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About bluedragon

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  1. Here is our latest list (in rank order) of the thirty players who have played the most matches for Junior Scotland. The number of games shown after each player are: Total matches – International matches – Other matches. As ever, please raise any questions, etc. 1 Davie Fulton (Arthurlie) 22-12-10 2 Tommy Ure (Linlithgow Rose) 18-12-6 3 Derek McCulloch (Auchinleck Talbot) 16-11-5 4 Bryan Smith (Petershill & Shettleston) 16-9-7 5 Alex Hendrie (Shotts Bon Accord) 15-12-3 6 Norrie Fulton (Johnstone Burgh, Petershill & Pollok) 14-12-2 7 Bert McNab (Petershill) 14-13-1 8 Jackie Myles (Bonnyrigg Rose) 14-13-1 9 Billy Spence (Kelty Hearts & Hill of Beath Hawthorn) 14-6-8 10 Steven Stewart (Tayport) 14-8-6 11 Gavin Duncan (Arthurlie) 13-8-5 12 Dougie Freedman (Petershill & Cambuslang Rangers) 13-11-2 13 Tommy Reynolds (Cumnock) 13-9-4 14 Duncan Sinclair (Lesmahagow & Cumnock) 13-9-4 15 John Chalmers (Lesmahagow) 12-10-2 16 Bryan Dingwall (Maryhill & Pollok) 12-10-2 17 Robert Downs (Arthurlie & Pollok) 12-11-1 18 Dennis Gray (Auchinleck Talbot) 12-8-4 19 Joe Carruth (Glenafton Athletic & Pollok) 11-9-2 20 Gary Graham (Beith Juniors & Auchinleck Talbot) 11-7-4 21 Ronnie Lowrie (Blantyre Victoria & Baillieston) 11-8-3 22 Chris McKenzie (Camelon) 11-7-4 23 Iain Ross (Lochee United) 11-10-1 24 Willie Young (Auchinleck Talbot) 11-11-0 25 Iain Ashcroft (Arthurlie & Pollok) 10-7-3 26 Raymond Day (Cumnock) 10-9-1 27 Marc Graham (Hill of Beath Hawthorn) 10-7-3 28 Davie Mair (Stonehouse Violet) 10-8-2 29 Mike McManus (Lochee Harp) 10-5-5 30 Derek Wingate (Benburb & Irvine Meadow XI) 10-7-3
  2. Ash pitches in Scotland

    Yes that's correct. When the New Street bus depot was demolished a few years ago and before the building of the Canongate development started a walk up to Regent Road gave a great view down into the cleared site that probably looked very much as it did when it was Bathgate Park.
  3. We are now trying to find matches where a Junior Scotland team played in games to celebrate anniversaries of clubs, leagues, football associations, towns, in fact, anything! So far we have 14 such matches but feel that there may well be more. If anyone can help add to the list it would be very appreciated. Here is the current list of matches: 1944 v Western League (Western League Silver Jubilee) 1952 v Banks o' Dee (Golden Jubilee of Banks o' Dee FC) 1952 v Perthshire Junior Football Association (Perthshire JFA Jubilee) 1968 v Bo'ness United (Tercentenary of the town) 1970 v Lanark United (Lanark United FC's Golden Jubilee) 1971 v Secondary Juvenile XI (The Scottish Secondary Juvenile FA 50th Anniversary) 1974 v Central League XI (Vale of Clyde FC centenary) 1978 v Arniston Rangers (Arniston Rangers FC centenary) 1985 v East of Scotland Junior Football Association (Centenary of Junior football in the East of Scotland) 1989 v Central League Select (Ayrshire JFA Centenary Tournament) 1989 v North Ayrshire Select (Ayrshire JFA Centenary Tournament) 1994 v North Wales Coast FA (NWCFA Centenary) 1995 v Camelon (Camelon FC 75th Anniversary) 1997 v Irvine Meadow XI (Irvine Meadow XI FC centenary)
  4. Thank you very much for posting this. The 1920 tour was by the Scottish Junior League, with the Scottish Junior Football Association touring in 1921 and the Central League in 1933. The 1921 tour information is initially of great interest as it gives us a "missing" result for our Junior Scotland records. Also the opposition and venue are given for each match. The names of the opponents in the Scottish newspapers of the time were inconsistent and so this will help sort them out. Thank you.
