Caley D

Given the fact the club have apparently lost the other surfing flags, not sure that's such a good idea!!

It's not, and never has been, the property of the club. It was gifted directly to me by the tournament sponsor.

A chance for ICT Fans to raise money for good causes, and get their hands on the Pitch Flag from our 2015 Scottish Cup Win. https://raffall.com/334535/enter-raffle-to-win-ictfc-scottish-cup-flag-hosted-by-donald-johnstone

A fairly ludicrous claim unless you believe that 22 teams will go into administration in the same season.

We're saying the same about being out of the SPL

If you're on about the Trust Business Model then I am familiar with it and got a glimpse of it at the Supporters Direct Conference. You'll not get any argument for me that it is the way forward, not just for Livingston, but for all but a select few clubs in the UK. If I'm honest though, given the current situation of the club in terms of the financials, then it probably is a bit of a blessing that you you'll be implementing the plan at a lower level and then building on it.....given how much bad feeling their will be towards Livingston FC and how many local businesses/creditors that have been screwed once/twice/three times now, then you have a lot of "proving yourself" to do before they are going to dip a toe in this particular pool again, and without them then the model will struggle at 1st Div level and the next 3 years would be spent going backwards before you found a level that allowed you to start moving up again. You might be pissed off and angry, but you have to accept that there's just as many non-Livingston fans who are perfectly entitled to be pissed off and angry as well. By your own admission the actions of past chairmen/owners hasn't been entirely honest and whilst Livingston were benefiting from that and lording it over other fans on the way up, other clubs were suffering as a result. If you're not willing/prepared to accept that then probably best you don't walk into the bear pit!!!

That's a bit harsh....they've still got a way to go to match the OF

Larry, this isn't a go at you personally, but it's been said on this thread by several Livingston fans that relegation means that Airdrie and Cowdenbeath would be among those to suffer because they aren't prepared to compete in a higher league....yet you and one or two others keep going on about how they will have voted in self interest for promotion.....which is it? Will they suffer, or will they benefit? If they benefit then it negates the "other teams will suffer" argument and, in effect, only serves to strengthen the argument that the SFL made the right decision. If the answer is that they will suffer, then how can you go about decrying guys who are more likely to have voted in your favour as they wouldn't want their club to suffer. As I keep on stressing, I do not want to see Livingston, or any club, go to the wall....but Livingston have absolutley no argument against whatever sanction they were going to get today. Letting the club stay in a league they have no right to be in (they spent beyond their means to get/stay there) simply because it may be a little inconvenient to relegate them (or indeed expel them altogether) is not the right way to go, and if hte SFL had allowed that they you can be even more certain that we would be seeing more of it in the future. As it is, the SFL have sent the message and the whole of Scottish Football....fans, shareholders, clubs, staff, players, directors and the associations will have to sit up and take notice if they don't want to suffer the same fate. If they can't learn that lesson and they do end up in the same situation then they, like you, have nobody to blame but themselves. By the admission of Livingston 5 and the Livingston fans you would struggle to afford to put a Div 1 quality team out on the park this season and would very likely be the league whipping boys...or be tempted to pay players you still can't afford in order to compete. It therefore makes a lot of sense to send you back to a league where you can put out a competitive team and have you build from there....anything else is letting you have your cake and eat it and you can't seriously have expected that to happen...surely???

No more "at it" than anyone doing the same thing for any other club would be. I might not agree with the methods and opinions, but you can't blame them for trying.

New or used notes? The thing is....if they are confident of fulfilling fixtures then it doesn't matter if it's £10 or £10 Million.

They're just playing the game....they have to lay it on a bit with the whole "any further sanctions over and above the bond would mean the end" to make other clubs ask themselves if it's better to go easy on Livi or risk starting the season a team down. I wouldn't have expected any more or less....the question is whether or not the other clubs are taken in by it.

Livi aren't technically in administration (yet). There's a kind of pre-administration stage that is applied to SME's which is a fairly new thing I believe. I'm working from vague recollection here, but I believe the idea behind it is that small businesses tend to suffer more often from short term cashflow issues and this gives the courts the chance to put someone in there to have a look at what's going on, determine if it is a short term issue, and give the business a chance to recover without the burden of full administration hanging over them. Unless "Livingston 5" have £1.7 Million to invest/pay creditors to make the company solvent before 18th Aug then they will enter full administration. It's a fairly academic point anyway to be honest as the SFL rules don't actually say you have to be in administration to face a penalty....the process just has to have started, and there's no way anyone could deny it hasn't. If the SFL don't get them on the financial issues, they could still impose sanctions on the basis of bringing the league/game into disrepute. Whether the Livi fans like it or not, there's sufficient reason for the SFL to expel them altogether...it's not what I want to see, and it's not what I think the majority of fans of other clubs want to see....but Livi could have little complaint if it happened. It's only the good will and self interest of others that's going to save them.

You're living in cuckoo land if you think McDougall and Rankine are investing on the basis that they are likely to see a penny of their money back from the football side of things. I suspect that once the current mess is cleared up, CVA's agreed etc then they'll move to buy the Stadium, rent it to the club for a few years and then look to get a change of use for the site to allow them to shift you somewhere else and sell the current site to developers......that's the only reason I can see for them throwing any money at Livingston FC. Not a bad deal for Livingston FC given the situation they are in at the moment and there's room for Rankine and McDougall to make a few quid whilst setting Livingston FC up on a sustainable business model so they can continue when these guys disappear a few years down the line. You just have to hope they don't sell out to another headcase.....or even better still, you use the Trust to set up a pot of money which can be used to buy these guys out at some point in the future, or get an agreement with them that you have first option on at least half of the shareholding they have to ensure they don't punt a majority shareholding to the next Keane, Flynn or Massone!!! Anyway, the long and short of it is that it doesn't matter too much to McDougall and Rankine which league you end up in, but it might matter to the business plan and how much you can offer Creditors in a CVA.....relegation certainly wouldn't be a deal breaker in terms of the larger picture.

