies for their winners, with the winners of each playing off to progress to the Lowland League play off with the EoSFL winners. In time, the north division could evolve into a West of Scotland League if more clubs moved across. In the east, I thought a move from Bo'ness to the EoSFL was a certainty this year, given the statement that they put out last April - below: https://www.bonessunited.co.uk/the-future-is-bright/

I'm still not convinced by this. There are plenty of clubs in the senior set up who are unlicenced and do not participate in the Scottish Cup, so i'm not sure why a wholesale incorporation of the junior leagues would be any different: the vast majority of junior clubs would neither have an interest in becoming licenced or the quality to qualify for the Scottish Cup through league placing. That being the case, where would the threat be to the SFA and their money of the junior clubs joining? Elsewhere, I was wondering if there was any news on Bo'ness joining the EoSFL this summer, as they seemed quite keen last April at about the time Kelty were heading in that direction.

Sorry chief, was just floating a couple of ideas. The 8-team LL west that I mentioned is possible right now with a straight-forward east-west split of the teams, so no-one would be jumped over in that case: any west feeder (e.g. the SoSFL) would fit in below, at tier 6. Also, there has been a report that the LL was to restructure along regional lines to accommodate colts teams, which may also have opened it up to applications in the west; again, no-one would be jumping Preston, Burntisland, Coldstream or Kelty since they'd be welcomed into a 16-team east LL and teams/clubs in the west would do their own thing. But it won't happen.

Unlikely possibilities regarding the future shape of national non-league: 1) Half-a-dozen or so juniors and others from the west-central area simultaneously apply to join the South of Scotland League; SoSFL decide to admit them all on the basis that the league would then have the numbers to divide into 2 divisions - the 'original' south district that would keep their regular participants happy, and a north district for the west-central newbies who would be happy playing within their own locale: a West of Scotland division by default. The winners of the north and south divisions would play off for the right to face the EoSFL winners and promotion to the Lowland League. 2) The Lowland League as it is divides into east and west divisions of 8 (Stirling Uni and East Stirlingshire could happily play in a west division); the top 8 of the Highland League also form a top division in their region. The 3 regions (west LL, east LL and Highland) make up a regional-national conference of 24 teams as a step into/out of the national set up. Teams play those within their own division both home and away (14 games), and those in the other divisions either home or away ( a further 16 games). It would mean only 4 long away trips to the highlands each season for those in the 2 lowlands conferences, but would mean 8 long away trips each season for those in the highland conference. The remaining 10 Highland League sides would be supplemented by new members as the pyramid in the north began to open up.

It's not that so much; it's more a counter-argument to this assertion that part-time clubs playing at a national level are supposedly 'self-sufficient' at that level and so are justified in being where they are on that basis. It appears to me to be the case that they wouldn't be able to survive playing football in a national league without their payment from the SPFL, so regionalisation would be a more rational financial solution for all-but-a-handful of part-time clubs. It is certainly not 'prize money' if it is paid to the team/club finishing 42/42. However, it may also be true to say that my club wouldn't be able to sustain full-time football without its payment from the SPFL, and so on until everyone is said to be receiving hand-outs from the OF's 4-big-game-a-year tv deal - the logical outcome of that argument being we have a closed shop, franchised top tier. Perhaps 'solidarity payment' would be a more correct appellation.

I was sure that the Tay was the HL/LL boundary as it'd been discussed as that so often on P&B threads from years past, but these same threads quote the same latitude as in the current SPFL Rules & Regulations of 56,4513N. This appears to draw the line just north of Brechin (at Little Brechin), and so would see the Angus clubs playing in the Lowland League if relegated and any clubs southwards from Angus (and sufficiently far east...) being eligible for the EoSFL (I presume). Check it, below: https://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/findlatlong.htm Could just be one of P&B's/Scottish football's very own self-perpetuating myths - as seen by a google search of '56,4513N', which shows some old threads discussing the same boundary line and associating it with the Tay.

