capt_oats
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Posts posted by capt_oats
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3 hours ago, AW saint said:
Having seen the highlights back several times I cannot believe we were yet again denied another hand ball.
This happens way too often. We would be sitting comfortably 4th if these decisions were called correctly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect5 -
2 hours ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:
Kettlewell is clearly not going to get the sack, so I don't waste much energy thinking whether he deserves it or not.
What you do have to remember is that despite how much he can baffle us with his formation, selection and substitutes, this year he's had a hell of a lot thrown in his direction. He's had to reduce the squad in quality and numbers, he's had several long term injuries and he's even had to contend with two of the bright spots in a poor run being recalled from loans in January.
I can't speak for everyone's aspirations but I often see Motherwell fans on here and elsewhere saying they'd be happy with 10th. I won't be relaxing until the arithmetic confirms it, but we are very much looking on course to do that now. I think it's hard to be critical of the manner in which we've gone about it.
If his decisions have cost us points this season, they've also won us points. I posted last week that goals and assists from substitutes alone are worth 10 points to us this season and that stat doesn't even cater for the likes of yesterday - O'Donnell changing position and being there to assist.
Since we got beaten by Ross County in December, we have actually become really hard to beat. It took Celtic until 94 minutes to take the lead and we would have had an equaliser against Aberdeen were it not for a VAR anomaly. Rangers and Hearts did deserve to beat us but didn't give us a going over. Those account for all of our league defeats since. I think it's 19 points in those 15 games since - that's not relegation form. We would really be getting rid of Kettlewell for something that happened months ago - which doesn't sit well with me.
Not being delighted with his decisions doesn't always have to equate to him deserving the chop. I'm not sure if anyone was expecting the race to survival to be pretty and free flowing with a young manager and young players. I think the difference between this Andy other seasons (like last) is that we've previously gone on a fantastic run to beat any relegation fears, whereas this time we are doing just about enough.
Me. Agreeing with every word @crazylegsjoe_mfc just wrote there.
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Fair play, this is an amusingly niche stat.
Moult's best league return in a full season was 15. With 7 games still to go it's not impossible that the big man matches that.
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Get him on the
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1 hour ago, Handsome_Devil said:
I can't bring myself to actually wish for clubs down south to go bust but it's very hard to have sympathy - they all jumped on the bandwagon for this madness and plenty were very happy to do so when they thought they'd benefit.
There are vague parallels to the current investment discussions in Scottish football though so I certainly wouldn't be gleeful either. There's plenty of us who will soon be making uncomfortable choices about risking the long-term future to avoid losing competitiveness and sinking like a stone short-term.
Not to flog this dead horse again but in a way this is why the general messaging of McMahon's video seemed ill judged given we're a fan owned club with The John Boyle Experience still in relatively recent memory.
Kieran Maguire broke down the Wrexham accounts the other day and while I've no doubt that Van Wilder and Mac are good for the money presenting a scenario where there's £9m owed to the owners who are charging £8k p/w in interest as aspirational (as McMahon did - even if it was in a quirky or tongue in cheek way) definitely jars (IMO).
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48 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:
Not saying they're saying they're right or wrong but looking at a single set of accounts without all kinds of context and caveats is rather pointless...if someone is determined enough to dig that out and pore through it in detail fair play (I'm certainly not!) but i certainly don't see reason for concern because a headline number.
Aye, I mean as I said I find it interesting in that there seems to be a scramble to assign blame and I'm not posting this to be sceptical about us appointing him. It's more that it's quite a pivot from the positive noises that were coming from Shrewsbury fans when he stepped down (McGarry was talking about how beloved Caldwell seemed to be in his Herald mailout yesterday).
From my POV I'm quite curious to hear from him and get a handle on how he approaches the role compared with Burrows and Weir.
There's a lot of "how did this happen" Helen Lovejoy-ing in this thread on the Shrewsbury forum.
https://blueandamber.proboards.com/thread/107032/accounts-due£800k increase in wages, £500k increase in "administrative costs". Again, that's interesting compared to the approach we've seen this season with Weir in the role as interim.
The main gist of the rumour, innuendo and slander seems to be directed towards their former manager Steve Cotterill and Caldwell. Cotterill for running up the costs and Caldwell for signing off on it.
It looks like it's been this statement from Shrewsbury's owner following Cotterill's exit that's lead their fans to jump to the conclusion that something was amiss:
QuoteA statement from our Chairman, Roland Wycherley MBE following the departure of manager Steve Cotterill.
As a lifelong supporter, as well as Chairman and custodian of Shrewsbury Town Football Club, it is my first priority and duty to secure and protect the club for future generations.
From time-to-time circumstances arise when difficult and unpopular decisions have to be made to safeguard the very future of our club.
We currently find ourselves in such a position and we would be failing in our duty if we shirk those decisions.
