southview

That's exactly what we did do. Paying too much money to players and Chis + an unrealistic expectation of home league crowds + two bad winters on the trot + the manager and chairman not talking to each other = a disaster.

I agree with pretty much all of this actually. It's not unusual for players to be told they are getting a new deal or being released until the end of the season. In fact, there were probably a good number of the 2008 cup final team out of contract at the end of May. But I don't remember a song and dance being created then. I suppose back then those players knew they'd pick up something somewhere after their heroics but the point still stands. In terms of Queens' situation, I can understand to a degree the 'silence' on the future up until now but this afternoon's results change all that. The club can now plan ahead for First Division football given we can't be promoted/relegated and I would hope to hear some details as the week progresses. The board will know by now if it's full-time football, part-time football or a 'Raith Rovers' full/part-time caper. I think KB is out the door so, with respect, we may as well relieve him of his duties now, put Neil Scally in caretaker charge and begin the recruitment process, maybe have someone in place by around the time of the last game of the season. If next season is going to be as difficult as feared, the more time the new manager gets to plan and recruit, the better.

Could be an interesting lesson. Put a pair of wellies on and get yourself to classes.

They prepare for those conditions. We don't and then get angry (rightly to some extent) when we can't cope. If the experts are to be believed, this type of weather, perhaps not as extreme, will be the norm in years to come so the Government/Councils will just have to spend more cash on grit, grit lorries and snow ploughs. Some of the pavements just now are a disgrace and almost impossible to walk on.

I'm one of the first to start moaning about the 'southern softies' when London gets a dump of snow but these past few days have been f*cking terrible. Took nearly four hours to get from Airdrie to Blackwood near the M74 tonight. Traffic jams all the way and long waits for buses. Absolute nightmare, but there is always someone worse off than yourself though... As I crossed M74 flyover, the queue of traffic heading southbound was incredible. They'd shut the road between junctions 11 and 12 and then again at 16 because the weather was so bad. You see, it's not just moaning that "it's snowing". The roads are just not safe, simple as that. I saw only two gritters in my trip home tonight and as fast as they were salting the roads, the snow was landing on top of it again. The pavements are ice rinks. Maybe I am a bit sensitive about all this given my car slid into a crash barrier* on Sunday night, left M74 but off-slip hadn't been treated and I went skating, but I agree with the view that only necessary journeys should be made. *No injuries by the way, just a bit of damage to the bodywork. Insurance job = higher premium next year though.

Very pleased that all of this is now over. The Livingston saga has cast a shadow over the beginning of the season that has now been finally lifted. I do feel that a points deduction, and Livingston remaining a first division club, would have been the better punishment from the outset, but that apart, absolutely the right decision has been made today. Livi have had a fair hearing today. An independent panel, including a judge, has ruled on this one so they can have no complaints. If they want to go to the CAS, that's up to them, but the rest of us should now move on as it is inconeivable to think that after all of this, they will end up getting a decision. I think the conduct of Rankine has been a disgrace over the past couple of weeks and, sadly, it appears Livi are lurching back into old ways by signing Robbie Winters. He isn't signing for £25 a week plus petrol money is he? The fact the council are writing off taxpayers cash at a stroke and will end up subsidising the club again, through the stadium, over the next few years is utterly ridiculous. But I do hope certain matters are addressed following this episode. Firstly, I don't believe decisions of this magnitude should be taken by people who can be accused of/may have vested interests. An independent panel should be formed for these types of cases. Secondly, I think some hard and fast rules need to be set on clubs falling into insolvency. Effectively, the SFL have relegated two clubs to the third division for falling into insolvency. Is this what is going to happen to everyone else? Some clarification is required.

Does anyone know what time this nonsense kicks-off today?* *Just so that I can get some work done until then

Interesting piece in the SoS today. If the paperwork the reporter has is accurate, SFL may be asked a couple of awkward questions tomorrow. Having said that, Neil Rankine has no business claiming the moral high ground. He is a charlatan of the highest order and I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. For him to criticise McMaster is blatant hypocrisy given his involvement with East Fife (oh, sorry, it is his young niece who has the shares there). He also should be hauled over the coals for his dealings with Donny McIntyre. As for tomorrow, I reckon all of the stories emanating from Rankine/Livi 5 direction over the past couple of weeks has been part of a strategy to undermine and discredit the SFL and their decision and really plant a seed of doubt into the minds of SFA appeal hearing committee. I really hope it is all over by this time tomorrow and if Livi are reinstated to the First Division then it will be very interesting to see 1) why? and 2) what the ramifications will be for some of the key officials involved in this hopeless affair. Longmuir continues to spout that "SFL have handled this issue impeccably" but he is talking tosh. The handling of this matter has been questionable at best and I really hope an independent board, with no conflicts of interest, is set up to decide on issues such as this in our game.

