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tumbleweed

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  1. See what happens when you just batter out a response without reading things properly !
  2. A real independent report into policing because you can't be bothered reading the report that was produced and instead just complain about it ? Who would you like to conduct a review of policing football games - Jeanette Findlay because she would fit the narrative into your way of thinking? What other organisation regularly has responsibility for the crowds at sporting or other events? FAC? Obviously police match commanders have the most experience of this and should be able to identify issues and make recommendations about how these could be addressed. Which the reports author actually did. So what else did you expect him to say? I note you haven't suggested how the police go about things, just that what they do should be reviewed by someone, anyone. If there is such a review and you don't like what it says - obviously you would need to actually read it for yourself - what then? Ask for another one? Like many contributors to this thread, just keep complaining and blame the police and stewards for everything, its clearly too difficult to do anything else.
  3. If you try and make at least some form of sense it would be easier for people to understand what you are trying to say.
  4. I've asked twice on this thread for people to explain how they want the police to police them at the football, but other than a request that they deal with the real problem rather than suspecting everyone of being a thug, there have been precisely no suggestions. Unfortunately some fans are the real problem - no-one else is throwing things or jumping over the hoardings to have a go at players like we saw tonight - and while its easy to point and throw stones, literally and figuratively, its not so easy to suggest an alternative. I totally understand and accept that the police could do their job better, as I am sure employees of every organisation could, but there needs to be a reasonable alternative before change takes place and if fans organisations such as FAC won't sit down and give their point of view, then it can't be a surprise to them that they are not taken seriously by the authorities. I've spoken to Jeanette Findlay and think she and her organisation have something to add which could benefit fans, but sadly she is jumping up and down outside the window shouting obscenities at those inside, when she could have a seat at the table and influence change from the table. I read her being quoted as saying that Police Scotland "view fans as criminals and potential sources of disorder and that’s a problem for us on an ongoing basis" and she's at least partially right, as I said above.
  5. Oooft, what an article that is. Providing a 'computer generated' result prefaced by saying it should be taken with a pinch of salt means it is simple guesswork, pin the tail on the donkey, made up nonsense. Typical TS trying to elicit a response by being 'controversial' and hoping fuds phone in to discuss it, however I'm sure no-one up here gives it any credence at all
  6. Gees. Where to begin. Was it a surprise to you that one of the most experienced football commanders in Britain is.....er a policeman..and might have something constructive to say in a report he was commissioned to write? He did. A lot of it was critical. You've clearly not read it and have relied on the media to cherry pick a 'scandal' for you. You think its 'scandalous' because he's saying if you don't like the way the police do things just now, then here are the alternatives which you might find are worse? Really? Its not a threat, he's laying out what may be the alternative to their current approach. Civil liberties seem only to work one way with some people and while your concern for all football fans from all clubs is laudable, I would be interested to know what you want the police to do, other than just let you act in whatever you or any other football supporter wants. Its easy to criticise, and sometimes its very easy to do so, but a workable alternative is seldom provided. Indeed, the conflict between FAC and the police is totally regrettable with each side seeing the other as 'the problem', but until both decide to sit down with the other to actually talk, then its never going to change and leaves the whole process going round in circles.
  7. Wattoo - you're shocked because you imagine I'm justifying something that I'm not. If you think you live in a police state in modern day Scotland you really need to get out more, but what I was saying was that if we as supporters don't at least try to identify how to sort the problem out, or offer potential common ground between fans and authorities, then we shouldn't be surprised if they do it their way, which isn't likely to be pretty. Genuine question - how would you like the police to do their job? If they adopt a laissez-faire attitude and just let fans do what they want but this results in someone getting killed, will we be saying "oh that's a shame but its better than me as an individual getting filmed/searched/herded/told how to support my team?" Unlikely. In the opposite to a hands-off approach, would the Celtic fans who recently suffered violence from the police in Europe - or the fans of any club who report football related police brutality abroad - prefer that every week or the Scottish approach, flawed though it might be? You mention emotion and I imagine that most fans have experienced times when it has got the better of them at games, it certainly has happened to me, however I can genuinely say that I have never even considered throwing a coin or bottle or holding up an offensive banner or hanging an effigy off a stand, have you? That's not emotion, there's plenty of preparation involved in some of it, so we can't brush it all off as that. You are right regarding how our issues are reported and I would be surprised if Scottish journalists realise how parochial, patronising and often pea-brained they appear, but again you are making part of my point for me by venturing into international standard whataboutery in pointing to others and saying "aye but what about thaim, they're worse". Who cares? Why can't we look at our own issues without pointing to others? Probably because if P&B instituted a rule that threads would automatically close if anyone indulged in whataboutery, I would be quite confident most would shut almost immediately, particularly if it related to fan behaviour !!