Unfortunately, because of confidentiality restrictions, it is not always possible to keep our supporters fully informed.
Premature leaks and gossip only exacerbate the situation, fuelling different agendas.
Going forward, be assured that management structures and new football strategies are already in place - the rationale for the actions we have taken will become evident in the coming weeks and months.
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I know folk are pretty much over the whole CEO/Investment chat but while admittedly very much looking at this from a distance it's been mildly interesting to see Shrewsbury fans scapegoating Ewan McVicar's Da after the £3.02m loss they've just posted for the year end when he left the club.
Quite timely given he officially starts with us next week.
Lots of finger pointing, rumour and blame being dished out by a support who don't seem to have worked out that lower league English football is just deeply, deeply fucked given their loss isn't anywhere close to being an outlier for their league (Oxford just posted a £6m loss) or the league below *waves at Van Wilder and Mac* and Stockport lost £4.5m.
Either way it seems Shrewsbury's cash balance has gone from £1.6m to £80k. Turnover was £6.2m (which is roughly the same as our £6.4m over the same period).
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I had the dubious pleasure of watching Blyth playing for the 20s ages ago against Thistle and he was, genuinely, hopeless.
Despite being a "senior" player he looked completely lost.
Even the goal he scores looks like it's a mistake.
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12 hours ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:
Mega bust is very harsh.
I wasn't disappointed to see him go, but he never got a run of starts and scored three very crucial league goals which all won us points.
3 minutes ago, well fan for life said:Imo with Wilkinson there is a good player at our level there somewhere. Quite skilful and could finish well. Wrong time, wrong club. Clearly he wasn't happy, Kettlewell had lost the run of himself sticking him in at centre mid when we had Davor sitting on the bench.
Aye. This is pretty much where I am with Wilkinson.
He wasn't here very long, his calf exploded but IMO he had enough about him that you could see why we brought him in. He chipped in with some well taken, important goals and ended up being played totally out of position at the point when Kettlewell lost the run of himself before moving him on for a nominal fee.
Like I say, fine.
I'd have though that had he stuck around he'd probably have ended up being a Chrissy Long equivalent (a fellow #99).
He's very much a no harm, no foul signing in my book.
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@Casagolda's post above has me thinking about the big 'what ifs' of the season, eg: what if Robinson's hammer throwers didn't break Mika, what if Kettlewell had introduced Gent and Dave to the starting line-up before he ended up having to hail mary them in post County.
I don't think it's wide of the mark to say that Biereth was, legitimately, one of the best strikers in the league. I know there's been chat along the lines of he must have ended up with us by mistake but there's a fair amount of credit due for getting him in even if it was a deal that ultimately booted us squarely in the baws.
On the recruitment in general here's a very long listicle of our signings since 21/22 when Daws got the gig = 51 in total (I've listed Obika twice for his loan spell which IMO was fine and his permanent which is very much not).
I've separated out that initial intake who were signed on the classic Robinson style short term deal and were basically here to fill a jersey vs folk we clearly signed with a serious intention of them contributing to the first team but ended up falling pretty far short.
I could be wrong but I'd suggest that a chunk of those Hammell signings were more down to his 'contacts' than our recruitment team.
Maybe it's recency bias but I'd say that Kettlewell's actually got more right than wrong regardless of the whole no wins in 15 or whatever it was.
It's been a dead horse that I'm inclined to keep flogging but I honestly don't see that list being markedly worse than the signings we were making with Foyle and Robinson...especially if you draw up the incomings during Foyle's final window which included Eddie Nolan, Lawleff, Tyler Magloire, Big Weird Harry Smith (who may actually be a shout for our Theo Bair award given he went on to score 15 in 45 for Leyton Orient the season after his brief loan with us) and Sam Foley.
Either way 51 bodies in is a wild number but then you remember all the injuries and loan recalls...and it's still a wild number even allowing for an amount of context:
Graham Alexander (7th Jan 21 - 29th July 2022):
- Connor Shields - bust
- Justin Amaluzor - ringer
- Kaiyne Woolery - fine
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Kevin Van Veen -
- Liam Kelly - fine
- Darragh O'Connor - ringer
- Mich'el Parker - ringer
- Callum Slattery - fine
- Juhani Ojala - bust
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Sean Goss -
- Sondre Johansen - fine
- Ross Tierney - I still believe
- Jordan Roberts - fine
- Victor Nirennold - ringer but the east stand remembers
- Joseph Efford - him reportedly being on daft money makes him a bust
- Robbie Mahon - signed for the unders
- Liam Shaw (loan) - might have been fine if Alexander hadn't decided he didn't like his face
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Blair Spittal -
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Paul McGinn -
- Josh Morris - LOL - bust
- Aston Oxborough - ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ hard to have an opinion, he was brought in as back-up to Kelly and has sat on the bench.
