Gunner

This whole thing has been crazy. I think there's 2 narratives to consider... 1/ the rules/laws situation 2/ the 'should they or shouldn't they' have appealed? - 1/ It seems that a rule was broken through no fault of Harestanes. We don't know if / when they told the ref (there seems to be conflicting information on this). So, IF they didn't tell the ref till after the game - it's underhand. IF they did tell the ref early on and again at half time - then I think they have every right to feel unhappy about the conditions in which the game was played (considering that according to Harestanes they raised it multiple times). However, I also think that if they were so upset then they should have not continued the game until flags were out (which I am sure they would now do if in this situation again). I think it's also important to recognise that according to Harestanes it was 0-0 when they informed the referee - and that they did not start to protest when 1-0 down. Had the home team / referee sorted the flags out when it was raised this whole thing would never have happened. Had the home team / referee ensured there was flags there in the first place, then again, this wouldn't have happened. - 2/ The 'moral' or 'integrity' decision to follow through with an appeal or not. That's what everyone, man, woman and dog has jumped on. It's buried the facts of what happened in the game. And I've purposely not got involved in the 'morals' of their decision. People were jumping on a bandwagon, and turning it into an east v west thing, a wee team v big team thing... people were using it as a chance to get a kick in to a team who have sat near the top of the amateur game for a good while. So, if public comment is to be believed then it seems everyone has a well calibrated moral compass and nobody else would have done the same thing as Harestanes. Yet, a lot of these same people will try and gain every small advantage during every game they play - from things like claiming for decisions that they themselves know are not theirs. I ran a poll, that the results showed 1 in 4 would have appealed in the same way Harestanes did. Yet, if you were to go with public opinion on the comments - you would think it would be more like 1 in 1000 that would do the same. - I understand how this mistake in relation to corner flags can be made. Perhaps in the LEAFA flags are not mandatory - but in the CSAFL they are. Perhaps in the league the refs part of flags are not mandatory too. In my opinion, the moment no corner flags were raised with the referee (assuming it was during the game) - it should have been sorted out there and then, and maybe the ref thought it was sorted once he'd spoken to both teams believing that the flags were not mandatory. I have read that he is an excellent and experienced referee, and I've no doubt that if he was aware flags were mandatory that he would have got them. For what it's worth - as I said on twitter yesterday, if I was the ref I must admit I would have made the same error. Although my league requires them, I thought the Scottish Cup games were played to IFAB laws - and could have been played without flags if both teams are happy to do so. I've since learned that in SAFA Competitions that flags are mandatory. - Preventing things like this in future? How about consistent laws across leagues that are part of the SAFA. Specifically laws/rules relating to the playing of a game and necessary equipment... rather than have some leagues having corner flags mandatory and some not. I think local rules are great when used to tackle specific challenges that a league is facing - maybe the use of trialists for example. I think a consistent set of rules relating to the conditions in which a game must be played across the SAFA and all member leagues would help all involved and prevent something like this happening again. Maybe on the team lines of leagues and the SAFA competitions - having any local rules that could differ from league to league or league to cup on them would help notify the teams and referee of anything different than they might be used to. - And finally, I can't wait for the remainder of the Scottish Cup this year. It's as open as it's ever been. Some smashing teams in it, some new teams in it at this stage and no doubt more than a few will be thinking that they realistically can win it. Fintry for me are dark horses in it.. knocking Thorn out who are the Caley premier champs. Fintry who were formally Douglas Ams that beat Colville only 2 or 3 seasons ago... have shown again that they can compete and beat the tops sides. Can't wait for the draw and best of luck to everyone in it.

https://twitter.com/jordanhillafc/status/1216860151514378240?s=21

Not at lower levels of football - as outlined by IFAB in laws of the game. the mandatory use of flags can still be a local rule though.

This. Is what my earlier post was referring to.

Flags by law are not essential ‘at lower levels of football’ - a consequence of this is each league and association have Their own local rules. Some leagues will allow games without flags and some don’t.

Following from Gus75.... I have a question - and I’m interested to know how it would play. (It may well be a lot of shite)... ...but in the Scottish this season, there’s been games played that have been ended incorrectly (extra time played when it should have went straight to Pens). In these cases, neither losing team has appealed. But the games were recast once it was brought to the SAFA attention (either through the refs own report or maybe even social conversation). In one of these cases, the losing team actually put it to the SAFA that they had no issue about the result and weren’t seeking to get back in. So, it looks like there are certain things that can happen that will result in a decision being made - regardless of an appeal being submitted or not. Now, what I am wondering is.... could this scenario be one of those scenarios that a decision is made regardless of an appeal being made or not? Simply because the competition rules state that flags must be used. Does it come down to the fact that the pitch didn’t have the prerequisite equipment in place in order to fulfil the fixture in accordance with the rules - and as such will be recast? Thoughts?