  5. Thanks Gogsy. That’s it! It was the Infantry Training Centre for the Cameronians, Highland Light Infantry and Gordon Highlanders based at the Gordon Barracks in Bridge of Don. The newspapers of the day say they played their part in the sport in the city with their short-lived Junior team together with Rugby Union and cricket teams. Thank you.
  6. For those of you interested and/or given help in the past on this thread here is another update and yet another request for help. We have now found 376 matches played by a SJFA XI team that include internationals, benefit matches, matches against county select teams, tour matches, etc. We have the names of 2,141 players and forenames for the vast majority. We are missing the names of 300 players where we have match details but not the line-up. We have the names of 90% of the Scottish goalscorers. We are on the way to publishing the third version of the Excel spreadsheet and if anyone has any specific questions on what we have for their club we would be very happy to try and give an answer. There is no such thing as a free lunch! Here is the request for help! In the early years of the Second World War the SJFA put out select teams often to help raise funds for war-time appeals. The players involved were a mixture of young players, servicemen on leave, players in reserve occupations (mines/shipyards) etc. Some of these are proving difficult to find a forename/nickname as the war may have robbed them of their best footballing years and they did not re-appear in Junior or Senior football when football was re-established after the end of hostilities. On ther other hand we have come across one or two players from the English Football League who were able to play Junior football under emergency regulations if they were stationed in Scotland. If anyone can help with any of the names on this list it would, as always, be very much appreciated. Here is a list from matches played in 1941. TODAY'S CLUBS Armadale Thistle Banks Keenan Arthurlie Hynd Benburb Brooks Clydebank Juniors (treated as today’s Clydebank for these purposes) Grassie Hall Russell's Baxter Petershill Charles Kerr McCreadie DEFUNCT CLUBS Coatbridge St Patrick's C Quinn Elmwood (Dundee) McKay Hillside United (Angus) Wilson ITC (Aberdeen - possibly a college?) Lawson
  7. Various club name issues

    That has always had me wondering too! I do not think that there is one English League club that has, at least originally, a non-geographical location name. Arsenal were of course originally Woolwich Arsenal. Port Vale were apparently named after a house in Stoke-on-Trent where the club was formed. The club then moved to nearby Burslem and became “Burslem Port Vale” and they entered the Football League under that name in 1892. The club found a new ground a few miles away and dropped the “Burslem” and when it moved back to Burslem in 1950 did not add the town’s name back. The nearest I have come to as a theory is that clubs’ very rarely change their name. Therefore whoever got in first with a name means that it has probably stuck. SENIORS A broad generalisation of how some of the distinctly Scottish clubs names may have emerged: 1. Someone came up with a name and it gets the thumbs-up from the players and committee and hey presto the club had a name and it has endured. I understand Rangers were named after an English Rugby team that someone had seen and thought was a good name. Hawick Royal Albert owes the “Royal Albert” to two gentleman from Larkhall involved in the formation of the Borders club and suggested that it adopted the name of their home town club. 2. The club just carries on using a name of an army unit, cricket club, etc. and was where the early players met, e.g. Third Lanarkshire Rifle Volunteers. 3. Less common or local names for towns. As mentioned Saint John’s toun is the ancient name for Perth. St Johnstone was formed from St Johnstone Cricket Club and adopted the name. So the early Perth footballers did not deliberately select a romantic name for its new club. Queen of the South is surely one of the best club names? However, apparently from the late 19th Century it was a well-used nickname for the town and had been used by earlier Dumfries clubs. When the present club was formed in 1919 it was an amalgamation of several clubs, one of which was Dumfries FC, and they chose to use the name. Therefore although the early football pioneers have left us a legacy of wonderful club names I don’t think that this was their intention as they only wanted a distinctive name. It is only over the years that they have rightly become romantic! In the early days of the