Steven Hammell (29th July 2022 - 11th February 2023):
- Shane Blaney - fine
- Mikael Mandron - fine
- Riku Danzaki - bust
- Jack Aitchison - meh
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Dan Casey - up to his injury - fine
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Callum Butcher - up to his injury - fine
- Stuart McKinstry (loan) - fine until Kettlewell binned him
- Matt Penney (loan) - fine
- Rolando Aarons (loan) - bust
- Louis Moult (loan) - bust
- Ollie Crankshaw (loan) - bust
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James Furlong (loan) -
- Jonathan Obika (loan) - fine
Stuart Kettlewell (11th February - present):
- Harry Paton - fine
- Jonathan Obika - bust
- Conor Wilkinson - fine
- Pape Souaré - bust
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Davor Zdravkovski -
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Thelonius Bair -
- Callan Elliot - ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- Sam Nicholson - fine
- Moses Ebiye - ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Mika Biereth (loan) -
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Brodie Spencer (loan) -
- Oli Shaw (loan) - LOL - bust
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Georgie Gent (loan) -
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Adam Montgomery (loan) - could have been
- Andy Halliday (loan) - fine
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Jack Vale (loan) -
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Adam Devine (loan) -
- [redacted] (loan) - bust
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16 hours ago, djchapsticks said:
He only really had one loan. He loan to us was basically us getting him back for the remainder of his contract rather than seeing it out and leaving at end of that season.
His only real loan move, as pointed out, was a short spell at Sunderland.
Fair point. A poor choice of phrasing on my part.
I think I had it in my head that a part of his relatively few appearances for Celtic was down to him not actually being at the club having been bounced out on loan.
I mean, he signed in 17/18 and as has been pointed out to me he was immediately loaned back to St Mirren til the end of the season. He was loaned out for the 2nd half of his first full season and then sold to Inter Miami the January of his next season (19/20).
Happy to have been corrected though.
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31 minutes ago, Swello said:
Talking of unobtainable ex's - thought Spencer was excellent for Norn Irn last night...
I know Stevie Hammell's cursed amulet is a running bit but in terms of the very specific profile of wing back that we seem to like then between Furlong, Gent, Spencer, Devine, Montgomery (for the very short time we saw him) along with Johnston I guess, we've been doing all right.
Again, not to labour the point but it feels like a lot of the grief our recruitment has got is more tied to some folks perception of the HoR and results rather than whether the players are actually any good or not.
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59 minutes ago, DukDukGoose said:
Jumping in late, but when Turnbull was at Motherwell and Ferguson at Aberdeen, who did you think would go on to be the better player at this stage?
Turnbull to Celtic was the wrong decision, IMO. Said as much at the time.
It's been discussed to death on our thread and I've no real interest in spamming a St Mirren thread about a former Motherwell player who's never kicked a baw for them. I mean they have enough of our former players, managers and coaches on their books as it is but of the options Turnbull had on the table Celtic made the most sense given that the other option was Norwich u23s.
As far as Ferguson goes, he seems to have kicked on in Serie A so fair fucks to him but it's worth mentioning that he made that move when he was 23. Turnbull was 21 when he moved to Celtic (19 when the original deal was agreed) his time at Celtic was the equivalent to Ferguson's time at Pittodrie and at the respective points in their career when Ferguson moved to Bologna and Turnbull was at Celtic I'd still have had Turnbull as the better player - I don't even think that's particularly controversial: Turnbull at Celtic was, IMO, a better player than Ferguson at Aberdeen.
The fairly benign point I was making the other day wasn't even whether they are/aren't good players it was simply that, IMO, in terms of their Celtic careers Lewis Morgan and Turnbull aren't especially comparable and that if you're using examples of young Scottish players who have made the move that haven't really worked out then, for me, Turnbull doesn't really fall into that bracket.
Morgan, respectfully, made a relatively small number of appearances (14 in the league, 31 in total 11 of which were starts) and was all over the place on loan whereas Turnbull established himself as a first team regular (100 league appearances, 134 in total 82 of which were starts) before his time at the club tapered off - particularly after it became clear there was no chance he was signing the extension he'd been offered.
Anyway, as I say, the David Turnbull vs Lewis Ferguson thing has been done to death on our thread so apologies to the Buddies on here for the incursion.
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14 minutes ago, Molotov said:
Difference was Turnbull was signed for over 10x the fee of Morgan.
I think as Scotland fans we all hoped that he would get a chance to prosper at Celtic.
Let’s be honest you and I could win trophies at Celtic.Agree there have been injuries and change of manager etc.
But despite the glittering array of awards and trophies at Celtic he has only managed 5 international caps.
Thankfully time is on his side and I hope the change of scenery down in Cardiff and the tougher league competition he will get his career back on track.
