Socks

It was me you were talking to on Saturday, and that's not quite what I said. What I said (or at least what I meant to say - maybe didn't come out right as I was getting quite emotional talking about it) is that the board won't tell us the situation and so it's hard to get folk united to doing things to help, for example as the Hearts fans have done recently. We don't have a fans rep on the board at all so not a matter of not knowing who it is, although we know folk involved with the supporters' trust. And the most important bit is that it's grown to be far too big for the fans to be able to do anything about, particularly as we're bound up in this group structure with its massive debt that could cause the club to go down even if DAFC were to be viable. Shame to see .net getting into such a state today, until now it's actually been quite constructive in this. I wasn't quick enough to see the ones that have caused the uproar today, but it does seem that things have been said that make it are making it a bit twitchy for the current directors. Although there have been times int eh past when Brian has just lost it completely, I do have some sympathy for his situation this time. It's obvious from even a quick read that he's been threatened with legal action himself by the current board if he doesn't intervene. A difficult position, but one he could have handled better.

The statement is a joke, and it's probably for the best that Margaret didn't read the whole thing out at the time as those figures would have caused outrage. It's totally outrageous that they should budget for crowds of over 4000 as they appear to have done. When we went up in 2010/11 we averaged 3998, greatly boosted by two big crowds in the last two games. To do that again smacks of living in a fantasy land and believing in something that is never achievable. If the result of this is that we go bust, then frankly it's entirely deserved. I'd be very surprised if tomorrow's announcement contains anything reasonable or sensible. If restructure is impossible while the Masterton family remain in charge, and that restructure is a huge barrier to the previous directors staying, then it must be time for the Masterton family to leave. They have no chance of getting their money back whatever happens, so surely he must realise that the better option is to leave and give the club a chance of survival. this has been coming, and it's frustrating that we can't really do anything about it unless he agrees to give it up, which has always been the fundamental problem. If we manage to survive this with and remain an SFL club, with whatever points deduction or relegation (which would be entirely deserved) then it would be a good result. I was pretty upset driving home tonight as I worried about what was to come, but having read the statement of the current directors, I'm genuinely furious. I rarely feel anger to this extent.

By the time of the next year without a 2 in it, in 988 years' time, there probably is a slightly greater than evens chance that Morton will on one occasion have finished higher than 8th.

Anyone been up Bauchaille Etive Mor by the steep corrie beside Jimmy Saville's cottage recently? Got a Spanish lad working beside me for a few months on an exchange - says he likes climbing, but I'm not entirely sure what sort of level he's at. Was thinking of taking him up to Glen Coe next week for a walking trip with a wee bit of easyish scrambling, but it's a while since I climbed that one - seem to remember it's got a wee bit of decent scrambling near the top before you go over onto the main ridge, is that right or is it more just a steepish walk? I'm not taking him along the Aonach Eagach because I'd be worried having not been on a walk with him before. If I'm not remembering right about the Bauchaille, any otehr suggestions for something that's got some decent (but not too severe) scrambling that isn't too far away? Fairly decent, but not difficult, walk up at Glen Shee today, just did the four tops on teh East side including Cairn of Claise. I haven't been there for quite a while, and it's always nice to do something new in a familiar area after a break of a few years. I was expecting a few showers, but only really got one on the way down and the tops were clear all day - just as well though really, as I wouldn't have enjoyed trying to navigate across the plateau in poor visibility. We were out a couple of weeks back up the Pentlands - most ridiculous wind I've ever known up a hill in my life. I was close to being lifted off my feet twice at the first top, so we didn't do the full ridge and just headed down. Couldn't even hear each other as we agreed to go back!

Aye, I always find that quite odd as well. I've been climbing quite a few Corbetts recently, including that one, and it's always striking just how much quieter it is on these hills. Not that I'm complaining about it, as it's far better when it's not too busy. I find many of the Corbetts to be far more demanding walks, mainly because the ground is usually rougher with less in teh way of good paths which makes a big difference to the amount of energy used. We had a couple of days away camping last week. On Thursday, climbed the Corbett on the North side of Glen Coe at the EAst end of the glen (I forget the name) and although it was a fairly easy climb, the view across to Bauchaille Etive Mor was quite amazing, different to any other angle I've ever seen it from. After mucking about driving on seeminglyl millions of miles of single track road, Friday saw us climb Ben More on Mull. There were plenty folk up it on a nice day, but nobody apart from us was doing it the 'hard' way over the smaller top and up the ridge. We came back down the easy way and I ahve to say I've very glad we didn't climb from that side as it would have been the most boring slog of all time. The way we went was good though, with some nice exposed scrambling. We lost the crest at one point and had to scramble up a really steep, narrow gully, and that was the best part of the walk. A pretty good walk that one, with a nice view over the hills of Mull and also out to some of the smaller islands. It's a bit of a nuicance to get to but worth doing, as long as you go the interesting route.