  8. I think people would expect any report into policing to be honest. The fact you admit the police will never admit their own failings only underlines the point of those who refused to take part. The police are not fit to assess themselves. Mmm...I actually asked what people thought they would say in the report, not that they would never admit their own failings. The report IS critical in parts but that's not good enough as by your answer, you have stated that the report is dishonest. Others have called it a whitewash. I have only read one person saying they have read it, so the inherent bias of some people cloud how they approach any such report and they would rather sit sniping from the sidelines rather than have an input. A report which cannot speak to all sides cannot by definition be fully inclusive, but whose fault is that? Not wanting to take part in discussions concerning fan safety because some Celtic fans are involved is mind-blowing, as is the constant references by fans groups to the behaviour of OTHERS, never, ever themselves. It seems some are completely incapable of discussing points without referring to their opposite numbers because it is all one big conspiracy allowing the authorities to pursue their anti-Catholic AND anti-Protestant agenda. Whenever the police/government/SFA/SPFL raise their heads to try and get a consensus or even a sensible discussion about issues they are swallowed up by this p!sh and we never get anywhere because the OTHER side are always worse. If you read this thread, and others concerning offensive behaviour, few people seem to admit that they as fans might have some responsibility for what happens during a game, its all the fault of the police, stewards, the other supporters, 'thaim', and their grannies, but never them as an individual or collective. Fans groups, while representing their members, are seldom able to realise there is a bigger picture outside their own navel-gazing, Neanderthal nonsense and issue statements as if they have some divine right to do whatever they want. As far as I am aware, it wasn't a cop/steward/referee/linesman/MP/MSP that threw any of the articles we have seen recently, or created banners with offensive messages on them, or sung any songs they know to be offensive, despite claiming they are part of traditional self-expression - on each occasion it was a FAN or FANS. Someone who went to watch a game like many of us on here do, wanting to see our team win like we all do, but thinking that throwing a coin/bottle/swear word or offensive term is an extension of their support for their team and so cannot be criticised. If there were no such incidents there wouldn't be a continued spotlight on fan behaviour, but because there are such incidents then ALL fans can expect to see the police and stewards be prepared to look for issues. I know the police and stewards are not perfect and sometimes seem to be against fans who are doing little bar supporting their team on the pitch, but when the bottle at Easter Road or coin at Rugby Park could have come from anyone in a large crowd what do you expect the authorities to do if the person who did it isn't identified? The people round about them must have known who it was, but as usual no-one wants to take responsibility for this because its easier to blame the police/stewards/Stevie Clarke etc etc etc Its sad but true and until we can control those idiots who cannot help themselves throwing articles, or religious slurs, or derogatory comments about someone's mother, or hanging effigies off stands, then be prepared for the authorities to decide what is and is not acceptable and take whatever action they think is necessary to address it. Its not ideal, but its hardly surprising.
  9. GordonS - that's far too sensible a post - imagine not having a knee jerk reaction, it'll never catch on. thisGRAEME - dear oh dear. You've made my point for me. Thanks.