It’s not a dig at Turnbull but the often suffocating nature of signing as a Scottish player with one of the OF.
Equally I'm not knocking Morgan.
I just don't think that his and Turnbull's Celtic careers are particularly comparable.
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2 hours ago, Molotov said:
Look what happened with Turnbull when he moved from Motherwell.
Not being a dick or anything but what happened with Turnbull?
His Celtic career probably didn't pan out as he might have hoped but a serious injury and a change of manager was as much a factor in that as anything.
He made 125 appearances for Celtic compared to Morgan's 31.
Won PFA YPOTY, was Celtic's POTY and YPOTY in his first season along with being included in the PFA team of the year and was a member of the Scotland Euro2020 squad.
Along with:
2 League Titles
2 Scottish Cups
2 League CupsHis time at Parkhead was hardly a bust.
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I’ve seen us win a cup and it was a nice time.
We’ve had another 4 cup finals since all against either Celtic or Rangers. Which is fairly shite luck.
It’s not out of the question that we’ll win another but I’ve said it before in our thread: given the choice of winning a cup vs not getting relegated I’ll take extending our run in the top flight every time.
I mean, ideally we win a cup AND don’t get relegated but I’ve seen us win a cup, I’ve never seen us relegated and would prefer to keep it that way.
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11 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:
Not sure why Motherwell fans are upset about that article, there’s nothing untrue or critical in it.
Bair was terrible for us. He came into a struggling side, started badly and never recovered.
I’ve never known a player get so much support for failing so badly. Everyone was desperate for him to do well, but he genuinely looked like he was playing football for the first time.It’s great how he’s turned it around with Motherwell. He’s a young lad in a new country who seems like a decent person, so its good to see how well he’s done.
It’s fair to say the attention and expectation were much lower at Motherwell and he benefitted greatly from that. Scoring in his first game got him off to a great start.
Tbf, I don't think anyone's actually *upset* about it. Most, if not all, understand the situation around Bair/St Johnstone/us. It's been covered enough.
It's more a side-eye that Nicolson's talking about it...again.
As I said earlier, it may be that he's watched that video we put out and has taken the comments about Saints personally but I think @YassinMoutaouakil sums it up in the post above (especially if it's not part of a bigger interview):
44 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:Gordon comes across as pretty well there but I still find the premise of the article a bit bizarre. I assume its part of a bigger interview than just "I know it's an international break Liam, but here- wasn't Theo Bair shite?"
That said, you can't knock Eric's commitment to taking a bullet for Davidson and MacLean. Fair play.
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5 minutes ago, fat_tony said:
I considered mentioning Mandron but other than that wee purple patch earlier in the season I don't think he's really done much. Certainly not a redemption arc on the trajectory of Theo Bair's.
All things being equal, would we be better off with Mandron over Obika? Yes. Am I bothered we didn't keep him? No.
Aye to me the version of Mandron that St Mirren have isn't that far off the one we saw IMO.
I mean, yes there was a fair amount of point and laugh at them signing him but broadly he was kind of fine for us.
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45 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:
That guy is a moron
It's weird right?
It's like of McGarry spending his time writing follow up pieces on whoever our version of Theo Bair is? It just doesn't really happen.
In fact, who is our Theo Bair equivalent? Someone who we invested a bunch of money in, was a bust but went on to be prolific at their first season at their new club?
We've had plenty of obvious busts but folk like Fletcher, Blyth, Manzinga, Fisher, Sloth or whoever either didn't get anywhere near the number of appearances for us that Bair did for Saints or didn't end up doing anything at their next club (or in the case of some both).
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Eric Nicolson back writing about Theo Bair again is it?
This definitely isn’t a reply to the wee bit of content we put out with the big man eh?
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Bevis captaining Uganda. Good for him.
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3 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:
Spittal away...its Ross Tierney szn
Bring him home.
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27 minutes ago, MurrayWell said:
Apparently all the offers are pure shite anyway, this one being particularly awful.
As @Busta Nut says, let's shelve this and just get on with running the club now. If the unlikely scenario of someone coming in with "club changing" cash happens in the future then ideal.
See, I don't think it has to be 'transformational' investment or anything but the trade off has to be proportional and on our terms.
Actively looking to bring investment into the club is, IMO, A.Good.Thing but rolling out an investment pitch in the way McMahon did, at a point where everything was as up in the air as it was, when we didn't have a permanent CEO in place was again IMO, utterly fucking dumb.
So aye. Get Ewan McVicar's Da' in, stabilise things and let McMahon step down in the summer then see how things go.
Hopefully we can get back to making Good Decisions rather than the fuckery of the past 18 months.
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Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons
in Scottish Premiership General Chatter
Posted
via https://www.soccerstats.com/team.asp?league=scotland&stats=4-motherwell