What the Livi fans fail to realise is that these "saviours" could come in, spend the next 12 months funding/trading the club out of administration, never obtain Massone's shares and then have to walk away leaving him in charge to do the same thing all over again!!! That's how ludicrous the whole thing is.

For me, this is the point where the whole "Save Livi" plan falls apart. You can introduce all the tests, needs for business plans, bonds etc you like and it makes no difference from the moment you remove the rule that prevents the transfer of League Ownership as that is the only thing that exists to dissuade clubs running up huge debts and going into administration in order to clear them....they should be tightening up this rule, not offering clubs a way around it. The proposed actions of todays meeting might save Livingston, but in the process it will totally undermine the rest of Scottish Football, and as I have said already, that's far too big a price to ask of the other clubs and the game in this country. If it happens, or attempts are made to allow it to happen then I imagine the SFL will face legal challenges from several quarters....from teams who have already been refused what they are now proposing, from creditors who have/will lose out as a result and perhaps even from regulatory authorities......almost certainly from Massone himself. I don't fault the fans, or the SUpporters Trust or even the new investors....right now they just want a way out, any way out and if they can do that on the cheap then even better and if my understanding of the Trust Business Plan is correct from seeing/hearing about it at the Supporters Direct Conference is correct then it is the best way forward for Livingston (and many other clubs).....once again though, it's the price that's being paid to get you to that stage that I am extremely worried about and if it's allowed then how many other clubs are going to go the same route to get a clean slate before moving down the lines you are intending? How many small businesses will go to the wall, how many people will lose jobs, how much will local authorities be expected to cough up and how much will be cheated out of the treasury?.,,,not just in West Lothian, but across the WHOLE country!!!

What a joke.....do the Livi fans seriously think that they are going to make Massone any kind of serious offer for his shares when the SFL appear to have given them the green light to form a new company and have the league membership transferred over so they can walk away from giving Creditors a single penny? Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the fans of LIvi....they are desperate to save the club and will take that by whatever means they can, just as any of the rest of us have/would where our clubs were involved. This is the SFL making a total joke of themselves AND Scottish Football. League membership is the ONLY incentive that exists to keep clubs going in a financially sound manner, it's the ONLY protection creditors have from clubs continuously running up huge debts then walking away. Make it easy....or even possible....for the transfer of that membership to another company and you are taking that away. There's not a bank out there who'd be willing to allow a club and overdraft and there's going to be very few suppliers who will allow a club any kind of credit terms if this is allowed to happen and that will impact on EVERY club in the SFL. I don't want to see Livi going to the wall, but I don't think saving them is worth risking the whole of Scottish Football....and that's exactly what will happen if they are allowed to form a new company and pass the membership over.

He seems to think that he can somehow trade his way out of trouble before the 18th August and that people should be willing to just hand him large sums of money to allow him to do it!!! This is the one thing that bothers me about owners of football clubs....and trust me, Massone is not alone in his mindset. They expect all the perks that come from a private business setup and when it all goes t!ts up they expect the customers to throw money at them in order to solve the problems whilst crying that it's not their fault. There's very few clubs out there that have not done it to some degree or other in the past, and until the fans stand up and take their clubs back from those facilitating the ongoing issues then it will continue to happen in the future.

Technically....perhaps. Practically and realistically....it's not as clear cut or straight forward as Massone turning up with a bag of cash or agreeing to sell his shares 10 minutes before tomorrows meeting. McGruther has already started the process of liquidation by making non-playing staff redundant. The only reason playing staff have not suffered the same fate (yet) today is because they are technically still considered an asset that could be sold between now and resigning their league place.

Not dragging it out at all. McGruther would have needed time between now and the meeting with the SFL tomorrow to sit down with interested parties and get assurances/proof together to present which showed they were willing and able to fulfil fixtures for the season. The longer it goes on without Massone selling his shares, the more certain it becomes that Livingston are effectively finished as I can't imagine the SFL would be willing to accept any assurances or guarantees which are backed by Massone.

Serves no purpose, people still land on the site and use resources and they are now redirected to register to view and that uses more resources than just letting them view in the first place.

Hearts still looking for alternative sites? Bet they could get Almondvale for a steal right now

Massone was spotted putting a large case in the boot of the car....when asked if it was stuffed with cash to pay the creditors he just laughed and said no...he'd taken full advantage of the free breakfast buffet by packing a little something for lunch as well.

They would still need someone to guarantee the debt as they have no assets whatsoever on which to secure it. Given the clubs history of poor financial management, is anyone going to accept a prolonged payment plan?...even if they can find someone willing to take the risk on securing it? I hope I'm wrong. As I've said elsewhere I think Community Run Clubs are the way forward for many...I'm just not convinced there's enough left here to pin/build that on.

You're looking at £300,000+ to clear a CVA at 15p in the pound (once you factor in administrator costs etc) for that level of debt. On top of that they are then going to need a good chunk of money in order to operate as I can't see people queuing up to offer any credit terms on anything. Even on a conservative estimate, someone is going to have to shell out £500k in order to dig the club out of this hole and do you really want the kind of eejit who's stupid enough to do that running your club?....the kind of person you're in the process of trying to get rid of!!!