Given those timescales, it'd probably be too much to expect a complete, objective overhaul of the national non-league, but several steps could be taken for it to evolve in the right direction. I'd be hopeful that, as a minimum, it could be agreed that: - the heavily populated west-central area should have a feasible local route into the national pyramid; - the Highland League should provide a route in for licenced north junior winners/licenced NCL winners, as there is no 'local' route into the pyramid in the north at present; and, - the Tay should be replaced by the Angus-Aberdeenshire border as the highland/lowland divide, for geographical reasons (too extensive travel involved in a HL with both Tay and Moray/North teams). (I wonder if this summer would be too early for the Lowland League to split into west and east regions, which could also help with establishing a WoSFL. As I understand it, there has to be a tier of licenced clubs below the SPFL to provide a decent standard for any relegated SPFL club to drop into. There would seem to be enough in the east, with 10 members of the current LL being from that region, plus others from the EoSFL and East Superleague who could apply if there was to be a 16-team East Lowlands League; the east juniors could then plug in below this. In the west, there'd be BSC Glasgow, East Kilbride, Cumbernauld, Gretna, Dalbeattie and Edusport from the LL; Glasgow Uni., Girvan and possibly Threave (having already played over a wider area when in the LL) are licenced and might be interested; I don't know if any others from the SoSFL would be interested, but I wonder if any current west juniors would be able to gain licences by this summer and so apply to join a 16-team West LL for season 2018-19 (they would have to be licenced in the event that Clyde were relegated from the SPFL to a West LL); the west junior leagues and SoSFL could then plug in below this (together being called the West of Scotland Football League), only being promoted if they won the top division and were licenced. Pure speculation, but it would seem to be a fairly straight-forward step towards a more balanced and more national pyramid.) https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/2913/201217cl-current-status.pdf

Can anyone confirm whether this meeting between the SJFA, SFA, LL and HL is taking place today? The article in the Mail (posted on page 73 of this thread) states that it is, but others have said it will be on January 5th. I see there's an SJFA West Region General Meeting scheduled for Thu 25th Jan., so I take it that member clubs will be able to have their say on any proposals arising from the meeting soon enough; from there I would have expected it to be an iterative process, but it looks like the next GM after that isn't until the end of April, although I suppose that'd leave time in between for another meeting with the SFA, LL, HL in order to report back clubs' responses to proposals. http://www.scottishjuniorfa.com/sjfa/scottish_fa_calendar.cfm?page=1746&viewCal=month&curDate={ts '2018-01-04 10:58:22'}

Nope. All I have is the information contained in the two links (one from 2016, one from 2017) posted at the bottom here, indicating that the LL is being overhauled with *'Celtic and Rangers Colts all going into a new regionalised league' and **Rangers and Celtic (and possibly Aberdeen and Hibernian) 'to enter teams in the pyramid for the start of the 2018/19 season'. As I understand it any team/club entering the pyramid has to do so from the bottom, so 'colts' teams (or whatever they're called) representing Rangers and Celtic would have to go in below the LL, since the LL has feeder leagues already. So the LL wouldn't go to 18 teams on the basis of colts' participation, but I guess that whoever is to run these colt teams has, like so many of the juniors, has baulked at the need to play in the SoSFL because of the lower standard and travel distances - the lack of a local route into the national pyramid is the key point that the BSC proposal made, and perhaps others at the top are beginning to see that now. From the information in those links, it would appear that the LL were discussing regionalising to accommodate these colts teams; however, a straight-forward east-west split might leave the west short of licenced clubs, even when the colts are added, and also wouldn't fit in with the principle of them starting from the bottom. Putting all that together, we might have been looking at the LL having West LL and East LL feeders including the colts and applicants from the juniors, seniors, etc; maybe now we're looking at keeping the LL as-is, but with the mooted BSC proposal of a WoSFL feeder including colts and other applicants. (For the record, i'm not in favour of colts teams at all.) Lots of supposition, some evidence, too prolix. * http://www.thejuniors.info/2016/06/ek-boss-happy-decision-join-lowland-league-side/ ** http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-celtic-colt-teams-free-10598516

