Jacobite_Dundee

How about it becomes a 'Celtic' forum, and their fans are barred from posting anywhere else? That's beginning to look attractive to me. Apologies to the three sensible Celtic posters. Well, there are probably three, somewhere.

Fixed.

Underlying a lot of these shenanigans is the issue of what a football club actually is. I'm not very easy with the idea that it can just be passed around companies as the financial/governance issues dictate. When Dundee FC was on the edge of the precipice, my expectation was for Dundee FC to disappear (perhaps to be replaced by an AFC Dundee, a Dark Blue FC or Dundee 2011 FC etc). This idea that Dundee FC could have kept its identity, history and honours intact just be expediently passing 'the club' on to the next off-the-shelf holding company would have struck me as being unacceptable. Of course, the question does now come up (with another team involved, of course. Thank goodness it's not my Dundee again). Of course, there are controls on the ability to pass a 'club' from one company to another - the governing bodies' control over transfer of the membership share in the league, for example, and membership of the SFA being transferred. However, it strikes me that we do need a definition of what a 'club' actually is. For me, I'd go for simplicity - the club must be a single body corporate, and that body corporate (company) will hold the league membership share. That share would only be transferable on entering/leaving the league. If the company dies, the club goes with it. Nothing stops that company being part of a bigger set-up, of course, with holding companies, shareholding companies and the like, but it's the single club company which defines the 'club'. Is this me slyly digging at 'Rangers FC' claims to keep its history? No. We can't sort this out for Rangers now by a change of rules - whether 'Rangers' are a new club, a continuation of the old club, or whatever is something that will have to be decided in the absence of rules or a system. But with the likelihood of other clubs facing financial woes, a ready answer to the question "when does a club cease to be that club" would be very useful.

Third Division Forum for this pish.

Would you have room for a Sevco there too?

At last we're doing something right - trying to get credibility by association. Or, ideally, tapping-up Turnbull for the Dundee FC Board.

Well, how about we start with information regarding the various legal issues to be resolved, and whether Sevco Scotland validly hold the 'Rangers FC' SPL share? There is also little information, never mind legal commitments with the ongoing financing of Sevco Scotland. Let's not pretend it's all straightforward. That said, a practical approach is required, and that might mean taking a decision on limited information. It's all going to be another balls-up if Sevco are admitted to the SFL, and then HMRC decides that all the tax debts transfer too (which is a possibility, the likelihood of which I can't say without more information).

In fairness, earlier in the week Clyde FC made the very valid point that they had next to no information about this Sevco Scotland thing there were being asked to vote into the SFL. Given that Dundee FC's 'cop out' specifically stated that the Board were still free to 'debate' if not vote, then Dundee FC's position should have been clear sometime before now. I'm disappointed that we don't have a position sorted out, even if being permitted to vote happened at the last night. Given the circumstances of the situation, I don't think there's time for a postponement. A vote that says "No to Sevco, we don't have enough information" puts the ball back in the SFA/Sevco's court.

Nobody here is a friend of an SFL chairman, that chairman having 'accidentally' left their mobile 'phone connected and transmitting proceedings? Should be on tv. It's been a soap opera thus far anyhow. Any chairmen tweeting directly from the meeting?

Feck, out of greenies and it's only 11.20am. What do want? Greenies! When do we want them? NOW! Anyhow, Boghead Ranter - spot on.

So, assuming that the SFL isn't somehow bullied into accepting 'Rangers' into SFL1, how would we like our chairmen to decide between Cove Rangers, Spartans and 'Rangers'? I've no idea how that should go. My inclination is to say with a large stadium (assuming they still have it) and a potentially large support, it'd be hard to deny whatever Rangers have emerged as. But it'd also be hard to deny Cove and Spartans their chance to build up in the leagues, rather than merely being jumped over by the remnants of a failed football club. PS I have no knowledge as to whether these clubs and/or others will apply to fill a potential vacancy. How would you vote, and why?

You'd get to play Dundee FC. What more do you need?

I'll be much happier when I see a long list of SFL clubs committing to vote against this bribe.

