beefybake

I'd say that its really about freedom , and self-determination.

Creamola Foam. Angel Delight. Just as I wrote the above, I could feel my mouth beginning to water......

IIRC from long ago, the PLO when they were in Jordan, began to destabilise the country. Eventually the late King Hussain had to send his own army against them. Presumably that history is part of the rights thing. Also, I remember reading something, a biography/autobiography, about Hussein. He said that he had spent half of of his reign on board planes, flying to and from this capital and that capital..., trying to keep things from kicking off more than they did.

".. The US is trying to be an honest broker....." ( ref. Blinken's trotting round various governments..) Bit surprised to hear that said by one of the main presenters, on CH 4 news a few moments ago. Could hardly believe my ears. In no way is the US an honest broker. The IDF assaults end the moment that the US says.... "Enough, stop now.."

Hard to disagree with that. Arabs are routinely referred to as rodents in the Knesset, parliament of Israel . Can't agree that Israelis are the modern day Nazis, odious though the behaviour of the state of Israel has been for decades.

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I've written to my local MP, requesting that he demand an Immediate, and full ceasefire. Each one of us has a vote, and your MP /MSP wants that vote next time around. Which in the case of Westminster, is not very far away. . I kept it simple for the sake of clarity. I also post on a couple of other forums to express my views.

Possibly the lowest point of the Vanden Plas name was when it was the pinnacle of the Austin Allegro range.

Perhaps a wee read of this..... https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/07/debunking-myth-that-anti-zionism-is-antisemitic As it happens, I'm not anti-Zionist, because I've always felt Israel had and has a right to exist. I have though, never particularly thought deeply about whether being anti-Zionist automatically means one is anti-Semitic. Donathan, imo, isn't a moron. It's fairly obvious what he's up to.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/23/pentagon-military-advisers-air-defense-israel-hamas-war-gaza US military advisers going in. One of them is a guy who was heavily involved in the US assault on the Iraqi city of Fallujah. As I recall, Fallujah was essentially razed to the ground. Also, the US has stated that now is not the time for a ceasefire. If it wasn't before, looks fairly obvious now that the US/Israel intention is to destroy much of Gaza, and make it uninhabitable. Still not a peep from our spineless political leaders.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The 3 D's of avoiding accountability... Deny, Diminish, Divert.

For context, it's not very difficult to find Arabs being referred to as rodents in the Knesset, the parliament of Israel.

You're trying to create an equivalence between the oppressors and the oppressed.

BATMAAAAN. Dinnah, dinnah, dinnah.......

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/20/israeli-arabs-reprisals-online-solidarity-gaza So much for democracy in Israel.

The subject of my comment was a recording. And it was being examined by two experts, Palestinian ( I think ). Not Hamas. They also referred to the horizontal arc of the missile that air exploded shortly before, as being not equating to it landing on the hospital. As I recall, the Ch4 news segment ended with saying that the recording needed independent investigation. Me ? It seems odd that if either Hamas or Islamic Juhad had access to something that could cause all that damage, they would have used it long ago, rather than the rockets into Israel that they have typically used which have caused relatively minor damage to buildings, and very, very occasionally a handful of deaths. Er, yes, I have heard of the fog of war.

I watched Ch4 news last night. They spoke to several people who survived the hospital blast. Those people said they had received warnings/threats from Israel over several days prior that the hospital would be attacked. There was a recording presented by Israel that they said was part of a conversation between two Hamas people. In it, one person said that the explosion was one of theirs. The other person said to blame it on Islamic Jihad. Ch4 then said that they had presented the recording to two Palestininan ( I think ) experts who said it was fake , and obviously so. Dialects, intonations all wrong.

It's not as if they accidently mislaid them. They were forced to leave.

Two people signed the Oslo Accords. Yasser Arafat of the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO). And Yitzak Rabin for Israel. Arafat had conceded to Israel about 60% of what Palestinians considered their territory. Even relative moderates felt he had betrayed them. Yitzak Rabin was assassinated by right wingers in Israel who considered him a traitor for negotiating at all. One of those who had called for Rabin to be killed is now the National Security Minister of Israel. After the assassination of Rabin, the right wingers took a grip of Israel, first Ariel Sharon, then, and now Netanyahu. Israel are occupiers. They are the oppressors. No matter how you try to circumvent that.

As already said, this is now... and there is no equivalence between the oppressed and the oppressors.

Hamas grew out of the Muslim Brotherhood. That organisation was set up to promote Islam. Aside from the political and religious aspects, the provision of social welfare has always been very much part of what they do. I believe the latter was also the case in Palestine, and was part of how Hamas got democratically elected. As mentioned earlier the general population viewed the ruling party PLO as corrupt and self-serving.

Utterly appalling.

Dear, oh dear, oh dear.

Well, Stan Collymore's view seems a well put precis of history, and how things ought to be. Yours is an analytic, legalistic takedown. Do you have anything actually constuctive to contribute ? Israel has spent the last X number of years doing its damndest to kill the idea of a two state solution. I believe in the end, there has to be a shared state.

The history of the various uprisings, and direct Arab/Israeli conflicts here is that when the Israelis have gained the 'upper hand' , or have flattened huge chunks of Gaza......., a phone call comes through to Israel from America, which says ... "That's enough...". The US are the armourers, the financiers, the supplers of sateliite data ..... to Israel.