Bear in mind that the LL itself is being overhauled this summer in order to allow colts teams from Celtic and Rangers to participate as an outcome from Project 'rave. Hibernian and Aberdeen may yet have an involvement in this, too. What this change to the LL will leave for the rest is unclear, as it would depend upon whether the LL will go forward with 18 teams, 2 divisions, regionalise, or some other combination (e.g. 10-12 team LL, followed by LL west & LL east that ask for applications from clubs committed to being licenced within 18 months, with new WoSFL and EoSFL slotting in beneath). At any rate, there is plenty of time for clubs to have their say before anything is finalised (usually in the summer) and if BSCG's proposal achieves nothing else then it has at least encouraged Mr Johnston to state publicly that the SJFA are in discussions with the SFA, LL and HL about junior clubs' participation in the pyramid. BSC probably sent a draft of their proposal to a few clubs with whom they have contacts as an initial 'sounding out' exercise, and what we have seen so far is just the introduction of that draft proposal.

That all sounds like pure speculation. From what little I can gather*, due to cost it's only Rangers, Celtic and possibly Aberdeen and Hibernian who have expressed an interest in having colts teams in the HL or LL, whilst the rest will enter teams in the reserve league that begins in 2018-19 as a replacement for the development league. My guess is that the implication of that level of interest would not be inaugurating a national League Three but, rather, regionalising the Lowland League (and adding a second level to the HL) due to the increased number of teams - which is a little nearer to the proposal that BSCG are said to have made. * http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-celtic-colt-teams-free-10598516 Time will tell.

A national fifth tier, with colts teams, without juniors, is a truly depressing prospect. There is an article here about East Kilbride being keen on colts teams being introduced to the LL (and HL) from next season; the colts teams would be able to be promoted as far as League One; EK's rationale for welcoming colts sides to the LL - despite it possibly being detrimental to their prospects of promotion to the SPFL - is that their addition would draw attention to the LL, draw bigger attendances, and make the league more competitive: all of which would also be arguments, in self interest, for welcoming the top juniors sides to a regionalised LL. (I take it any addition of teams would result in a LL west and LL east.) http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/east-kilbride-fc-back-celtic-10616325 The article does say that discussions were at an early stage and was written in June, so perhaps BSCG's more recent proposal does tie in here. So would it be a WoSFL at tier 6 without colts teams, or a LL west at tier 5 with colts teams, or are we really looking at another national league at the 5th level?

Really? It's a little surprising that clubs in the LL would have the final say, but that needn't scupper a WoSFL proposal I suppose. As most of the LL clubs aren't going anywhere (with so limited an opportunity to be promoted), it'd seem to be in the rational self-interest of their clubs to vote through any proposal that would bring them more revenue in the form of clubs with larger fan bases coming into the league and the greater sponsorship revenue that goes along with a stronger league; it would certainly be in the interests of LL west clubs to have a WoSFL with well-supported local clubs to be relegated into. I would think that the stronger the lowland league, the higher chance there is of SPFL clubs being relaxed about greater promotion and relegation between league and non-league.

So there's no technical issue that would be a barrier to a WoSFL being established at tier 6 (and below)? It would just be a case of BSC obtaining the signatures of interested clubs/stakeholders from the LL and juniors, then taking them to the SFA and saying that they want a division/league at tier 6 of the pyramid that they can be promoted from/relegated to that is closer to them in terms of geography and quality of football than the SoSFL, which is too distant and is all-but-amateur? Hope it happens before any of the big boys' colt teams or any non-club clubs emerge to fill the lacuna.

