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About bluedragon

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    Junior League Sub

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  1. The original match was postponed due to the weather. Junior Scotland have played six matches against the Highland League but the 1980 match is the only one where we have the full details. Here are the six matches. Can anyone help fill in the gaps? 3 May 1980 at Borough Briggs, Elgin 0:3 lost 5 April 1981 at Muirton Park, Perth 1:1 drawn (Missing nine players’ names and the Junior goalscorer) 1 May 1982 at Victoria Park, Buckie 0:1 lost (Only the names of the selected squad are known) 24 April 1983 at Westview Park, Kirriemuir 2:1 won (Only the names of the selected squad are known) 4 March 1997 at Allan Park, Aberdeen 1:0 won (Missing nine players’ names) 12 December 1999 at North End Park, Dundee (No details known – was it even played?)
  2. I am sorry I do not have much more. Norman George Brown was born in Falkirk on 25 October 1957. It appears that he may have been on an S Form with Hibernian. He played for Grangemouth International Boys Club. He joined Coventry City in August 1974 it then goes a bit hazy because a Norman Brown of Norwich City was a Scotland Under-18 trialist in 1975/76. Is this the same player? The next I have is that he played one league game for Dundee in the 1978/79 season after playing in Norway. I am afraid I do not have him playing for Meadowbank Thistle or anything after that. There were three Norrie Browns playing around the same time but your player is slightly younger than the other two. I believe that the Linlithgow Rose player was a Pumpherston player in 1969/70 before signing for Rose in August 1974. The other one came from Paisley and is older. I am sorry I cannot help further but I hope others might be able to help.
  3. The Linlithgow Rose player is Norman James Brown (dob 23 July 1950) and the player you have mentioned I am fairly sure is Norman George Brown (dob 25 October 1957). I hope this helps.
  4. We are just about to finish Version 3 of a record of 405 matches (Internationals and other games) played by Junior Scotland from 1889. Can anyone help with some details of four matches against Junior clubs? They are: 22 October 1995 v Camelon Juniors at Carmuirs Park, Camelon (Camelon Juniors FC 75th anniversary) - Junior Scotland XI that took the field (we have the squad), score and scorers. 23 March 2003 v Fauldhouse United - Junior Scotland team, score, scorers and venue. 13 April 2003 v Pollok - Junior Scotland team, score, scorers and venue. 27 February 2005 v Petershill at Petershill Park, Glasgow – Junior Scotland XI that took the field (we have the squad), score and scorers. Thank you.
  5. Many thanks for posting the photographs of the cap and the badge. I am sure this is your uncle's cap from the match against England in Birmingham on 21 April 1923. Your Uncle was selected in the Reserve XI for the two earlier Junior Internationals in the 1922/23 season v Ireland (17 March 1923 at Dundee) and Wales (7 April 1923 at Bangor) before being selected for the team to play England in Birmingham on 21 April 1923. The Reserve XI was a shadow XI used to make replacements for any call-offs in the selected XI. So an injury to the left back in the week before the international would see the left back in the Reserve XI called up. One of the Reserve XI would be nominated as travelling reserve and would receive a cap. Your uncle was not called up to play against Ireland and Wales. We also saw your uncle’s name recorded as “Noble” in one source but when we checked the newspapers of the day it was always correctly recorded as “Mable”. The Scottish Junior Football Association did not play internationals against Irish Free State/Eire/Republic of Ireland until 1947. There were matches played before 1947 but it was the Scottish Junior Football League that provided the team but they did not start until 1927 and in any event that league’s membership only stretched as far east as Stirlingshire. I am sorry for the long-winded reply but I think we have correctly identified the match in which your uncle played and won his Junior cap. Thank you once again for the post with his forename and the photographs.
  6. Thank you very much for giving us a forename for one of our Junior Internationalists. Your uncle played in the International against England at St Andrews, Birmingham on 21 April 1923 that Scotland lost 0:1 in front of a crowd of 6,000. He would have received a cap for that game. Because there is not a direct equivalent to Junior football in England it was impossible to select a truly representative English team to play Junior Scotland. The SJFA had a long-standing arrangement with the Birmingham County FA to play matches against their representative team consisting of a mixture of players from Football League clubs (but that had not played League or FA Cup matches for their club) and players from local non-league clubs. The team was styled as “England”. The Birmingham FA had a Scot as a long-standing secretary who was key to the longevity of this annual fixture and ensuring competitive matches were played despite the different set-ups north and south of the border. I was also interested in your reference to Aberdeen. The 1922 match against England (Birmingham FA) was played at Aberdeen. I looked at the team and reserves selected, together with a late replacement and the name of the travelling reserve (who would have been given a cap). However, I could not find any reference to your uncle being involved in this match. However, if you know more then I would be very happy to look further. Many thanks for the two photographs.
  7. Here is an update on where we are in compiling definitive details of matches played by Junior Scotland since 1889. We have so far identified 266 International matches and 128 other matches (benefits, games against county JFA selects, Senior clubs, etc.). Of those 6 were postponed/abandoned leaving 263 Internationals and 125 other games. We have the players’ surnames for all the international matches but are missing names for 308 players in the other matches. In all we have identified 2,230 players who have played for Junior Scotland. We have worked to find forenames/initials of players not least to sort out the 34 “Browns” who have played. We now have a first initial or forename for all but 97 of those players. We are missing goalscorers for 91 of the 900 goals scored. The information is drying up but is still flowing slowly! We are currently trying to identify the trainers who accompanied the team from the very early days as well as the team captains. From more recent times we are trying to fill gaps in the sequences of managers. We have not forgotten the referee and have listed those, where we can find them, as well. We are close to having Version 3 available but if anyone thinks they can help please do let us know.
  8. Willie Gibson

