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bluedragon

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About bluedragon

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    Scotland
  1. Here is an update on where we are in compiling definitive details of matches played by Junior Scotland since 1889. We have so far identified 266 International matches and 128 other matches (benefits, games against county JFA selects, Senior clubs, etc.). Of those 6 were postponed/abandoned leaving 263 Internationals and 125 other games. We have the players’ surnames for all the international matches but are missing names for 308 players in the other matches. In all we have identified 2,230 players who have played for Junior Scotland. We have worked to find forenames/initials of players not least to sort out the 34 “Browns” who have played. We now have a first initial or forename for all but 97 of those players. We are missing goalscorers for 91 of the 900 goals scored. The information is drying up but is still flowing slowly! We are currently trying to identify the trainers who accompanied the team from the very early days as well as the team captains. From more recent times we are trying to fill gaps in the sequences of managers. We have not forgotten the referee and have listed those, where we can find them, as well. We are close to having Version 3 available but if anyone thinks they can help please do let us know.
  2. Willie Gibson

    Willie Gibson was a Scot but played for the Irish League hence the "former Irish Internationalist" reference you found. He started off playing South of Scotland League football with Stranraer and Tarff Rovers. He had trials at Third Lanark but signed for Bangor in the Irish League for the 1947/48 season. By the 1949/50 season he had established himself as one of the best inside forwards in the Irish League and was selected to play for the Irish League against the Scottish League at Ibrox Park on 7 September 1949. In the middle of the 1949/50 season Willie left Northern Ireland to take up a business appointment back home in Scotland. In January 1950 Newton Stewart tried to sign him from Bangor but were not successful. His registration at Bangor had not been cancelled. Bangor put him on their retained list at the end of that season. Willie applied to the Irish League Rules Revision Committee to have his name removed to make him free to join a Scottish club but the committee upheld the decision. However, from what you have found it sounds as if these problems were soon resolved. It also looks as if he was still keen to play League football. In December 1950 he was given a trial by Hartlepools United. I think he is the same Willie Gibson who signed for Stranraer on 16 July 1955 before being released on 30 April 1957 having played 56 league games (2 goals).
  3. TheRaithRover - It was a pleasure to try and help and to ask others for their assistance. Another contact has been looking at this and has told me that the Scottish Juvenile Football Association match planned for Easter 1904 in Bradford was declined by the Bradford and District Association soon after it was suggested. This means that taken along with everything else we know you can be reasonably confident to say that the cap was presented by the Stirlingshire Juvenile Football Association for the match against Glasgow Juveniles in May 1904.
  4. A contact has given me some helpful information on the possible Juvenile connections to the cap. Stirlingshire Juveniles had an annual match against Glasgow Juveniles at this time. Unfortunately newspaper reports were brief and there were no team line-ups. From what I have found the 1904 match probably took place on either 7 May 1904 or a Saturday following closely after 14 May 1904 when Glasgow and Edinburgh Juveniles met at Atlas Park in Glasgow. It appears that the Stirlingshire Juvenile Football Association only had the one representative match each season and that could account for the year (1904) rather than the season (1903/04) being embroidered on the cap. So where does that leave us? The "S" in "SJFA 1904" almost certainly stands for "Stirlingshire" and perhaps "J" is more likely to be "Juvenile" as the "Junior" links do not quite match up with the information known by TheRaithRover,
  5. RaithRover – some more information! A friend has been looking at this and found “Whyte (Grange Rovers)” playing (and scoring a hat-trick!) for Stirlingshire in a 4:1 win over Dunbartonshire on 18 February 1905 at Boghead Park, Dumbarton. The match was described as a trial match for the Junior International team. However, it is quite possible that this was a scheduled inter-county match, with a cap awarded, that was also used by the selectors. This happened on other occasions. The trial matches were usually played in January & February ahead of internationals in March & April. Clearly this does not tie with the year (1904) shown on your cap. However, there could be a number of reasons for this: 1) The inter-county match may have been originally scheduled to be played in the earlier part of the season (1904) and was re-scheduled to 18 February 1905 for some reason or another but after the caps had been purchased. 2) Other caps I have seen often have the season (1904/05) rather than a single year. Maybe the year on your cap (1904) refers to the start of the season? This also does not get over the identical cap you found on the Internet for 1905. Again, there could be reasons for that: 1) The internet cap is in fact a Stirlingshire cap. 2) Both caps were made by the same manufacturer. Anyway back to “Whyte (Grange Rovers)”! He looks to be John Jarvie Whyte who signed for East Stirlingshire from Grange Rovers having previously played for Airth Castle Rangers and Skinflats Rising Star. He played for East Stirlingshire in 1905/06 & 1906/07. He was born in Bothkennar in 1883 and was married in 1906. So this does not tie in exactly with the dates you have and is not a Thomas but on the other hand he would not be the first person to be known by a name that is not on their birth certificate. Anyway some food for thought even if there are lots of ifs, buts and maybes!
  6. Oldest Junior Football Team?

