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capt_oats

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    Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

    in Scottish Premiership General Chatter

    Posted

    7 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

    Kelly played a massive part in keeping us up in his loan spell and securing European football. Even last season I suspect he was clearly in the positive for his net points contribution. This season, bit shit for sure, but if you're considering it an "experiment" there's no way it failed in terms of the return even if wildly optimistic hopes of actually selling him didn't work out.

    It's time for a change for sure not nor should we suddenly rewrite Kelly's spell with us to be worse than it was.

    100% this.

    The idea that because we didn't sell him for profit then his spell is somehow diminished is for the birds tbqh.

    Would it have been nice to sell him for £1m? Sure. That we didn't doesn't change that over his time at the club he's had a net positive contribution.

    8

    Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

    in Scottish Premiership General Chatter

    Posted

    21 minutes ago, CoF said:

    When you say go down that route, what exactly do you mean? The route of signing excellent goalkeepers? As @crazylegsjoe_mfc says, it’s harder than just plucking an out of favour keeper off a league one bench. 

    If you mean out of favour at bigger English clubs, then you could argue that’s the mould of a lot of our recent keepers. Griffiths was at Everton, Oxborough - Norwich, Ripley - Middlesbrough, Chapman - Peterborough, Archer - just released by Fulham. All varying degrees of success.

    We’ve definitely been spoiled by Ruddy, Randolph and Gillespie - here’s hoping you’re right in the next one coming in replicates their successes. 

    Kelly was similarly 3rd/4th choice 'keeper at QPR. You can also add Long to that list as well given he was at Sheffield United and tbf has gone on to have a very decent career for himself.

    Without wanting to step on @MurrayWell's point I'd guess the hope would be that we're looking at recruiting a player who fits a clear profile that has worked in the past. I agree that there are no guarantees but there are probably intangibles around the goalkeeping position that are quite hard to articulate outside of you kind of know when someone's been brought in as first choice.

    Tbh, I know it's a turn of phrase but I'm not sure it's a case of us having been spoiled by Ruddy, Randolph and Gillespie it's more a case of our recruitment when it's come to #1s has just been good.

    The only choice that stands out recently as absolute fuckery was the decision to just hand the gloves to Samson with Dean Brill as back-up along with whatever the f**k McCall was up to (delegating to Gordon Marshall?).

    Since Randolph we've had these runs of first choices:

    • Hollis/Nielsen
    • Twardzik/Long
    • Ripley
    • Samson
    • Carson
    • Carson/Gillespie
    • Carson/Chapman/Archer/Kelly
    • Kelly
    1

    Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

    in Scottish Premiership General Chatter

    Posted · Edited by capt_oats

    46 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

    I don't mind our goalkeeper being right at the top of the payscale. Our last two genuine relegation scraps have saw us with Samson and Twardzik in goals for most of the season and it's almost like you can find a common denominator. 

    I'm not denying that Kelly has had a very poor season, but his criticism is probably heightened by his alleged wage. People probably expect a better return on investment. Were we not supposedly paying him so much, I think people would pass off more of his errors as par for the course.

    I do agree it's the right time for both parties to go their separate ways, but like you say I don't think replacing him will be as easy as some make out. A likely scenario for me is we get a slightly worse 'keeper on a significantly smaller wage. Time will tell if the money saved will be worth it.

    Joe Lewis is the name everyone is sceptical about.

    There's a chance that the money thing plays a part but for me I think part of the problem has been the platforming.

    I totally get it's part of the sales pitch that brought him here and when it comes down to it I'd much rather we sucked up the cost and got him in ahead of United (who were supposed to have been the favourites to get him that summer - if they get Kelly do they sign Birighitti and end up relegated etc) but it's hard not to bump against things when the club is gaslighting the support with "Scotland's future #1" posts while he's chucking them in on a semi-regular basis not to mention the section of the support who actively seemed to buy into it.

    You also have the fact that we clearly paid a fee for him so you have that other section who will class him a failure because we didn't sell him for £1m.

    Fact is that between his loan and permanent he's kept us up when Robinson bailed, had a season where we qualified for Europe and had two wildly inconsistent seasons. Whether he's been value for money is really a matter of personal opinion but he's not been a failure by any means - certainly not in the way your Twardzik or Samson types were.

    3

    Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

    in Scottish Premiership General Chatter

    Posted · Edited by capt_oats

    1 hour ago, camer0n_mcd said:

    All of these rumours make sense when you hear Ketts say he wants to have a more settled pre-season. Last season we seemed to be pissing about a the last minute bringing players in and punting players.