game the football club names in England and Scotland developed differently. In England the North West, Black Country, etc, were a collection of towns and naming the club after the town was a source of civic pride and early bragging rights, i.e. our town’s better than your town. In Scotland, perhaps clubs, certainly in Glasgow and Edinburgh, did not see the need to add the city name as a prefix as they already had a distinctive and unique name. Some smaller Scottish cities and towns simply use their town/city name. Perhaps some of these clubs e.g. Arbroath, dropped an early suffix to make it clear that they were the main team in the town and ranked above the other short-lived senior and many junior clubs who played nearby with fancy names. Other clubs will have been part of early amalgamations, e.g. Ayr Parkhouse, and a more conservative name was given to the new club. JUNIORS As we know Junior football has some wonderful club names but when you boil it down almost all clubs are named after their original location in some way. I read a theory as to why so many Junior clubs have names of flora. Adding a flowery name may have made the clubs in "the gentlemen’s game played by ruffians" more acceptable especially in the local community from which they relied on for backing. So perhaps saying: “I am off to watch the Heatherbell play the Violet” was more acceptable than saying: “I am off to see the village football team kick seven bells out of the neighbouring village side”. OVERSEAS The official name of top Argentinian club Boca Juniors is “Club Atlético Boca Juniors”. The English word “Juniors” was retained as there was British influence (together with other European countries) in the early days of the game there. Sadly, it does not have a link to Scottish Junior football as the literal meaning is “the sons of the La Boca district in Buenos Aires”.
  8. Various club name issues

    Many thanks for all the contributions, suggestions, etc. I have now re-worked the list taking a much wider view of clubs named after their locations following your feedback. Here it is. Clubs simply named, originally at least, after their location be it a city, town, village, area, church, bar, geographical feature, i.e. named after its location and without a suffix - (45) Clubs named without any reference at all it to its original or current location - (2) They are Hermes and Royal Albert Athletic. Clubs with a city, town, village or area and then a suffix - (84). That suffix may be a second, local geographical reference, e.g. North End. They are: United (15) Thistle (12) Juniors (11) Victoria (6) Athletic (4) Rovers (4) Rangers (3) Albert (1) Albion (1) Bon Accord (1) Boswell Thistle (1) Burgh (1) Burntonians (1) Glencairn (1) Harp (1) Hearts (1) Hibs (1) Ladeside (1) Meadow XI (1) North End (1) Panmure (1) Parkvale (1) Perthshire (1) Rob Roy (1) Roselea (1) Royal (1) St Ninian (1) St Ternan (1) Star Hearts (1) Talbot (1) University (1) Violet (1) Wanderers (1) Welfare (1) West End (1) YMCA (1)
  9. Various club name issues

    Yes you are right of course but I discounted them as they are not names AFAIK of areas of Banff or Keith respectively. A bit pedantic I know!
  10. Various club name issues

    With apologies in advance for any howlers you spot in my geography here are the nine with no town/city/area link: Benburb Colony Park Deveronside Hermes Islavale Rossvale St Anthony's St Roch's Vale of Clyde Here are other 33 clubs with a town/city/area name: Arthurlie Ashfield Blairgowrie Clydebank Cruden Bay Culter Downfield Dufftown East End Gartcairn Girvan Glenrothes Glentanar Kinnoull Lesmahagow Longside Luncarty Maryhill Maud Muirkirk Petershill Pollok Port Glasgow Renfrew Rosyth Stonehaven Stoneyburn Sunnybank Tayport Troon Vale of Leven Whitburn Whitehills Any corrections will be gratefully received.
  11. Various club name issues

    There are 131 Junior clubs and 89 have a suffix Of these: 14 are Uniteds 12 are Thistles (including Lugar Boswell Thistle) 11 are Juniors (where the plural is an integral part of the club name and not just as in Junior Football Club (JFC) and/or may be known locally as “XXXXXX Juniors”. 6 are Victorias 5 are Athletics 4 are Rovers (Ardrossan Winton Rovers, Buckie Rovers, Carluke Rovers and Kello Rovers) 3 are Rangers The remaining 55 clubs each have a unique suffix. Add to that 9 clubs that have a name that does not include a town/city/area Add to that 33 clubs that have a name of a town/city/area and no suffix NOTE: the allocation of these 42 clubs between the two categories may need to be adjusted as there are one or two that are difficult to work out.
