SimonLichtie

There's not that many numbers between 22 and 24/ 25!

While it absolutely warms my heart everytime I see Eednud reguarly posting material from the Arbroath Archive (please continue to do so my good man, the more people who see and enjoy the archive the better ) it does make me feel like I should get my finger out my arse and make some further posts on this thread myself. It was after all this thread and a few other things that made me start looking into our history and creating our club archive.... Over the next wee while I'll try to post up the more interesting bits and pieces from our history that aren't on our archive as they don't quite fit anywhere currently... Mainly newspaper cuttings etc. from 1878 up until WW2. So, on 22nd July 1878 a meeting was held in the towns George Hotel, and low and behold a football club was formed! A summary of our first season as a club, taken from the AGM report in the summer of 1879. After our initial first home game was played at Woodville, the rest of the home games in our first two seasons were played on land at Hospitalfield. In late summer 1880 Gayfield was ready and the club played there until 1925 when 'Greater Gayfield' was built and the pitch moved to allow for a bigger ground. In 1882 the Forfarshire Football Association was formed: The famous Queen's Park were booked to play at Gayfield for the first time in 1884. The game ended up being played on 22nd May, and Queen's visited Gayfield around the time of the Queen's birthday for the next five years. Our fixture list for February - March - April 1885. Details of the post match reception given to Queen's Park after our game in 1885: A fixture card from the paper in August 1885: That'll do for now

It really is this simple. I've obviously no issue with anyone who thinks we'd be better off having a squad of less quality but more bulked out, it's a perfectly fine opinion to have. The main point I'm trying to make is that I think people don't seem to realise the knock on effect having a bigger squad has on the quality of player in the regular starting 11. It's a trade off and all about finding the right balance, but you can't have it both ways. Two or three quality first team regulars will win you more points over the course of a season than having a load of guys sitting about doing nothing the majority of the time, in my opinion.

This is all very well and good - but I notice you didn't answer the question In terms of other squads filling benches - that would point to one of two things. Going for the latter option out of the above - and having a preference for depth over individual quality, or having a youth system. Both of these choices are totally fine, but each of them obviously have huge drawbacks. Considering how successful we've been over the past 8 years I think the choices we've gone with have proven to be correct. I wouldn't want us to change what's worked for us to follow in the footsteps of clubs who haven't been half as successful in that time. One other thing I'd add that's really focused me with the squad size thing is people blaming the board. That makes absolutely no sense to me. Are people suggesting the board should've been interferring with who the manager did/ didn't sign? The board set budgets, the management work within these budgets to sign players. The management should have nothing to do with the budget they're given, and the board should have nothing to do with how the management use it.

The other downside is the entire squad containing less quality players as its bulked out. As I say - it's a choice as opposed to being able to have both.

How big do you think our squad should be? I'd much rather have 3 or 4 players of a good enough level on the bench to come off it than fill it with 9 bodies for the sake of it. I'd much rather guys like Stowe were getting regular games in order to improve than sitting on our bench every week behind 3 or 4 other guys, just waiting to potentially get a couple of 15 minute run outs between now and the end of the season. Budget wise it's obviously very basic - the bigger the squad, the larger the spread wage wise. Spread yourself thin and you'll miss out on players as you can't afford to sign quality due to an excess of bench filler taking up part of the budget. We've had our worst season injury wise in a decade, coupled with the fact we currently have 2 of our squad out on loan. Having those two loan players available for our match day squad would've helped in the past month, but again, budget. If Scott Allan was at the club, we'd probably need two other players out to balance things. The one that is really inexcusable is Balde, as his leaving outside the window and not being replaced was obviously nothing to do with budget at all. I guess another way to look at it - would you rather 2/3 players of the level of Bird/ Hylton came in this month (in the right positions) or 5/6 players of the level of Jacobs were signed? You can't have the quality players and the squad to cover every possible eventuality.

We've currently got a squad of 22 - people have to leave in order to bring in the 4-5 players we need. We can't have both - either people have to go out on loan or permanently, or we can't add much at all this window.