    Frail said pretty much same in terms of wanting a more settled pre-season when he spoke to the press last week. 

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/local-sport/motherwell-aim-squad-shape-early-32705681

    In fairness the punting players was on instruction.

    He'd been told to bring the spend down in line with a level the board were more comfortable with so it was a case of finding takers for as many as we could and generally re-appraising our approach. That was before we even hit the one-in-one-out stage.

    From memory Weir said at the AGM that the difference between where we were and where the board wanted things to be was something like the equivalent losing 6 players. Which explains us binning the Reserves and just choosing to run with u18s and bounce games over the sort of wastage we'd been used to through the Robinson, Alexander and Hammell eras.

    I mean, when you look at the sheer level of movement we've seen between last summer and now it's absolutely nuts and tbh it's credit to Kettlewell in terms of him actually having done a good job (shoutout @thisGRAEME's chat on the Monday/Tuesday pod - another rare treat IMO).

    In terms of numbers since the end of last season (I've only included each player once as there are some overlaps eg: Mahon and Campbell were both loaned out and released, Oli Shaw was famously returned then sent back to us and Ewan Wilson has been loaned out twice):

    Departed/loans expired/released: 18
    Out: 11
    Loan (Out)/recalled: 12

    Like I say, nuts...

    On 04/06/2023 at 23:41, capt_oats said:

    Goalkeepers:

    1. Liam Kelly (27) - 2024
    13. Aston Oxborough (25) - 2024

    Defenders:

    2. Stephen O'Donnell (31) - 2024
    3. Georgie Gent (19) - 2024 - season loan from Blackburn Rovers
    5. Bevis Mugabi (28) - 2024
    15. Dan Casey (25) - 2025
    16. Paul McGinn (32) - 2024
    20. Shane Blaney (24) - 2025
    21. Adam Devine (20) - 2024 - season loan from Rangers
    22. Adam Montgomery (21) - 2023 - season loan from Celtic
    29. Callan Elliot (24) - 2024
    66. Calum Butcher (32) - 2024

    Midfielders:

    6. Barry Maguire (25) - 2024
    7. Blair Spittal (27) - 2024
    8. Callum Slattery (24) - 2024
    11. Andy Halliday (32) - 2024 + 1 year
    12. Harry Paton (25) - 2025
    17. Davor Zdravkovski (25) - 2025
    38. Lennon Miller (16) - 2026
    39. Luca Ross (16) - 2025

    Forwards:

    9. Jon Obika (32) - 2024 + 1 year option
    14. Thelonius Bair (23) - 2025
    18. Oli Shaw (25) - 2024 - season loan from Barnsley
    19. Sam Nicholson (29) - 2024
    24. Moses Ebiye (26) - 2025
    28. Jack Vale (22) - 2024 - season loan from Blackburn Rovers

    In

    • 19/06/23 - Jon Obika (from Morecambe - free transfer)
    • 04/07/23 - Conor Wilkinson (from Walsall - free transfer)
    • 17/07/23 - Pape Souaré (from Morecambe - free transfer)
    • 21/07/23 - Davor Zdravkovski (from AEL Limassol - free transfer)
    • 01/08/23 - Thelonius Bair (from St Johnstone - free transfer)
    • 22/01/24 - Callan Elliot (unattached - previously Wellington Phoenix - free transfer)
    • 23/01/24 - Sam Nicholson (from Colorado Rapids - free transfer)
    • 05/03/24 - Moses Ebiye (from Aalesund - free transfer)

    In (Loan)

    • 03/08/23 - Mika Biereth (from Arsenal - season)
    • 24/08/23 - Brodie Spencer (from Huddersfield Town - season)
    • 31/08/23 - Oli Shaw (from Barnsley - season)
    • 01/09/23 - Georgie Gent (from Blackburn Rovers - season)
    • 15/01/24 - Adam Montgomery (from Celtic - season)
    • 19/01/24 - Andy Haliday (from Hearts - season + 1 year permanent)
    • 31/01/24 - Jack Vale (from Blackburn Rovers - season)
    • 01/02/24 - Adam Devine (from Rangers - season)
    • 01/02/24 - Jili Buyabu (from Sheffield United - season)
    • 08/02/24 - Oli Shaw (from Barnsley - season)

    Out (Loan)