    Willie Gibson was a Scot but played for the Irish League hence the "former Irish Internationalist" reference you found. He started off playing South of Scotland League football with Stranraer and Tarff Rovers. He had trials at Third Lanark but signed for Bangor in the Irish League for the 1947/48 season. By the 1949/50 season he had established himself as one of the best inside forwards in the Irish League and was selected to play for the Irish League against the Scottish League at Ibrox Park on 7 September 1949. In the middle of the 1949/50 season Willie left Northern Ireland to take up a business appointment back home in Scotland. In January 1950 Newton Stewart tried to sign him from Bangor but were not successful. His registration at Bangor had not been cancelled. Bangor put him on their retained list at the end of that season. Willie applied to the Irish League Rules Revision Committee to have his name removed to make him free to join a Scottish club but the committee upheld the decision. However, from what you have found it sounds as if these problems were soon resolved. It also looks as if he was still keen to play League football. In December 1950 he was given a trial by Hartlepools United. I think he is the same Willie Gibson who signed for Stranraer on 16 July 1955 before being released on 30 April 1957 having played 56 league games (2 goals).
  9. TheRaithRover - It was a pleasure to try and help and to ask others for their assistance. Another contact has been looking at this and has told me that the Scottish Juvenile Football Association match planned for Easter 1904 in Bradford was declined by the Bradford and District Association soon after it was suggested. This means that taken along with everything else we know you can be reasonably confident to say that the cap was presented by the Stirlingshire Juvenile Football Association for the match against Glasgow Juveniles in May 1904.
  10. A contact has given me some helpful information on the possible Juvenile connections to the cap. Stirlingshire Juveniles had an annual match against Glasgow Juveniles at this time. Unfortunately newspaper reports were brief and there were no team line-ups. From what I have found the 1904 match probably took place on either 7 May 1904 or a Saturday following closely after 14 May 1904 when Glasgow and Edinburgh Juveniles met at Atlas Park in Glasgow. It appears that the Stirlingshire Juvenile Football Association only had the one representative match each season and that could account for the year (1904) rather than the season (1903/04) being embroidered on the cap. So where does that leave us? The "S" in "SJFA 1904" almost certainly stands for "Stirlingshire" and perhaps "J" is more likely to be "Juvenile" as the "Junior" links do not quite match up with the information known by TheRaithRover,
  11. RaithRover – some more information! A friend has been looking at this and found “Whyte (Grange Rovers)” playing (and scoring a hat-trick!) for Stirlingshire in a 4:1 win over Dunbartonshire on 18 February 1905 at Boghead Park, Dumbarton. The match was described as a trial match for the Junior International team. However, it is quite possible that this was a scheduled inter-county match, with a cap awarded, that was also used by the selectors. This happened on other occasions. The trial matches were usually played in January & February ahead of internationals in March & April. Clearly this does not tie with the year (1904) shown on your cap. However, there could be a number of reasons for this: 1) The inter-county match may have been originally scheduled to be played in the earlier part of the season (1904) and was re-scheduled to 18 February 1905 for some reason or another but after the caps had been purchased. 2) Other caps I have seen often have the season (1904/05) rather than a single year. Maybe the year on your cap (1904) refers to the start of the season? This also does not get over the identical cap you found on the Internet for 1905. Again, there could be reasons for that: 1) The internet cap is in fact a Stirlingshire cap. 2) Both caps were made by the same manufacturer. Anyway back to “Whyte (Grange Rovers)”! He looks to be John Jarvie Whyte who signed for East Stirlingshire from Grange Rovers having previously played for Airth Castle Rangers and Skinflats Rising Star. He played for East Stirlingshire in 1905/06 & 1906/07. He was born in Bothkennar in 1883 and was married in 1906. So this does not tie in exactly with the dates you have and is not a Thomas but on the other hand he would not be the first person to be known by a name that is not on their birth certificate. Anyway some food for thought even if there are lots of ifs, buts and maybes!
  12. Oldest Junior Football Team?

    The first mention of the term Junior football that I can find in the British Newspaper Archive is of “Dundee Junior Football Club” playing in the early 1870’s. However, in November 1873 the name was changed to “Dundee United Football Club” and the club appears to have played in the early days of organised Junior football in Dundee until 1886. Why they chose “Junior” is a mystery as Dundee FC had not been formed so they did not have to differentiate themselves from another club. However, the reference to “Junior” appears to be a one-off and it does not come into common usage until the 1880’s as mentioned by other posters.
  13. Oldest Junior Football Team?

    The Scottish sports newspaper Scottish Referee (Friday 12 August 1892) says the following: "Mr E M’Phee the late secretary of the Vale of Clyde, has favoured me with the following interesting history of his club. The club was formed on 23rd March, 1885 by a number of very young lads resident in the village of Tollcross, and the first ground they secured was called Bogleshole, near the River Clyde. After finding their feet the youngsters in 1886 entered the Cambuslang and District competition…."
  14. Some more! Stirlingshire played Dunbartonshire in a Junior inter-county match on 14 May 1904 but there was no Whyte in the originally selected team or the one that took the field. The Scottish Juvenile Football Association were trying to organise a match in Bradford or Leeds for Easter Monday 1904. Unfortunately I cannot, so far, find if the match took place. If it did it would be promising for your cap.
  15. The second cap does looks remarkably like your photograph. However, another possibility is that the lettering stands for "Stirlingshire Junior Football Association" that would tie in with the Falkirk/Slamannan area. County select teams played each other at that time and caps would have been awarded. I have found a Whyte playing for Grange Rovers at that time but I am still trying to find a Stirlingshire JFA line-up with him in it.