Can anyone clarify the situation regarding licencing and joining the pyramid? My understanding is that clubs don't have to be licenced in order to join the pyramid (e.g. recently, Bonnyton in the south; Tweedmouth in the east) yet, conversely, if a club does become licenced now then it is committed to joining the pyramid. What i'm driving at is whether there is any obstacle, in the form of licencing, to the west juniors divisions (of unlicenced clubs) slotting into the pyramid under the LL as a West of Scotland League? The juniors in the west region would surely be included if a new league was established in the west, as below... ...although of course it is not the SFA who are said to be involved in discussions about inaugurating a senior West of Scotland League at this stage. I would have thought the reason for launching a WoSFL league, given that this proposal is said to originate from BSCG, is for them to have somewhere to land if they are relegated from the LL, other than a SoSFL that is not desirable to for them to enter because of quality and travel issues; these being the same reasons for clubs in the west juniors being a little shy of becoming involved in the pyramid so far. Surely the only reason for not launching a WoS league is to keep the juniors semi-detached, etc? Either way, I don't believe in that conspiracy.

I may have found an answer to this one. The 2017/18 SPFL Membership Criteria of the League refers to: "...Clubs in the Ladbrokes Premiership and Ladbrokes Championship comply with the stadia criteria at the Scottish FA Bronze Standard", which is on page 4, see: https://spfl.co.uk/spfl/ Page 33 (actual page number, not pdf version) of the Scottish FA Club Licencing Manual 2018 in their Bronze criteria for Spectator Areas (5.13) states: "Minimum level of capacity is 500 covered places." and "There may be seats and standing." , which can be found at: https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/2881/scottish-fa-club-licensing-manual-2018.pdf Make what you will of that... Regarding elite academies, that may just be referring to teams as they progress through the age groups who will play against each other, mostly in those groupings of clubs, all of their time as youths (up until they're under 18s, for example). It may be that clubs are then looking to further develop these players into under 20 colts teams, entered in the non-league/lower leagues, as they 'mature' from the academy system - but i'm not sure how that can fit with Malky Mackay's stated desire to see a return of reserve team football (which never produced great players either). I'd prefer not to see any sort of second team in the leagues at all - whether it's Stranraer in the South, or Hibs in the East - and would rather not see restructuring at all if that is the rub. If we must have colts in the leagues, then they would be better as composite teams of the best youngsters in a given region instead of anything that might segue into clubs' B teams. I agree with you about the West of Scotland League being a major missing piece - the SFA have been negligent in their handling of the pyramid at that level, expecting west juniors from Glasgow, for example, to play their way through a district league in the South isn't very clever; there's also a need for a non-league cup to be established that will help replace the Scottish Junior Cup for clubs who are afraid of losing the national trophy that they have a realistic chance of winning. You may be right about the voting intentions and possibilities of the clubs - the politics of all that is way beyond me!

What would they have to abandon? Couldn't they just move the west juniors wholesale into a West of Scotland League, with promotion to the LL only coming for clubs that are licenced and who win the top tier of the West (as is the case in the SoS and EoS), and who also make it though a play off with EoS & SoS winners?

I'd like to see the SPFL have a re-think of the format and participants for this competition. I'll admit that there is a little novelty value in some of the fixtures, but that's not a basis for a quality tournament. It's a shame really, because there is so much potential for the Challenge Cup to be a really desirable trophy if it was the national competition for league and non-league part-time teams, or if it was the national non-league trophy; it would be great to see it as a proper 'challenge' tournament including the best part-time seniors, juniors and amateurs; the popularity of the juniors' Scottish Cup shows how much better it could be than the present format. For me, the Challenge Cup never really had much appeal before - now it has no identity whatsoever.