    • 14/07/23 - Robbie Mahon (to Edinburgh City - season)
    • 15/07/23 - Sam Campbell (to Annan Athletic - to January '24)
    • 24/07/23 - Ross Tierney (to Walsall - season)
    • 04/08/23 - Adam MacDonald (to Cowdenbeath - season)
    • 18/08/23 - Barry Maguire (to Kidderminster Harriers - to January 24)
    • 25/08/23 - Robbie Garcia (to Cowdenbeath - to January 24)
    • 26/08/23 - Ricki Lamie (to Dundee - season)
    • 29/09/23 - Mark Ferrie (to Stenhousemuir - to January 24)
    • 29/09/23 - Ewan Wilson (to Stirling Albion - season - loan terminated 06/03/2024)
    • 30/09/23 - Nathan McGinley (to Partick Thistle - to January 24)
    • 22/12/23 - Matty Connelly (to East Kilbride - season)
    • 03/01/24 - Brodie Spencer (to Huddersfield Town - loan recall option exercised)
    • 11/01/24 - Arran Bone (to Gala Fairydean Rovers - season)
    • 18/01/24 - Mika Biereth (to Arsenal - loan recall option exercised - loaned to Sturm Graz)
    • 24/01/24 - Oli Shaw (to Barnsley - loan cancelled)
    • 21/02/24 - Jili Buyabu (to Sheffield United - loan cancelled)
    • 06/03/24 - Ewan Wilson (to Beith Juniors)

    Out

    • 20/06/23 - Kevin Van Veen (to FC Groningen - undisclosed )
    • 22/06/23 - Dean Cornelius (to Harrogate Town - undisclosed)
    • 24/07/23 - Riku Danzaki (to Western United - free)
    • 25/07/23 - Max Johnston (to Sturm Graz - £300k - development compensation)
    • 26/07/23 - Connor Shields (to Chennaiyin FC - free)
    • 09/08/23 - Ali Gould (to Watford u21)
    • 16/09/23 - Joe Efford (to PAS Giannina - free)
    • 01/01/24 - Pape Souaré (contract expired)
    • 03/01/24 - Conor Wilkinson (to Colchester United - undisclosed)
    • 04/01/24 - Sam Campbell (contract expired)
    • 11/01/24 - Robbie Mahon (to Dundalk - free)
    • 23/01/24 - Nathan McGinley (released - mutual consent)

    Players confirmed departing club at end of contract:

    Loans expired:

    Contracted players released:

    2

    Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

    in Scottish Premiership General Chatter

    Posted

    Just now, Desp said:

    Coming onto the Motherwell thread and mentioning Stevie Woods is always a conversation starter...*

    If Celtic are needing more homegrown players for Europe, then having folk like Kelly & Bain as #2 and #3 is a no-brainer really.  I did wonder if Rangers would've done similar and look to get Kelly back in as a back-up goalie (surely McCrorie needs to go somewhere and actually fucking play?).  If Kelly is happy to give up playing every week for the sake of an extra couple of grand a week, it's also a no-brainer from his side.  Whatever happens, it's definitely the right time for Kelly & Motherwell to part ways.

     

    *He wasn't as bad as some make out, IMO.

    This is it, I don't think anyone who's paying attention is looking at this and thinking Celtic are signing Kelly to be their #1 - it's clearly a box ticking exercise. Which is fine.

    That said from Kelly's POV he's already done a stint as 3rd (4th?) choice keeper at QPR, which is how he ended up with us in the first place.

    So as you say, unless he's changed his mind on the whole wanting to play games thing then if he has other options on the table that might give him a more realistic shot at meaningful game time then it's hard to see what the upside is for him other than the uplift in salary and even then is it likely to be significantly more than he was on at QPR?

    I mean, I wouldn't blame him for taking the move but it's definitely the right to for parting ways.

    0

    Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

    in Scottish Premiership General Chatter

    Posted

    Just now, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

    To go back to the chat from a couple of pages ago about McGinn being our best option in the middle of the three, unfortunately that's something we lose with him being in there. He's good at stepping out and carrying the ball when on the right of a three.

    Tbh, I was away to say this in reply to your post about Kettlewell stumbling onto it.

    I genuinely think he was of the view that what we gained by having McGinn moved to the centre wasn't worth the trade off of losing him 'on the ball' on the right especially when the options were Bevis and Casey who, with the best will in the world aren't ball players.