Yesterday kind of sums up one of the reasons I never miss a game - a true once in a lifetime moment for anyone who was there. A game that we'll all remember for the rest of our lives, and last night/ this morning whenever I've closed my eyes all I can vividly see is my view from right behind the goal of Ali Adams volley As has been said by others, in terms of the performance, once again yesterday had more positives than negatives to it which has been been the case in every game since McIntyre game in, apart from Morton. It was also good to see Hylton and Bird laughing and joking together at the end of the game - while last weeks 'incident' was obviously completely unacceptable, they're two real quality players and if we have them on the park and playing together we've got a far higher chance of winning games than if not. I hope everyone can put the whole thing behind us now and continue to move forward, it certainly looks like the squad/ management have done so. Squadwise, we're not coming into January and we'll obviously see players come and go. There's many factors that need to be taken into account, we're certainly not in a simple 1 in 1 out situation. We need to balance the budget, add key players in key positions and take into account our current injury situation and when people are likely to be due back. Personally I see it roughly as follows: Gaston - contracted till May 2024, would expect him to remain our number 1 keeper until then when highly likely he'll retire and focus on his coaching Adams - a fine backup keeper and all round good guy Hammy - Speaks for himself, hopefully here for a good few years to come ToB - As above and long term contract. Carrying an injury currently Ricky - Contracted till the end of this season, struggled during autumn and will have to assess things on return from injury. Injured at a disasterous time in terms of keeping his place in the starting 11, as you'd expect by the time he's available again we'll have fit ToB, Steele and a new CB signing and depending how they've been playing.... Steele - Contracted till end of next season, has shown some good qualities this year so far but struggled with his distribution and with the unfamiliar right back role which he's been playing which only further highlights the issues in his game; distribution and a real lack of pace on the turn. Young enough to improve in the areas he needs to and hopefully going forward he can play in his proper position. Gold - Would always keep/ have in my squad, a real team player. Stewart - See above Slater - I thought Slater was outstanding yesterday, and in the past few weeks he's upped things a level performance wise. Missing pre season mixed with at times being asked to play in a midfield 2 killed him in the first few months of the season but now really coming onto a game. Norey - Has really impressed during his run in the team in recent weeks, and seems to be able to play a number of roles in midfield and filling in at right back. Has gone from likely out the door to make way for someone else to someone I'd definitely keep for the rest of the campaign. Jacobs - Like Norey, has managed to impress in the past month or so in the game time he's had. He's clearly short on pace and coming towards the end of his career, but he's a good guy to have in the dressing room and shown he can still do a limited job at this level. Ultimately a player who will likely leave in January or at the end of the season if we can get a replacement signed. Balde - After initially impressing last year, really struggled this campaign before his loan move to East Kilbride. He should never have been loaned out I'm sure we all agree, but I think a longer term future at Gayfield probably doesn't exist for him. I think there's a chance we'll see him back for the second half of the campaign to show McIntyre what he can do, but realistically with the squad we have and the signings you'd hope we make, Balde would never be in the starting 11 for us. Lyon - A tidy enough player, but I suspect someone who will leave in January when his contract is up as McIntyre looks to use his wage elsewhere. A classic situation where if you miss pre season, you spend the entire first half of the campaign catching up and I don't think any of us can really fully judge the player who has had bits of game time here and there and isn't match fit Allan - Currently on loan at Larne, contract is up at the end of the season at which point he will almost definitely leave the club. Dow - A really steady hand when he came in January and he's a very reliable player and obviously knows the game really well, but a lack of pace means he's very much a wide midfielder as opposed to a winger. I think he'll struggle to fit into a Jim McIntyre team and I expect him to play a role off the bench once he returns from injury. Stowe - I think he's had enough chances to show something now and simply hasn't. We've not seen him create anything and he's still naive at this level to a lot of the defensive side of the game and his positioning both on and off the ball. There's a future for him in the SPFL, but I think a loan to a L1 or L2 club if possible would be most suited at this time. McKenna - Hopefully back around the middle of February, however when he does return there is no number 10 role for him to return too. Will be interesting to see where he fits into the system we're currently playing. Hylton - A quality player and I'll be gutted if/ when he leaves in January. The sort of player I'd love to see us be able to tie down to a 2/3 year deal. Bird - See above, but replace January with the end of the season. One of the best strikers I've seen in maroon considering the level we're currently at McIntosh - One of the best part time players in his position and comes with superb aerial ability. Really glad we've got him signed up past this summer Turan - Unfortunately I think since a real purple patch several months ago, Kenan has struggled. He struggles to hold the ball up as well as is required, and is not a huge goal threat. He did show what he can do in 3 or 4 games, but ultimately 3 or 4 good showings in 24 games isn't enough. We currently have 21 players on the books, with 2 out on loan and 6 injured/ carrying injuries through December (Gold, Steele, ToB, McKenna, Little, Dow). A squad of 21 is totally fine size wise - a squad of 19 is a couple short but still workable, especially with the amount of players we have who can play multiple positions. A squad of 19 with over a third of that squad injured is not fine - any team at this level with 6 regular first team players injured is going to struggle. Having a couple of 17/ 18 year olds who are miles off it sitting on the bench and playing 10/ 15 minutes here really makes no difference to the situation IMO. I'd expect come the end of January we'll probably be aiming to have a similar size of squad to what we have now. This means Balde either returns to the club or leaves permanently in January to free up space and 2 or 3 of what we have currently will need to move on. We can't carry a squad of 25 just because we have some short term injuries, so it'll still be a difficult balance until the summer for McIntyre when Allan's contract ends and he is in a better position to sign players on permanent deals. I think Dick left us in a really good position considering - a manager leaving a club who are big favourites to finish bottom, in a position where they're not bottom? A core squad of quality part time players? We were basically a defender short when he left, as well as the sillyness of loaning out Balde, and he'd lost the dressing room. The losing of the dressing room was much more of an issue than the players available - McIntyre has clearly shown that.

