fueradejuego

Anyone been to FC Copenhagen before? Over in Denmark in a few weeks time and I've already bought tickets for a game. Stadium looks quite tidy. Any advice about where to go before the game etc?

It was confirmed around 30 of the victims were still outside of the ground at 14:45.

"There were youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating the crush....But the more convincing police witnesses, including especially Detective Superintendent McKay and Chief Inspector Creaser as well as a number of responsible civilian witnesses, were in my view right in describing this element as a minority. Those witnesses attributed the crush to the sheer numbers of fans all anxious to gain entry" It's the same paragraph. My earlier post looked into this in more detail. How many is a minority and at what point does a minority start to have an effect upon a crowd of thousands? That will never be know but is the key issue. 10 bams causing a problem. No issue. 1,000 bams causing a problem then there is an issue. Based upon Taylor's findings, I would suggest if the number of people causing problems etc was even in the hundreds, it would have been a significant contributory factor and would have been recorded more strongly within the report with perhaps even an indicative guess at the number. That it was not, suggests to me, the number was insignificant and unlikely to be a cause.

I suppose it depends upon how you interpret Taylor's report. Immediately following the section which you highlight:- "There were youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating the crush." The following comments of :- "But the more convincing police witnesses, including especially Detective Superintendent McKay and Chief Inspector Creaser as well as a number of responsible civilian witnesses, were in my view right in describing this element as a minority. Those witnesses attributed the crush to the sheer numbers of fans all anxious to gain entry" are arguably just as important. Of course minority is not quantified and that is the real issue. Was the minority 10 bams or was it 100 bams within a crowd of thousands? The problem now is we will never know but this section of the report provides ample space for both sides to interpret it as they see fit. It's the section that is used to denigrate Liverpool fans but those who dislike the club etc. As I have said previously, I really don't care about Liverpool. I am completely indifferent to them but the manner in which myths etc have been perpetuated around this issue is what I find particularly appalling.

Crushing outside the ground was a consequence of there being 23 turnstiles for 24,000 fans. Too many fans, not enough turnstiles and a very cramped entrance area. Externally, the situation was the result of a complete failure in management. What I was interested in was what occurred in the tunnel area leading to the pens etc.

The ticketless and drunken element has been addressed by Taylor and have rightfully been eliminated as you highlight. Are there cited examples of the poor behaviour of Liverpool fans at Hillsborough recorded anywhere?

This is the part where I disagree with you and I am genuinely interested in how this part of the tragedy could be investigated further. How do you identify people who would have been pushing / jostling etc? How could you categorically state that certain people were pushing and not simply caught up in the momentum of the crowd? Supposing CCTV identifies maybe 12 people who were being bams at the back of the crowd etc and pushing. What charges could you bring against them? Those at the back would have no way of knowing what was happening at the front. I have been on the terracing at plenty of grounds when you cannot see what is happening in front of you or behind you and you get pulled along by the crowd whilst stewards and police take control of the situation by marshalling the crowd etc. I imagine that any argument supporting the fans pushing would maybe need to revolve around cause and effect?

Too often in the past, events like this were avoidable yet nobody took any action until such a tragedy occurred. It's as if the authorities were either uninterested or so desensitised to matters that the only way for action to occur was when something as socking as this occurred.

Probably because it had been used previously. Crowd safety at football games was not a particularly high priority in those days. No pen had a capacity as there was no safety certificate. Two stands were accessed through Leppings Lane. It was something ridiculously stupid like 25 turnstiles for 25,000 people.

The ground was unable to cope with the number of fans outside. The Lepping Lane entrance is quite confined with limited space anyway which would not have helped. The ground did not even have a valid safety certificate.

Firstly, get my name right I don't like being lumped in with some of the people posting on here so I'll state my views on this. Too many people in this debate become embroiled with whether or not the Liverpool fans are great / scum. That's irrelevant. 96 people went to see a game of football and never went home. The changes which were instigated by Taylor have made football a much better experience for all of us. That those improvements arose as a result of the disaster is a tragedy. I accept that Liverpool fans would have been pushing and jostling both outside and then as they entered the stadium. My view is that the pushing etc stemmed initially from the mismanagement of the crowd at Leppings Lane which had too few turnstiles for such a large crowd. Fans always turn up late for games and the scale of the Stand and number of fans trying to enter was going to create a logistical problem as it had done on previous occasions. When the police panicked and opened up Gate C (I think from memory?) of course fans are going to move quickly into the ground and some would push etc. The problems then arise from the fact that all fans were directed into the central pens and as they entered the pens from the tunnel, the gradient of the terracing was steep meaning you would pick up momentum. Once inside the pens, the barriers on the terracing were inadequate and, like the gradient, failed to meet the criteria of the Green Guide which dealt with safety matters etc at that time. The game starts and more fans try to get in. They are directed towards the central pens and the problem keeps on mounting. If Hillsborough had met the required safety standards and had been policed properly, there would still have likely been problems outside the ground simply due to the confined entrance area. I don't believe the Liverpool fans are to blame for those reasons. I understand why some people can say that the Liverpool fans must take part of the blame etc and to be honest I don't really have a massive problem with saying they played a minor role etc in the tragedy. Some fans will have pushed but did they push as they moved onto the terracing and the gradient of the slope altered? Did they push forward when one of the barriers collapsed meaning there was movement forward? Or were they just people desperate to see their team in the FA Cup semi final? I'm not suggesting that any fan deliberately pushed for malevolent reasons though. To then place a percentage value of the blame on anyone would be completely arbitrary. Some on here will disagree with my views. As mentioned above, I don't have an issue in a discussion where,to all intents and purposes, we're splitting hairs. What I do have an issue with is the constant peddling of crap around the issue such as "it was caused by ticketless fans" or the "fans were all pished" etc Hopefully, today will mark the beginning of the end of the discussion.

I understood it being Sevco away to Stennie. Sevco replace Stranraer in the league and surely that would extend to Ramsdens Cup?

A good article. The outcome (thus far) of this saga has potentially wider implications than just football in the manner in which the fans have positively affected the outcome. At a time when the wee guy is routinely pished upon by corporate interests in society, action and outcomes like these can restore your faith.

I just had a read of the Daily Record online. I have seldom read such sycophantic crap as that written today about the impending vote at Hampden. A few of us on here may be old enough to remember Jim Traynor writing for the Herald. He was actuually decent back then but he is now a shadown or the writer he was back then. The Record's "research" appears to openly contradict much of what is already in the public domain. It's surreal that a paper can be so out of touch with what fans / readers are actively telling them.

Given the tendency for the media to ignore what is happening and print what they like, I found this piece in the Telegraph this morning, rather refreshing:- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9396188/Rangers-in-crisis-SFL-to-cast-judgment-on-Rangers-and-the-Scottish-games-authorities.html