    1

    Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

    in Scottish Premiership General Chatter

    Posted

    1 minute ago, Handsome_Devil said:

    I think it'd need to be well over £2m, if not approaching Turnbull money, to make us sell this summer.

    Put it this way, if there's normal development and he has an injury free 24/25, you'd be confident of at least £1.5m even with 12 months less on his deal, so we shouldn't be considering it now.

    I'd be pitching him the everyone's a winner contract extension every day mind.

    Tbh, the vibe from the AGM (and also the January videos where McMahon was saying the quiet bits loud) was that we view Miller on par with Turnbull in terms of value.

    Essentially we're viewing him as the deal to "de-risk" the club for future seasons.

    0

    Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

    in Scottish Premiership General Chatter

    Posted

    2 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

    It's not a position I expect us to strengthen unless we sell Miller, as I can see Slattery signing at least a short term deal.

    On that point here's the breakdown of contracted players by position vs expiries and as you say, midfield is the one area we have bodies:

    Contracted
    GK: N/A
    DF: Casey, Blaney
    MF: Halliday, Paton, Zdravkovski, Miller, Tierney, Wells
    FW: Bair, Ebiye, Ross

    Total: 11

    Expiring (incl loans expriring)
    GK: Kelly, Oxborough
    DF: O'Donnell, Gent (loan), Mugabi, McGinn, Devine (loan), Montgomery (loan), Elliot, Butcher
    MF: Maguire, Spittal, Slattery
    FW: Obika, Shaw (loan), Nicholson, Vale (loan)

    Total: 17

    0

    Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

    in Scottish Premiership General Chatter

    Posted

    2 hours ago, Swello said:

    I know "experienced keeper" is almost a meme by this point - but would there not be some merit in doing what we've done really successfully for every other position and go and mine English academies for someone who is highly promising but needs real games? I know there is an obvious risk involved in that - but I don't see that it would be any worse than getting someone well past their prime and on their way down.

    If the big book of rules says that you must have an experienced keeper - get someone like that in as backup to help them along and be able to step in if they need taking out the firing line. 

    I think this is almost an easy time to replace our Keeper, it's not Randolph/Ruddy/Gillespie/Sieb we are replacing here after all...it feels like after what we've watched this season,  the only way is up unless we really make an arse of it.

    Agree with all of this.

    As a rule it also feels more sensible to have an experienced back-up as opposed to a younger 'keeper that isn't trusted.

    Prior to Kelly/Fox (who, ended up never actually playing a game for us) the most recent example of that dynamic was when we had Ripley on loan from Boro and the very weird Samson/Twardzik situation in the background where Samson left Killie because he didn't want to be second choice and signed for us where he was...second choice (and didn't actually get on the park until a post-split dead rubber against Hearts at the end of April having signed the previous September).

    Having Gillespie and Carson on the books at the same time was a) unintended and b) closer to having 2 #1s.

    I know we have a GK coach in Alexander but looking at things in a broad sense I kind of go back to Kettlewell talking about us being understaffed when he took the job. Since then Archibald's been in then away to Killie, Foster's been promoted etc it may be the case that we haven't announced any additions but it doesn't really feel like we've added to the staff.

    I mean, Clarkson's still in the dug out on a Saturday which AFAIK Hammell never was.

    You could argue that having an experienced back-up offers value in a non-playing sense that, respectfully, you probably don't get from having Oxborough taking up the second choice spot (on our 2nd highest wage :)).

    I know Halliday's been getting it tight recently however if the idea is to bring in a few more of these types of players to help with the 'culture' around the club then I'd not be against it. Assuming that's the purpose rather than any great expectation that they'd be rolling back the years. It feels relevant given, as has been pointed out at regular points over the season, Kettlewell is still a young manager - he's 39 (until he's 40).

    0

    League positions since 'The Split' was introduced

    in Scottish Premiership General Chatter

    Posted

    1 minute ago, Swello said:

    Apart from the gloriously mid-table nature of that list - it's striking how few times we've finished in the bottom 4 over that long period of time (it feels like it's happened way more than that). If we end up 9th this season, I'm restarting the Kettlewell Out campaign.

    I'm convinced we finished 4th under Billy Davies when John Boyle was spending all the money - assume that was pre-split.

    We did aye.

    1999/00 under Davies - the season before the split was brought in. However, that's the only instance in our entire top flight run since 85/86.

    Screenshot2024-05-07at11_24_15.thumb.png.5790cfb77986cbade5586e82b940e33c.png

    1
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