  12. Various club name issues

    IRVINE MEADOW XI As Cmontheloknow has posted the story has been told before but it is always worth telling again! So to add to Meadow XI's post here it is! The name Irvine Meadow XI dates back to a naming convention of the 1890’s. Junior club Irvine Celtic played at Meadow Park. A juvenile club had been formed in the town and they were looking for a better ground. With many of the team living near Meadow Park they approached Irvine Celtic who were agreeable to the proposal. Although the new affiliation between the clubs was loose and the two clubs were for all intents and purposes separate clubs, the Juvenile club was named using the convention of the day. This convention was that the club playing at a lower grade was named as follows: [Host club] [Ground] XI i.e. Irvine Celtic Meadow XI. Other clubs using this convention were Rangers Ibrox XI, Hibernian Easter XI, Queen’s Park Hampden XI, Clyde Barrowfield XI, Third Lanark Cathkin XI and Kilmarnock Rugby XI. The Juvenile club played its first match in September 1895. When Irvine Celtic folded in December 1895 the Juvenile side were allowed by the landlord to play on at Meadow Park. With their host club’s demise the club dropped the “Celtic” from its name. It probably should have dropped the “XI” at the same time but did not. After a good first season they became the tenant at Meadow Park. The new Irvine Meadow XI quickly moved from Juvenile for Junior football. EAST CRAIGIE / DOWNFIELD In the SJFA Handbook the clubs are given as Downfield and Dundee East Craigie but as far as I am aware it should be Downfield and East Craigie. EAST END The SJFA Handbook says “Aberdeen East End”. However, the club name is “East End”. I wonder if “Aberdeen” was unofficially added and adopted by the SJFA in the past to distinguish it from other clubs with the same name. e,g, Forfar East End, and has remained even though it is the only “East End” today? NEWMAINS UNITED The SJFA Handbook says “Newmains United Community FC”. The club badge says “Newmains United CFC”. I suppose the main thing to establish is how clubs are registered for football purposes. Some clubs are registered as companies or charities and will have a longer registered name than they use for football purposes .e.g. Ardrossan Winton Rovers Football Club Limited and Bathgate Thistle Community Football Club, etc. From what I can see in Newmains case “Community” is not an integral part of the club’s football name but simply used in the suffix “CFC”. That’s just a guess though. KIRKCALDY YM The SJFA Handbook says “Kirkcaldy YMCA”. KIRRIEMUIR THISTLE The SJFA Handbook says “Kirriemuir Thistle”. That one has always confused me. Which one is correct? THORNTON HIBS The SJFA Handbook says “Thornton Hibs” and I can remember being told that it is definitely Hibs and is not Hibernian. JUNIOR SUFFIX Some clubs are described as Junior Football Club in their full name and the JFC is dropped in reporting. This is the equivalent of say Sunderland who use the suffix Association Football Club (AFC) but are known simply as Sunderland. However, others use Juniors (i.e. plural) as an integral part of their club name, e.g. Camelon Juniors, Cumnock Juniors, Darvel Juniors. Many clubs probably used the Juniors suffix in the early days to differentiate it from a Senior club from the same town, e.g. Beith, and the name just stuck. Other clubs, e.g. Dyce who are fairly recent club formed from an amalagamation, have made a deliberate decision to have “Juniors” as part of the club name. NEILSTON JUNIORS The SJFA Handbook says “Neilston Juniors”. VICTORIAS & ALBERTS Some time ago I looked at clubs with the suffix Victoria or Albert. From what I found very few were named directly in honour of the Queen or the Prince Consort but adopted the name indirectly through an association with a local park or bar or in one case a ship named after them. Lochgelly Albert is the exception with the club’s suffix being the name of the French town where many local men died in the First World War.