  10. The state of this thread is embarrassing: personal bias abounds and it seems that no matter what the police do there are 100 barrack room lawyers - or a few tubes on P&B - saying they should do the exact opposite. As one who has never had to police or steward a game, I would hate to do so, given the level of bampottery evidenced at many games I've been to, for no other reason than those involved are at the football and its what they do, its their traditions, man. The police can clearly be better at their job on occasion, but they can't be incompetent both ways. Heavy handed but standing with their arms folded? Gees. Treating fans differently to the normal man in the street? No way !! How many times are there 50, 000 people standing in the street with 3/4 of them shouting, threatening and goading the other 1/4 who are giving it large right back in the safe and certain knowledge that there is a line of stewards/police between them if there is any hint of actual bother? Never. It is a different event by its very nature so the fact that it is policed differently can't be much of a surprise. The comment one poster made about being able to police the Ryder Cup themselves sums up the situation perfectly, but not in the way it was intended. That crowd could have a drink, stand inches from players they like, and some they probably don't, but can anyone claim that how those people behave is in any way the same as a football crowd would, given their delight in giving opposition players absolute pelters? No doubt some of the people who go and watch the golf will also go to the football regularly, but they wouldn't dream of behaving like they do there for 90 minutes in a 'normal' crowd. Anyone who says otherwise is deluded. If you think about why the police don't head straight into a crowd to pull out a couple of wallopers, it might be that there are situations which demand an immediate response and others which can be dealt with later. How many cops do you think are actually there? Do you think if they did wade in every time for every situation then those surrounding the perpetrator(s) would just stand to the side and say "bash in officer, the man's a rascal'? Or would it just turn into a complete clusterflick with more and more people needing to be dealt with, leading to more and more police needing to be there, leading to more and more conflict ad infinitum The impact of plenty of blue lights might dissuade some from getting involved, while in other situations it could just be like lighting the blue touch paper. Obviously there are times when people aren't happy with how football is policed, it will never be to everyone's liking, but a lot of times groups seem to be treated according to the lowest common denominator and many football crowds are not akin to the audience on Mastermind. Like a lot of situations, if more people actually looked themselves in the mirror about how they act before, during and after games then the need for the police to be involved would decrease, but seeing as personal responsibility isn't something many football fans care to include when they walk out the door to a game, I assume things won't change and we will be in the circle jerk of 'police bad', 'fans bad' etc etc for ever. As football fans we should have a big part to play in making ourselves as easy to deal with as we can, but a lot of times that just isn't the case and for some its exactly the opposite. I am certain that if the police acted in the way some want them to, there would be an equal reaction from others demanding they do the opposite. As for such reports, what did you expect them to say - "we're sh!te and we know we are"? Incoming...………………………..
  11. Why is it horrific? He is not defending the tackle, he is criticising the way Dundee fans reacted to him being seriously injured and how he felt about that. Its not really all that difficult to understand. In the article it is explained that he is using his past to dissuade younger players from going down the same route which is not a bad use of his time, and your reaction says more about your inability to separate a game from real life. If anything is horrific, it is that.
  12. Last season And only last season too. Sadly not to be today but hey ho, at least we got to hear some witty banter. Or something.
  13. Former Rangers and Scotland winger Neil McCann Brian Rice has seen something tactically that needed to be addressed [at half-time], he's done it, and it's helped them massively, stopped the gaps, made them a lot more solid. Compliments to Rice and his side for stopping the bleeding and making this more of a contest. What a walloper. We were 4 DOWN when Rice saw something tactically. It wasn't rocket science. We ended shipping 5, so the compliments of a failed manager don't really mean very much. Wonder how much he gets paid for that complete nonsense.
  14. Hatred for Rangers is neither irrational or blind - for many it is built on years of listening to putrid sectarianism pouring out of their home stands and from their away support, from being subjected to violence and abuse by Rangers supporters - just because, for instance, my wee club has the temerity to win at Ibrox - and from seeing times when numbers of Rangers supporters gather together that they almost inevitably regress towards the 17th century. They may not wish to accept it, but it is true nonetheless. Playing the victim after decades of bullying is unseemly, but is clearly happening. They seem unable to accept responsibility for their own actions and seem bemused when people begin to question them. Sectarianism is not a problem experienced across Scottish football, instead it is something which is synonymous with both Rangers and Celtic and for which they have equal responsibility, although neither have or will honestly try to sort it, given that support for either club seems in no small part based on identifying with their particular 'tribe'. Interestingly in this whole sh!tshow, no individual seems to accept that they are part of the problem, its always 'sections' of the support. a 'minority', or the ever present whataboutery concerning 'thaim' - whoever they may be. No sensible person should try and explain or defend their own sides position by mentioning anyone else - simply address your own issues and the rest will have to follow, but neither side are capable of doing so. We will no doubt have to listen to all sorts of nonsense tomorrow but will later be told it was only the minority - when it is generally the majority. I have no love for either side of the divide because whenever you query one, you are automatically and unquestioningly thought to be the other. The whole thing is pathetic and if the current climate leads to some change, I would suggest that Scottish football would be the better for it. I won't hold my breath though.
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