    The first mention of the term Junior football that I can find in the British Newspaper Archive is of “Dundee Junior Football Club” playing in the early 1870’s. However, in November 1873 the name was changed to “Dundee United Football Club” and the club appears to have played in the early days of organised Junior football in Dundee until 1886. Why they chose “Junior” is a mystery as Dundee FC had not been formed so they did not have to differentiate themselves from another club. However, the reference to “Junior” appears to be a one-off and it does not come into common usage until the 1880’s as mentioned by other posters.
  7. Oldest Junior Football Team?

    The Scottish sports newspaper Scottish Referee (Friday 12 August 1892) says the following: "Mr E M’Phee the late secretary of the Vale of Clyde, has favoured me with the following interesting history of his club. The club was formed on 23rd March, 1885 by a number of very young lads resident in the village of Tollcross, and the first ground they secured was called Bogleshole, near the River Clyde. After finding their feet the youngsters in 1886 entered the Cambuslang and District competition…."
  8. Some more! Stirlingshire played Dunbartonshire in a Junior inter-county match on 14 May 1904 but there was no Whyte in the originally selected team or the one that took the field. The Scottish Juvenile Football Association were trying to organise a match in Bradford or Leeds for Easter Monday 1904. Unfortunately I cannot, so far, find if the match took place. If it did it would be promising for your cap.
  9. The second cap does looks remarkably like your photograph. However, another possibility is that the lettering stands for "Stirlingshire Junior Football Association" that would tie in with the Falkirk/Slamannan area. County select teams played each other at that time and caps would have been awarded. I have found a Whyte playing for Grange Rovers at that time but I am still trying to find a Stirlingshire JFA line-up with him in it.
  10. If that is a Junior International cap from 1904 then there were two internationals in that year: 26 Mar 1904 v Ireland at Celtic Park, Glasgow Won 4-1 (ht 2-0) 9 Apr 1904 v England at Villa Park, Birmingham Lost 1-2 (ht 1-0) Unfortunately there is not a White or Whyte in the 16 players we have who played in the two matches. They are: William Anderson (Parkhead) George Archibald (Edinburgh Myrtle) Campbell (Renfrew Victoria) James Dargue (Burnbank Athletic) James Ferguson (Strathclyde) Grieve (Duntocher Hibernian) Hutchison (Blantyre Victoria) William Johnstone (Darvel) Charles Keir (Cambuslang Rangers) Archibald "Punch" Kyle (Parkhead) William Lavety (Vale of Clyde) (possibly spelt Lavity and Laverty) James Lawrence (Glasgow Perthshire) Robert Mason (Burnbank Athletic) Alec Morton (Darvel) Roddie Paterson (Parkhead) Smith (Vale of Clyde) I could not find a White or Whyte in a quick look at the reserve teams that were named. If there was a call-off in the selected XI then the player in the same position in the reserve XI would take his place. One of the reserve XI would be selected to be the travelling reserve and I believe would have received a cap. I also could not find a White or Whyte in any of the trial teams in the games played to help select the teams. Do you have any more clues? I will take a deeper look at the information surrounding those two games and the players involved.
  11. That is very sad news. Jimmy Sievewright played for Junior Scotland 9 times and all against International opposition. Jimmy was on the winning side in all but one match. With 9 caps he won only four less than the record cap holders Bert McNab (Petershill) and Jackie Myles (Bonnyrigg Rose). He made his debut as a Baillieston player playing two matches in 1954 before moving to Kilsyth Rangers. He captained the team on four occasions. He played in 7 successive internationals and but for injury forcing him out of matches against the Republic of Ireland in 1956 and 1957 it would have been eleven consecutive matches in all games from 1953/54 to 1956/57 seasons inclusive.
  12. I am trying to find a photograph of a former Junior Internationalist that I would be able to use in an article (with acknowledgement of course). I have several photographs of him in Junior Scotland team line-ups but I am looking for an individual portrait, club line-up or action photograph. The player is Davie Mair who played in the immediate post-War years until the mid-1950’s. He started off at Larkhall Thistle before a short spell at Falkirk. He was reinstated as a Junior at Lesmahagow before moving on to Stonehouse Violet where he was capped. Of course, if anyone has any other information on him, apart from a photograph, I would be very pleased to hear from you. Thank you.
  13. Dunipace FC

    Thank you very much for the summary. I would indeed like to hear about his career post Rob Roy.
  14. Dunipace FC

    I wonder if I can get some help with research I am doing on a former ‘Pace player – Bert McNab. I am trying to get a better understanding of his football career path. I believe he joined Petershill from ‘Pace for the 1950/51 season. I do not believe he was a Peasy player in the 1955/56 season but may have returned to ‘Pace. I know he was the club coach later on. If anyone can help with a time line of his football career (playing and coaching) it would be very much appreciated. Thank you.
  15. Ladeside 18/19 thread

    This is not about Ladeside in 2018/19 but almost 100 years earlier in the 1919/20 season. On a separate thread we are collecting details of Junior Internationalists. We have the forename and surname of 28 Ladeside players who between them played 52 matches for Junior Scotland scoring 14 goals and providing one captain. However, we have a 29th player where we only have surname that we think might have been mis-spelt in our newspaper source. His surname is given as “Carroce”. Can anyone help please? Thank you.
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