I think Livi should let this go now. I think they will lose any remaining shred of sympathy if they pursue this through the SFA, especially if more games end up being postponed. I don't see what grounds there are for appeal and I simply can't see half a dozen guys overuling not just a management committee, but the will of the SFL membership (yes, it was 16-10 but that means the majority of clubs wanted the punishment to stand. Maybe McDougall feels he has a better chance of winning with the SFA guys deciding their appeal...? I think he would be better off concentrating on trying to get his club out of the third division. I think the more important issue now is what happens when a club falls into insolvency. Now that Gretna and Livingston have been demoted to the third division in successive seasons, does that mean that will be the fate of clubs in the future? This rule which allows the SFL can do anything they like if a club falls into any insolvency leaves far too much room for grey areas. This matter needs to be addressed now so that everyone knows what will happen. If the SFL think automatic demotion is what should happen, fine. Say so. I believe it would be outrageously harsh and very hard to implement, particularly if a club falls into administration during the season. What happens then? I feel a points deduction is sufficient for insolvent clubs and that's what should have happened to Livi on the day the SFL gave McGruther the go ahead to bypass Massone and give McDougall/Rankine preferred bidder status. I also feel an independent panel with no connections to SPL/SFL should be installed so that issues such as this one can be decided without their being vested interests all over the place. I haven't watched press conferences on bbc websites yet but the tag line to the SFL one is "Livi crisis handled impeccably - Longmuir". Is he having a laugh? Whilst Livi's conduct throughout this saga, and particularly over this last week, has been shocking, the SFL's judgement has been poor at times and only helped escalate the situation.

Who will hear this appeal to the SFA? The appeal will be heard by the Appeals Committee, set out in rule 133 (and in particular 133.1) of the SFA Articles of Association. The membership of the SFA Appeals Committee is as follows: Donnie McIntyre (Chairman + Casting vote) (SFL, formerly Dumbarton FC?) Derrick Brown (Vice-Chairman) (Fifeshire FA, formerly East Fife FC?) Steven Brown (Forfarshire FA & St Johnstone FC) Colin Holden (South of Scotland FL & Threave Rovers FC) Finlay Noble (Highland FL & Fraserburgh FC) Eric Riley (Glasgow FA & Celtic FC) Martin Ritchie (Stirlingshire FA & Falkirk FC) However, the SFA Articles of Association appear to rule out Donnie McIntyre from participating. Colin is a good football guy and a really nice man. Is part of a club who would love to be part of any pyramid system leading to SFL entry. Working hard on the ground, trying to make sure it meets criteria one day. Chairman of the most professional club in the South League. I can't see him being controversial and wanting to overturn a ruling body's decision, especially when all of the clubs have had their say.

So if they do appeal to SFA, chances are games involving Airdrie, Cowdenbeath and Livi would be postponed...? As a side issue, does anyone think the precedent has officially been set by the SFL then in regards their handling of clubs in an insolvency procedure in that it will be automatic relegation to the third division? A set rule must be imposed surely. Every club that finds itself in this position can't be subject to different punishments.

I take it that's that then if McGruther's view earlier this week is to be believed. Reckon Livi should just get on with it now. If they take their medicine and concentrate on football they can be in the division where they were going to be for 2010-11 season - Division Two.

In a couple of hours, even less maybe, all this will be over and normal life can resume. Questions occupying my mind at the moment include will Neil Rankine turn up at Hampden today looking like something out of Miami Vice and was Davey Longmuir sent to Somerfield to get a jar of mayonaisse for the ham and cheese rolls at lunchtime? In the meantime I am, trying to decide who should play in goal for my Premiership Fantasy Football team. Quite fancy Paul Robinson as I don't think Blackburn will concede many goals and leaves more money to spend on midfielders/attackers. Arshavin at £11m worthy of inclusion?