Agree with all of this - I think in the summer we signed better players than we had been previously, but Dick ultimately put together a worse team.

Excellent stuff. A well deserved 3 points - it's been a while Every player put absolutely everything into that to get the points and it seems like they really took the positives from Wednesday as opposed to getting too down about it. To be honest - in terms of quality Inverness are clearly a level above us currently. Their ability to move the ball around quickly and to break forward at pace means they're much more of a threat going forward than us, but we managed to nullify them for large spells of the game and score two good goals. We really dug in to get the 3 points in the second half and overall it was a superb team performance. I personally disagree with all of the 'Dick left us in a terrible mess' stuff. I think we've got 13-14 players at the club who range from low level Championship players who can do the job too high level Championship players we're lucky to have (Hylton and Bird). Obviously it's more likely Hylton goes than stays, but regardless I think we need to add 5 or 6 in the window, with several moving on also. We are missing some key players in key positions, but I think we've got 8 or 9 of a starting 11 already. If we can add the right 2 or 3 definite starters to the best 11 we have, as well as obviously bulking the squad out and giving ourselves the ability to make the subs a game warrents as opposed to what we have available regardless I think we'll be in as good as position as the others around us come the end of January. I felt it was the right time for Dick to leave because we should've been doing better with the squad we have - regardless of the holes that need addressed in January. Ultimately I didn't feel like he was able to motivate the players the way he could previously, and it was clearly showing in our performances. Obviously time will tell, but it looks like McIntyre has been able to motivate and organise the team better in his 3 games than Dick had been in his last 3 games in charge and I think that's been the biggest factor in our gradual improvement over that period. He's working with the same squad, one that's actually even more injury ravaged. The players we have available are not bad players, they're just several bodies short of being a squad. That is mainly down to having our worst season injury wise in years and partly down to Dick.

I can't remember the last time I felt this scunnered by a last minute goal..... I guess Kilmarnock in that game. If we'd just been beaten 2/3-0 as most expected it'd just be shrugged off, but that was a real kick in the balls. We definitely deserved something from the game, and the players put in a real shift over the 90 minutes. Cant particuarly fault anyone and if the game had ended a minute earlier we'd all be talking about the positives of such a performance and the point would've given the team a big lift after a bad run. f**k sake

Unfortunately today went as I expected since McIntyre's appointment. He's a manager who plays 4-4-2 with wingers fairly religiously, and as I've argued over the past few years we absolutely do not have the players to play that way. Until he gets his own players in, if he plays a 4-4-2 for the rest of this month we're gonna get absolutely demolished in the midfield against any other team in the division. In the mid-long term I've no issue with us playing with that as our shape, but we cannot do so until we've got several players in to cover key positions. I like both Gold and Slater, but they're not a midfield two at this level, and with most teams playing 3 in the centre of the park they're onto a hiding to nothing before the game starts. With the squad we have currently, I'd look to play the next 4 games with a fairly defensive 4-5-1 with another body in alongside Gold and Slater until at least January when we can make proper changes.