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5166165/amateur-team-scottish-cup-corner-flags/amp/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true it’s in the news now

I think a big emphasis will be on when (And if) they telt the ref. i.e If they’ve noticed and kept it up their sleeve till after the game - it would leave a sour taste in anyone’s mouth. Or, if they’ve told the ref beforehand, early on or during the game they’re not happy theres no flags (especially when the game was still at 0-0) - and the referee done nothing about it.... then I can see why they would want to complain about it. Both scenarios above paint Harestanes in different lights... neither are helping the ref though. With IFAB making it acceptable that corner flags not always being available at ‘lower levels of football’ - it means that the association and the amateur leagues who are members can have their own local rule and position on this. I’m not aware of the LEAFA stance, but I know the CSAFL has it in their constitution that flags are mandatory... no flags no game (that might be why Harestanes have picked up on it). Contrary to that, I know the SSMAFL have it that if there are no flags the game should still go ahead and the home team reported by the referee (and they’ll probably be fined by the league). Anyways, does anyone know if an appeal has actually gone in? IF so and IF it’s to be replayed, am foning a sicky and heading through to watch that - what a game that’ll be!

You might be right. We’ll never know tho

If true. And I stress, IF - because it’s just a rumour at this stage. Regardless of the opinion of wether a team should or shouldn’t protest.. Without corner flags, the game shouldn’t have went ahead. From Dinse comments above, they may well have asked the ref about the flags at Half Time too... if so, surely the ref would have sorted out? Interesring to see where this goes.

Dimensions and floodlight position I guess would be disputable (unless the ref or someone else can measure park lol). SAFA competition rules state corner flags need to be there though (I think).

AM Soccer Club 1 v Gartcosh 1 Bannockburn 2 v Tollcross Thistle (Edinburgh) 4 Braehead 1 v Kilmarnock United 1 Castlemilk Dynamo 0 v Shortlees 0 Drumchapel AFC v Muirieston GAME OFF Eastfield 2 v Glasgow Harp 2 EK Thistle Colts 0 v Sandys 3 Giffnock North v Cowie GAME OFF Glasgow Island 1 v Merpro 2 Laurieston Thistle 1 v Harestanes 0 Lumphinnans 1 v EKYM 3 Menzieshill 2 v Uddingston Anvil 1 Oban Saints 5 v Renfrew Town 1 Tarbolton v Glenburn Miners Welfare GAME OFF Thorn Athletic 1 v Fintry 2

So many bites. Stop replying, and he'll go away. Simple.

full sat draw - I think there's a good few 'tie of rounds' - or potential ones. New Farm v Glenburn BAFC v Tollcross Edi Uni v Sandys Dynamo/Fallin v Shortlees Laurieston v Harestanes (sorry Alford!) ...imo all smashing games to have and means a lot of good sides will be heading out!!

1/ haldane 2/ mcarthur 3/ Convery 4/ Murphy 5/ Paton 6/ Mathieson 7/ Dyszynski (sorry, awful spelling) 8/ crawford 9/ blair 10/ mcclure 11/ scott - 12/ hurst 14/ law 15/ ridge 16/ steele 17/ buchanan

To be voted on by clubs still.

https://twitter.com/Scottish_AFF/status/1192830079669329923?s=20

Yes.

Id agree with this. Seen them this year, excellent side - good players, and very well organised.

I think EKYM are the dark horses for it this year.

It is if his hand is unnatural or above the shoulders.

Blantyre rgm v Oban.. top 2 in the first division also be a cracker

The top part Over rules the second part and the second over rules the third and so on. I.e: if something happens that’s always a foul, it’s always a foul - nothing in part 2 or 3 will stop or change that. It’s a foul because the players arm is making the body unnaturally bigger - doesn’t matter that it came off his foot. Good luck on on your exam, the games needing more refs. It’s something I’m really enjoying having played for long enough.

Here's the handball law in full and my interpretations. Simply, there are some things that always are a foul, some things that usually are a foul and some things that normally aren't a foul providing one of the other 2 circumstances hasn't happened. In the game being discussed. The ball hitting the arm from the foot of the player, wouldn't normally be a foul - unless for the fact that the hand/arm has made the body unnaturally bigger which is almost always a foul. - Worth pointing out, that position of referee has a massive factor on these decisions. Often there's no bad position, a referee will try to be in an area of the pitch to not only see whats going on there and then but also with some anticipation of where play will go next. Sometimes these incidents occur on the far side of the player from where a referee is positioned - it makes it near on impossible to know if the hand/arm was making the body bigger or not... and even thought the refs position is probably good for the play that's going on at that second - it's just bad luck.

You cant pick and chose parts of the law to back your point up. Above the part you quoted it says: It is usually an offence if a player: • touches the ball with their hand/arm when: • the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger The above offences apply even if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close. - The part you quote only applies if one of the above offences hasn't happened. In this case, the arm being so far off the body has made it unnaturally bigger (i.e a bigger target to miss) - therefore correctly awarded as a foul - even though it's came off the players own head or body (including foot). -