  13. Ash pitches in Scotland

    Edinburgh Emmet played at Bathgate Park that was a cinder pitch. The ground was just off the Canongate part of the Royal Mile. In the late 19th Century the site was a gas works that closed in around 1900 and lay derelict for a short time before the buildings were demolished in 1918. As an open space simply known as the Old Gas Works it was utilised for all sorts of events. It appears to have become a football ground when Edinburgh Emmet were given a tenancy for the site by Edinburgh Corporation at a rent of £10 pa to allow the club to establish a football ground on the site when they joined the Junior ranks in 1918. It took its name from Baillie Bathgate who was a senior councillor on the Edinburgh Corporation who represented the Canongate Ward and did a lot to help develop recreational activities for residents. The ground was little more than a cinder pitch with a perimeter fence. It was soon heavily used for other matches, e.g. juvenile, local cup finals, etc. Edinburgh Emmet enjoyed some success and this was no doubt in part due to their central location and being able to attract attendances of around 2,000. Attendances at the ground were some times as high as 7,000. However, there was continual pressure to utilise the empty central location and Bathgate Park was short-lived. The Edinburgh Corporation sold a 3.49 acre site that included Bathgate Park to the Scottish Motor Traction Company for £17,500. The last report of football being played there is in August 1926. The Corporation found Emmet another temporary ground on land they were building on in the south of the city. Emmet officials, while pleased they had a ground, were concerned with being decanted so far from the centre of the city. The temporary ground was very soon taken up for housing and the club moved to Meadowbank. The club ceased to exist in 1930. The match "Blackie Gold" recalls might be when Auchinleck Talbot played Edinburgh Emmet at Bathgate Park on 5 January 1924 in the 5th Round of the Junior Cup and won 2:1. Appropriately Ashfield's Saracen Park was an ash pitch at one time. I had always thought the ash pitch was a Scottish phenomenon however when Dalkeith Thistle toured Norway in 1954 they played Voss Sports on an ash pitch.
  14. Here is another list! This shows Junior players who were capped at: 1) Junior level and then went on to be capped at full international level [J/S followed by the Senior clubs played for when winning full caps] 2) both Junior and Amateur level when playing for a Junior club. [J/A] 3) Amateur level when playing for a Junior club. [A] The players are grouped under their Junior club. Jock Brown appears twice. He won Junior caps whilst at Glenburn Rovers and Shawfield. As ever, if anyone spots an error, has different information or has a question do please just let me know. Parkhead (4) George Key J/S (Heart of Midlothian) Tommy Low J/S (Rangers) James Raeside J/S (Third Lanark) Andrew Richmond J/S (Queen's Park) Arthurlie (3) John Anderson J/S (Leicester City) Andy Weir J/S (Motherwell) Johnny Kelly J/S (Barnsley) Ashfield (3) Stevie Chalmers J/S (Celtic) - "Lisbon Lion" Johnnie Crum J/S (Celtic) Alistair McMillan J/A Irvine Meadow XI (3) Ian Prentice J/A - played for Amateur Scotland and Junior Scotland in games less than 24 hours apart. Alan Johnstone J/A - Junior Scotland match against non-international opposition Bobby Murray A Maryhill (3) Donald Colman J/S (Aberdeen) Willie Lennie J/S (Aberdeen) Charles Pringle J/S (St Mirren) - Junior Scotland match against non-international opposition St Anthony's (3) John Gilchrist J/S (Rangers) Tommy McInally J/S (Celtic) Jimmy Dunn J/S (Hibernian and Everton) - "Wembley Wizard" Blantyre Celtic (2) Jimmy Johnstone J/S (Celtic) - "Lisbon Lion" Paul Wilson J/S (Celtic) Bo’ness United (2) Alex Scott J/S (Rangers & Everton) Jim Scott J/S (Hibernian) Glasgow Perthshire (2) Jimmy Connor J/S (Sunderland) James Lawrence J/S (Newcastle United) Kilsyth Rangers (2) Drew Jarvie J/S (Airdrieonians) George Mulhall J/S (Aberdeen and