This would be a terrific development. Would it be possible or desirable to tie it in with the west juniors' current restructure* in time for next season? If so, it would pretty much take care of the west region of an all-in Scottish football pyramid. Clubs down the west divisions wouldn't be unduly inconvenienced by it, and there's no senior game in the west to be catered for (aside from the SoS, who are already catered for, in the short term anyway) as there would be in the east. I'm thinking that teams in the west are currently in the divisions they are on merit, and I wouldn't like to see new clubs or colts teams suddenly appearing on the horizon at the prospect of a new league being established as they seemed to do with the LL. So would it be better to copy and paste the whole west juniors structure into any West of Scotland League rather than establish a new league that was asking for applications? * http://www.thejuniors.info/2017/07/whitletts-victoria-statement-league-reconstruction/

In the past i've been in favour of something similar to your suggestion of having some sort of limited colt team participation in the League, and I like the way that you propose to do it; however, I wonder if there's another way of giving youngsters more competitive experience at an early age whilst continuing to develop skills training full-time during the week. At the moment, my preference would be for the SFA to pay 16-19 year olds an apprenticeship wage to train with their peers full time at regional and national centres, whilst these youths at the same time being loaned out from their parent clubs to play for part-time clubs within the League, to gain match day experience in real competition. Which would avoid undermining the integrity of the competition. Something that stood out for me during the 'reconstruction' a few years back (which did everything but restructure the League) was that the top tier somehow kept their 11-1 voting system - i.e. 11 clubs in the top tier will still have to vote for any change to the top tier size, specifically, in order for it to carry. I believe that the old stadium capacity criteria was replaced by licencing requirements that do not focus on capacity so much as on the quality of facilities. Since more than 80% of supporters are/were in favour of some sort of expansion of the top level, it does seem that those in charge were not listening - they seem to have delivered everything on page 17 of that report I referenced above, but ignored fans' actual views on page 16. They could easily progress towards addressing fans' views by a fairly straight-forward move to 14-14-14, 39-game season with the winners of a LL-HL play-off promoted directly to tier 3. (The issue of finding a fourth Old Firm game for TV revenues was (in my view) solved on an old thread on this forum, the pragmatic suggestion being that the OF could be deliberately drawn together in the League Cup each season to guarantee a further OF game for TV.) Anyhow, I think a direct move to a 16-team top level or any major change to the composition of the League would be too drastic/revolutionary for those who administer the game. -----EDIT (below) I should say that I would be in favour of an evolutionary change from the current set up, through 14-14-14-LL/HL (which would only require a small re-organisation at SPFL level), to an eventual all-in 14-14-West/Highland/East structure. I would hope the first change could take place immediately, with the second change happening within 10 years. The transition from 12-10-10-10 to 14-14-14 could be managed to avoid a 'dead' season and give meaning to the leagues as follows: 1) a) The team finishing bottom place in the current Premiership would play off against 3rd, 4th, and 5th in tier 2 for one top tier place; .....b) 1st and 2nd in the Championship would be automatically promoted at the season's end; giving (with the play-off winners) a 14-team top tier the following season. 2) a) The 3 teams losing the Premiership play off and the 5 remaining tier 2 teams would compete in the following season's tier 2; .....b) The top 4 teams in League One would automatically qualify for the following season's tier 2; .....c) The remaining 6 teams in League One and the top 2 teams in League 2 would play off for the final two places in the second tier, giving a 14-team tier 2. 3) The 6 play-off losers from League One and the remaining 8 teams from League Two would form a 14-team national tier 3. 4) a) Within 10 years, combine national tier 3 with Lowland and Highland leagues of tier 4; then divide into West, Highland and East regions to form regionalised tier 3; .....b) East region would be composed of Angus, Tay, Fife, Forth, Lothians, Borders; West region would be everything west of these; Highland would be everything north. .....c) Juniors and remaining seniors would initially come in below this (i.e. - at tier 4) in a new West 2, a new East 2 and, possibly, separate Highland & Aberdeenshire leagues below the (tier 3) HL - all without a licencing bar, initially. ....d) Then district leagues in the 'lowlands', such as the South of Scotland FL and amateur leagues would feed into these broader regions, from tier 5 and below.