Craig was definitely at the game on Tuesday as usual. A shame to see him go, a top man who had been at the club for a number of years.

There is no viable reserve league for Arbroath to play in, so unfortunately it's an irrelevant debate. The reserve league is only played in by full time clubs with a lot of the reserve games being played in the afternoons, predominately Tuesday's. The idea of us having a squad of 25 odd players and players missing work to feature in reserve games while we pay them £50 quid a week for the priviledge is not feasible in any way, shape or form.

Unfortunately youth football at our level has changed massively since then. We would only be able to compete at the Advanced Youth Level, and realistically the chances of producing players that would then go on to play first team football for us in the Championship is incredibly low. I don't really see filling a full bench with a load of kids who aren't up to the required level as being any better than having less players than we can name on there. You're likely to end up with the same sort of quality as you could get signing the top amateur players in the region tomorrow to fill a bench. Having some youth teams to integrate the town further with the club and build on the excellent work the Trust have done with the player pathway would be something I'd really like to see - but ultimately it'd have no real relevance/ effect on the first team at all.

Full time team against a part time team lacking in any confidence whatsoever in a midweek game. A relatively solid first 45 minutes and second half we were totally overrun. Hardly a huge surprise overall and pretty much to be expected given the circumstances.

A side from Petrie, the only other name that's been mentioned to me that I found interesting was Andy Webster.... In all honesty, every other name on this thread or mentioned elsewhere doesn't really interest me or I don't think would ever happen..... I'm really hoping we get some applications from people of a good standard that no-one has yet mentioned. Billy Dodds, Jim McIntyre and suchlike are absolutely no's for me, and likewise I don't want some ex old firm player who thinks he's the bollocks to swan into the hotseat. As I say, I hope some other names come to the fore in the next few weeks, as the vast majority of options don't excite me whatsoever.

I'm glad that everyone, even those who've wanted Dick out for some time, are unanimous in this being a sad day. The vast majority of Dick's tenure at the club has been filled with successes and for that we should be extremely grateful. The last 6 years have been some of the most successful in the clubs history. Over the past month, rightly or wrongly, the pendulum has swung for a majority of the fanbase and that was obvious to see today. I normally speak to 10-20 different people pre/ during/ post match and not one of them was fully behind keeping Dick as our manager, and many of them spoken too before we lost today... Regardless of the fans, it's the players on the park that play the game and as a team we didn't show enough today to the management for them to continue in their roles. There wasn't enough fight in us, and as a team we're simply devoid of confidence after the past few weeks to get close to the levels we're capable of. At 5PM today for the first time I had tipped over to thinking a change was probably required, and within an hour it'd happened I don't think Dick should've left a day sooner and I think he deserved all the time he's had at the club, but 1320Lichtie has made some extremely good points regarding the stale feeling on and off the park and how we've come to this point and I think now was the right time. A sad way for things to end. Going forward, while I don't have a list of people I'd like to see apply or anything like it, and I certainly don't have any 'answers' to what we should do, I do know one thing for sure..... Stuart Malcolm cannot be our next manager. I have nothing but respect for Malky, and it must be remembered he is a title winning captain for the club, but as a manager he has failed in all three of the jobs he's had at clubs two and three levels below us. Due to the respect I have for the man, I won't say much more than simply say the prospect terrifies me, and it will continue to do so until we've appointed a new manager who isn't him. I would hope/ expect Malky to be in charge for the next two or three games as caretaker manager while we go through an interview process. The fairly standard thing would be to invite applications for a 7-10 day period then do two rounds of interviews prior to appointment, so I'd expect us to be looking at making an appointment in the days before/ after we play Morton away based on that, unless we have someone in mind we want to 'target'....