Sunderland) Mugiemoss (2) Dougie Gray J/S (Rangers) Benny Yorston J/S (Aberdeen) Shawfield (2) Jock Brown J/S (Clyde) - Father of Scottish Rugby Union Internationals Peter (“PC”) Brown and Gordon (“Broon frae Troon”) Brown. Bobby Dougan J/S (Heart of Midlothian) Benburb (1) Victor Matassa A Blantyre Victoria (1) Jimmy Brownlie J/S (Third Lanark) Bridgeton Waverley (1) Pat Quinn J/S (Motherwell) Burnbank Swifts (1) Bob Foyers J/S (St Bernards) Cambuslang Rangers (1) Kenny Campbell J/S (Liverpool and Partick Thistle) Carnoustie Panmure (1) Jimmy Easson J/S (Portsmouth) - Junior Scotland match against non-international opposition Cumbernauld United (1) Kenny Dalglish J/S Celtic and Liverpool) - Junior Scotland matches against non-international opposition. European Cup winner with Liverpool. Cumnock (1) William Ritchie A Dalry Primrose (1) Bobby Walker J/S (Heart of Midlothian) Darvel (1) Nicol Smith J/S (Rangers) Douglas Water Thistle (1) Peter Nellies J/S (Heart of Midlothian) - Captained Scotland at Full International level. Dundee North End (1) Gordon Smith J/S (Hibernian) - Junior Scotland match against non-international opposition and a member of the "Famous Five". Dundee Violet (1) Scot Symon J/S (Rangers) - played cricket for Scotland as well. Duntocher Hibernian (2) Pat Crerand J/S (Celtic and Manchester United) - European Cup winner with Manchester United. Alan McFarlane A East Kilbride Thistle (1) Willie Pettigrew J/S (Motherwell) Falkirk Juniors (1) James Croal J/S (Falkirk) Glenafton Athletic (1) William Paton A Glenbuck Athletic (1) Willie Muir J/S (Dundee) Glenburn Rovers (1) Jock Brown J/S (Clyde) - Father of Scottish Rugby Union Internationals Peter (“PC”) Brown and Gordon (“Broon frae Troon”) Brown. Greenock (1) Jimmy Stewart A Greenock Volunteers (1) Harry Rennie J/S (Heart of Midlothian and Hibernian) Johnstone Burgh (1) Billy McDerment A Kilmarnock Rugby XI (1) Bobby Templeton J/S (Aston Villa, Newcastle United, Woolwich Arsenal and Kilmarnock) Kilwinning Rangers (1) Robert Beattie J/S (Preston North End) Lanark United (1) Tommy Barr A Longriggend Wanderers (1) Hugh Morgan J/S (St Mirren and Liverpool) Minerva (1) David Stewart J/S (Queen's Park) - Junior Scotland match against non-international opposition Neilston (1) Dixie Deans J/S (Celtic) Newmilns (1) Andrew Cunningham J/S (Rangers) - Captained Scotland at Full International level. Newtongrange Star (1) Dave Mackay J/S (Heart of Midlothian and Tottenham Hotspur) Port Glasgow Athletic Juniors (1) Matt Armstrong J/S (Aberdeen) Renfrew Victoria (1) Jimmy Gordon J/S (Rangers) Royal Albert (1) Bobby Hogg J/S (Celtic) Rutherglen Glencairn (1) Alexander Bennett J/S (Celtic and Rangers) - His grandson is Sandy Carmichael, Scotland rugby international and British Lion. Shotts Bon Accord (1) Brian Martin J/S (Motherwell) South Western (1) Jack Fyfe J/S (Third Lanark) St Roch's (1) Jim Brogan J/S (Celtic) - Junior Scotland match against non-international opposition. Thorniewood United (1) Eddie O’Neil A Tranent (1) Lindsay Finlayson A Troon (1) Gordon Armstrong A Vale of Clyde (1) James Hamilton J/S (St Mirren) Wallyford Bluebell (1) Danny Liddle J/S (East Fife) Yoker Athletic (1) Ian Wallace J/S (Coventry City)
  15. That is very sad news. Dougie Friedman won his first cap for Junior Scotland at the end of the 1977/78 season against Wales and then became a fixture in the side for the next three years playing in four consecutive seasons. He played in eleven consecutive matches against international opposition. He played in at least one match against non-international opposition making a total of 12 matches. He was appointed captain for his second international against the Republic of Ireland and went on to captain the team in at least seven matches. Details of captains are sketchy but on the records we have Dougie captained Junior Scotland more than any other player. His international matches were: England 1980, 1981 Northern Ireland 1978, 1980 Republic of Ireland 1978, 1979, 1980 Wales 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981