I've managed to find the relevant excerpt from the SFL Regulations: "Para 13.5.1872 Crawling Back In the event of an ill-managed club trying to wangle its way back into the Scottish Football League after having previously broken away in a huff because it wasn't getting enough money, it shall: a) commence running b) launch itself into the air The aforementioned club shall be eligible, however, to take a place at the back of the queue and quietly and properly make an application to join the Scottish Football League, along with nice little clubs like Cove Rangers and Spartans. Such applications will be considered taking into account each club's recent history of shafting the rest of Scottish football and tarnishing its reputation. In order to comply with the Equality Act 2010, any penalties or being telt imposed on one of Glasgow's sectarian twins will be applied to the other as well."

I hope 'Newco' Govan United will have the grace to apply to join the SFL by the 'normal' route, and if successful, join the Third Division. Personally, I'd like a more established club like Cove Rangers or Spartans to have their shot. After all, neither Cove Rangers nor Spartans have a predecessor club that broke away from the SFL for their own advantage, and screwing the rest of Scottish football.

I like the idea of me having the final word on a 467 page long thread, if that's what you're asking?

And, whilst I'm here, I don't believe Livi should be heavily penalised for not playing the East Stirlingshire game. I think awarding it 3-0 to East Stirling, with a compensation order, would be sufficient, given the circumstances.

Livi's imperative is simply to mould itself into a sustainable football club. If you're a Livi fan, you need to be pushing for part-time football and a slimmed down club for now. And you need to make sure you have a good board, with a decent number of independent, strong-minded members to keep the club on a stable course. You've been shown two yellow cards, and you can count your lucky stars you seem to have Graham Poll as referee. Don't flirt with a terminal third yellow.

How on earth hasn't this been resolved yet? If I propose to print some defamatory comments in a daily newspaper tomorrow morning, a court can be put together tonight to decide on whether an interdict is to be granted to stop publication. This was also an instance where a speedy decision was needed, and we seem to have got nowhere. Get a few independent great and the good together, hear the appeal, impliment the consequences. I suppose if Livi win the appeal there's the benefit of a few more floodlit midweek matches. And I like floodlit midweek matches. Though Wednesdays are better for me than Tuesdays, if anyone's listening.

Though this is all prefaced by "133. The Association’s structure for the hearing of appeals is as set out in this Article. The following provisions and procedures provide a means for the resolution of differences or questions arising from the observance and implementation of the Association’s Articles, rules and decisions..." Are the SFL's rules part of the "Association's Articles, rules and decisions"? I'm not sure either way. What is the relationship between the SFA and SFL?

Is that true? I can see that ownership of the club has changed, but that's different from the appointment of an Interim Manager (McGruther). Was he appointed by the court, or did Massone simply invite him along? The fact that there's a statement on the Livi homepage saying McGruther is Interim Manager would suggest to me that he's there by virtue of law rather than simply by invitation of the club, but I'll be told otherwise. If he's there by operation of law, I can't see by what mechanism his appointment has come to an end, even if ownership has changed.

I'm sure Yous will be along any second with the information you seek.

Google Translation ERROR. Cannot translate into English - source language unknown.

I expect Livi will appear at Almondvale a few minutes beforehand and declare they are launching an appeal, and refuse to play the game. Or they won't exist by Saturday. In which case, there's a shopping centre nearby... or come to Raith Rovers v Dundee. It's going to be a big day there, you know?

If there's some good to come out of all this, let it be a change in how Scottish football is set up. We don't want boom and bust, but there's a lot about the current context that invites it. We've got (or, at least, had) a big-rewards top division, a difficult to get out of lower division, and two divisions beyond which generally struggle to keep their heads above water even with part-time football. We need a proper pyramid, we need to sort out promotion and relegation, we need the 'big' teams in the cup in earlier rounds, and we need to make sure we get the costs of running a football club as low as possible in terms of bureaucracy (and perhaps travel, in the lower divisions). I'm sure there are other ideas too. A slim semi-elite with everyone else balancing on the edge of calamity isn't good for anything. One day, hopefully, Pie & Bovril's ratio of football-to-finance threads will tip towards why we're all actually interested in this site.