I totally get how people are moving towards a 'Dick out' situation with the last few weeks being poor and the good run of form we previously had completely evaporating. I don't completely disagree, especially with comments regarding things turning a bit stale and with last season being an extremely turgid one which people are very worried we're going to get another full campaign of. As someone who has felt game management and tactical outlook has been one of Dick's biggest weaknesses throughout his time at the club, I also understand why people are beginning to get very frustrated with this side of things. However - I am absolutely amazed that a loss to a team we were 7/1 to beat, with a team stacked with injuries to some of our best players, is the straw that broke the camels back for some. I can only assume yesterday is a tipping point for some people who were basically on the edge anyway as opposed to it swinging anyones mind. If we had just lost 4-1 to Spartans (I really hope I'm not tempting fate here) then I could fully understand the reaction as that's a game we're favourites to win and Spartans are two levels below us. However, as it is we lost a game we were big underdogs in...... it doesn't really phase me that much to be honest. I'm much more concerned about performances against teams around us like Morton and Ayr who we need to be looking to finish ahead of in order to stay up. The reality is we're never, ever going to consistently pick up results at this level, because apart from a once in a generation season which we've already had, we're not going to be challenging anywhere near the top. This means that we're going to lose more games than we win every season, and we will eventually get relegated. It's also ludicrous for us to be going into games against full time teams as massive outsiders and be furious at not getting results. It's not an Arbroath thing, it's a reality thing and would be/ has been/ will be the same for any other part time team at this level. Why should we be any different? We definitely have a much better squad than last season in my opinion (when injury free) but the division is a lot stronger than last year as well. It's going to be a real struggle to stay up whoever is in charge. We're currently 4 points off the bottom of the table with a game in hand - if prior to the start of the season I was offered that position a third of the way into the campaign I'd have taken it, it would be very naive not to. People refer to 'turning the corner' etc after a few wins, and how we're back to square one after a couple of defeats, and in my opinion this is just a hugely short term view on things. If we 'turned the corner' and were on form for the majority of the season we'd be up the top end, which is just completely unrealistic. Form and confidence are massive and if we put three good runs of form together over the campaign we stay up. The Ayr Utd and Morton games at the start of December are very important in my opinion - if we were to lose both of them (and the Dunfermline away game) then my opinion would probably move towards a change in management.

A frustrating few weeks.... Last weeks game against Utd is gone and I didn't really take a huge amount from it apart from leaving our full backs so massively exposed by playing two attacking wide players was somewhat naive. In previous years we've got our fair share of points from teams up the top end from being solid first and foremost, and building from that. We've twice setup against Dundee Utd with a 'give it a go' sort of vibe and been whacked for 10 so far... The 4-5-1 we setup with at Tannadice was just as attacking as the 4-4-2 at Gayfield, if not more. Today we obviously massively missed ToB. The distribution out from the back was really poor, and the defending in general somewhat suspect in the middle to say the least. I actually think over the 90 minutes the scoreline probably did reflect the game, and know I'll be in the minority with that opinion. While we've got some excellent attacking players this season compared to last - we cant just chuck them all on at once. Bird and Hylton are definite starters for me, and a 4-5-1 is the formation but we need to get a proper balance with more defensive minded player out wide opposite Hylton... we can then be doubling up on one side defensively at least, and have a player out there who can come into the middle when required to help the central two... as it is our two wide players are so wide and Mikey is pushing up that we've turned a 4-5-1 into a formation with less midfield than a 4-4-2.... I feel very sorry for Ricky currently He's really struggled in the past few weeks and he'll know himself he's a yard off where he was at last year. From what I saw today, I feel like he's had a lot of confidence sapped out of him this season due to there simply being some things he was able to do no problem previously that're now a struggle or sometimes simply not able to be done. He's been a solid performer for us at all levels over a literal decade and he's certainly not 'finished', but I think he's probably struggling with how to play things at times. Ultimately he has to adapt his game to where he's currently at, as many players have to when they're into their 30s. It's difficult - not just for him but also those around him who are maybe questioning what they should/ shouldn't be covering positioning etc. and where once everyone knew their jobs things have changed a wee bit. Personally I think I'd give Stewart - Steele - ToB - Hammy a go as the back 4 over the next few weeks and see how it plays out. I'd also look to give them a wee bit more cover in midfield. First injury/ suspension at the back or run of poor games will see Ricky come back in, it certainly wouldn't be the 'end', it's a long season....