I suppose we will all meet up here later on this afternoon then. Think I will warm up for the big meeting by picking my Premiership Fantasy Football team. My prediction: Appeal will fail but Livi will get a few votes in their favour - busted themselves by not playing on Saturday though.

Ye just cannae help yersel can ye?

They (Livi/McGruther) can argue over technicalities all they like but I reckon they should be deducted three points for not turning up. So no, I don't think a suspended punishment or warning would suffice. You can't just decide not to turn up for a game..this isn't the Pub League! I do think that it might have been better for games involving Livi/Airdrie/Beath to be postponed anyway but then I would have preferred the SFL to deal with this issue - in full - two weeks ago! And they always have the chance of winning the points back when the game is eventually played.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...dee/8196432.stm Found on first division forum. Interesting stance, wonder if other clubs against allowing Livi to stay in Division One will be swayed by Dundee's view? Away to bed now...obviously Stephen Dobbie's goals won't be on Sky Sports News tonight

You'll be able to chat with Ivo about Saturday's game against Montrose That's if you move boxes away from fire exits and all that meaning Almondvale gets a safety certificate! I reckon vote will go against you on Thursday but reckon some clubs will support you. I can't see all of the SFL clubs supporting management committee but then I can't see 14 or 15 backing Livi's position either.

Haven't you needed narcotics given the events of the past few weeks. Sorry, scrub that, given how Massone was acting and what he was saying during his final days at Almondvale he obviously was using the entire supply for West Lothian himself!

We have entered the Livingston thread equivalent of the Twilight Zone. Just think, by this time next week we will most likely be having to visit other threads and having to talk about something else!

I'd rather watch Livi than sit through 90 minutes of SPL pish! If a game happens to be on and there isn't the welcoming alternative of Chesterfield v Darlington, then I might have it on in the corner.

All you need to bear in mind is that the SFL haven't a clue what they are doing on this issue and are willing for it all to go away, particularly McMaster and Longmuir whose comments have ranged from one extreme to the other. Livi are the chief villains in all of this but I hope the SFL's role in all of this is looked at when the dust settles as this type of thing just can't happen again.

So will McGruther be spending Thursday's meeting arguing over rule technicalities and insisting that relegation to the third division is too harsh a punishment, both being matters of interpretation? It certainly sounds like those are the two drums he will be beating. Can't help but think his comments and those of McDougall etc... over the past few days coupled with their non-appearance at East Stirling will count against them heavily. Hopefully it will all be sorted by Thursday night (but hopefully not before we get to 400 pages on here ). Whatever the clubs decide, I just hope some hard and fast rules/punishments are agreed for clubs that fall into interim administration/administration or whatever. I think it's something we need.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/s...v_1/8187408.stm Interesting article and audio.

Heard McDougall on the radio today. He seems to think Livi are doing everything by the book and also quoted 76.4 as being one of the reasons why they didn't turn up today...? (might have misheard but perhaps someone could clarify). As he has been involved in football for over 20 years, he must know what is at stake here. He surely can't have given his blessing to all of this without making a few calls. I base this view on the Cowdenbeath fans acknowledging his work with them over the years. As for the vote, it simply says it all that the clubs will decide. There are vested interests all over the place here and I find it staggering that some sort of independent board isn't available for issues such as this. HibbeeJibbee: Would Airdrie and Cowdenbeath be expected to abstain along with Livi as a result of their clear benefit if Livi lose appeal? Working on the assumption that everyone is going to have their vote (except Annan) then I reckon Livi will vote for appeal to be successful (unsurprisingly) From what I have read, it sounds like East Stirling and Dundee may support them. Could the links McDougall and Rankine have with Cowdenbeath, Dunfermline, Dumbarton and East Fife mean they will get another four votes there. That's seven. Raith and Ayr have a choice - Livi in division three or division one with hefty points deduction? Could be nine votes. We can assume Albion Rovers will vote in favour of LMC. Perhaps Stranraer will feel sympathy for Livi's financial plight given their own circumstances - 10. Maybe Clyde in second division feel worried about possible precedent of relegation to third division for entering insolvency - maybe 11. Getting 15 votes may not be as difficult as many are thinking.