I recently tried to get in touch with the STV archives via email but heard nothing back - have also been told by others they're not interested in anything that isn't financially worthwhile to them.... bit of a pisser with it being highly likely they have thousands of hours of old Scottish football footage from all levels (Scotland, top division, Football First, junior cup finals, Scottish Cup stuff etc etc.). Like many others I'm sure, I'd be more than happy to put in the work required to get this stuff publically viewable.... If anyone does have any sort of contacts at STV/ BBC etc...... let me/ us know!

Absolutely no issues with Malky returning to the club as a coach - hopefully something that works for both him and the club However, I would be hugely alarmed if there were any longer term ideas of him becoming the manager. Ultimately, he has failed in all three management jobs he's had, two of them being utterly dismal failures at a level three tiers below where we are currently.

Very good post The quoted bit - I completely forgot that to be honest and only looked at things up until 2020 If I remember correctly Crawford Rae essentially wrote the debt off when the club was given to the fans, and since then you've broken even as you can't afford not too? That being the case, it'll be really interested to see in the mid/ long term how well Morton do as a break even full time club with comparatively low incomings. Of course it doesn't change the fact that the 'success' of the 2000s and 2010s essentially cost millions of pounds that the club wouldn't have been able to afford if it wasn't for the Rae family. Also interesting to note that if you look at the years of biggish losses and compare them to the last few years of breaking even, you've not actually been significently worse on the pitch?

This full time chat needs to stop immediately - I am on the verge of writing my full time v part time essay, and I really can't be arsed as I've done it before and nothing has changed There is absolutely no business case whatsoever for Arbroath FC to be a full time football club. Quoting other insolvent/ debt ridden/ loss making full time football clubs and saying 'if they can why can't we' is ridiculous. As a business adviser and a sad b*****d, I (should ) have a good understanding of these things and everytime this chat comes up it gives me the fear. Have you ever looked into any of these teams finances? Cove are funded by an individual and lose hundreds of thousands of pounds a year. They are currently shite, yet their outgoings will be higher than ours this season and they'll make a six figure loss which said individual will cover with a directors loan. They are technically insolvent, with large debts owed. Hamilton are technically insolvent (you might see a pattern emerge here with these clubs who can supposedly be full time) and they owe around 1 million out in loans guaranteed by directors. They are also partly propped up by having a superb youth academy which has seen them receive 6 figure fees for guys like Gabriel Forsyth, Ryan One and Josh McDonald this season. Ayr United? This is quite easy - direct quote from their chairman from when their last accounts were published - 'This is the first time in 19 years that the club is reporting a positive balance sheet and that is a real sign of the progress being made.'. All they had to do was the classic accounting trick of having their assets re-evaluated to make up 360k from no-where in order to make the balance sheet look positive instead of negative Essentially they have run at a loss for 20 years. Greenock Morton owe literally multiple millions of pounds to one individual benefactor family. In 2020 this amount was 2.7 million pounds. The Rae family only became involved with Morton in 2002. That is a significent loss to be making over that period of time. Raith Rovers have, on average, made a £150k loss every season since 2005. Essentially they lose around 1.5 million pounds every decade as things stand. Inverness..... this is actually the worst by some distance. They lost 835k in their last reported financial year, and on the same accounts they reported net liabilities of 1.7 million pounds. Their cup run last season which would've netted them hundreds of thousand of pounds? All used to pay off a smallish percentage of the directors loans which are propping the entire club up. Airdrie - I don't know enough about to make a proper comment to be honest and would need to do a bit of digging to do so. The above is really only scratching the surface with the basic figures, however the basic facts all show that every club mentioned are insolvent, laden with debt and/ or relying on one or two individuals to bankroll the club. If the aspiration is to go full time and emulate any of those mentioned above, then I'm out This is without even discussing quality of player, hugely increased fixed variable costs etc. There is no business case whatsoever for Arbroath FC to be full time - the only situation it would be possible in would be if we became entirely reliant on one individual to bankroll things with no guarantee of success, and the potential of ending up in a worse position on the park and a guarantee of being miles worse off it. I'll leave it there - but honestly I could write a book on this Long story short - based on the factual information we have on the balance sheets and on the park, Arbroath FC being full time would result in large financial losses and absolutely no guarantee of actually being any better whatsoever on the park, and a decent chance of us actually being worse.