There doesn't seem to have been too much activity on this recently! Having recently got back from the land of flatness I made it out for a couple of short walks in the snow over the last week. A wee wander over a couple of the tops in the Pentlands last week was much harder than normal due to fresh snow making the path invisible, and ploughing through some pretty deep stuff. Yesterday I was up Ben Cleuch in the Ochils and it was certainly a bit icy. I hadn't expected it really, thinking it would be more a case of hard packed snow rather than solid sheet ice. Without crampons, the only bit that is normally slightly tricky, down to the last crossing of the burn then steeply up the other side for those who know it, looked a bit too dangerous and so we just went up the other way, on the hills to the right of the main route. It's a hill I've climbed many times, but every time in the last few years has had some weather condition that's made it quite tricky. We ended up not making it to the top as it was a bit slow higher up, again due to deep snow, and we didn't have too much daylight left, but that really was a very nice view down over the Forth, with everything completely frozen down on the low ground below. Every year I mean to do more in winter and head for hills a bit different from the local ones, but my problem is that I can never be bothered getting up dead early to drive in darkness for a couple of hours, hoping it'll be OK for first daylight. Does anyone have any suggestions for decent winter walks? I know Dreish and Mayer up Glen Doll are quite popular and indeed I've been up that way once in December, but are there any others in other areas that folk would reccommend at this time of year?

Not everyone is the same, but I find it's much better to go outside rather than doing it on a treadmill. At the moment I have free access to a small 'gym' that has a bike, treadmill adn a stepper thingy. I went in a couple of times to use the treadmill, but I never managed more than a couple of miles or 15 minutes or so, just because I find it completely boring. I generally find gyms to be utterly horrendous places, and my motivation is much, much stronger when properly running outside. I often use Google maps to plan a circular route with the distance that I want to run, sometimes with a shorter route home if I don't feel like running all of it once I get going. As mentioned above, when you do that, your view is always changing, and you don't get bored with looking at the same thing all the time. Another benefit is that if you're running around the streets, you can't just suddenly decide you've had enough, go for a shower and that's that, because you still have to get home. It's a particularly powerful motivation when it starts to rain a bit! Be aware as well that it's a different kind of thing to when playing football. I used to be like that myself - I was fit enough to run and run for a game of fives and be the only one fo the 10 of us still able to run comfortably in the last 10 minutes, but couldn't run more than a couple of miles at a time. A long aerobic run is quite different to the short bursts that you typically need when you play football, and it can take a while to get into the way of it. That's certainly the way it's been for me anyway, but work on it, and it does come.

Thanks - that sounds pretty sensible. Still five weeks until the day so I should manage that pretty comfortably by the look of it. I managed 9 miles in ridiculous humidity on Thursday night, and although I was struggling I still got there - I've never taken a top off before and found it to be so heavy with sweat as it was then! Trying to run up and down any hills might prove a bit of a problem given that the landscape around here is all pretty flat and featureless, but I'll try to find something. I've heard a couple of folk mention briefly that on race day the adrenaline takes you through the last few miles without much of a problem - is that right enough?

I'm a bit of a latecomer to this - wondered if anyone had any advice. Being away for a bit and happening to mention that I was going running at night the odd time to stay fit and fill the time, I was persuaded by some locals here to enter a half marathon not too far away in the middle of November, which has given me a decent incentive to work at it. Having not done any running for months and months (probably about a year actually), I've been doing quite a bit the last few weeks as I've had plenty time at nights, and managed to haul myself up over the last month, from no base at all to being able to do 9 miles non-stop last night. I go out about 3 or 4 nights a week - now that I'm up at about 9 miles, is it better to keep consolidating that with every run and then when feeling fit enough just adding a bit more on (as I've been doing) or keep it to one longish run a week and keep the others to something a bit shorter? I'm determined I'm going to manage it, and given that I was unable to run more than a couple of laps of a track without wheezing not so long ago, I'll be well pleased if (when) I do complete the half marathon. However, the last few runs are the only ones I've ever done that are over 7 miles, and I'm not sure how I should go about it, as one of my knees has always been a wee bit bad and I'm not sure if I want to run too many miles on it before it gets properly used to it. Being competitive as I am, I have a target, that being to finish within two hours, which would be decent going for a first attempt I think. Any reccommended ways of doing it, or is it just a matter of 'get the miles in and see how you get on'?

If you're heading to Glen Shiel as it looks like you will be, a great ridge walk is The Saddle via the forcan ridge - I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread a year or two ago. I did it with my Dad, who has done most of the well known ridges, and he said he enjoyed that one better than most. I'm a decent scrambler, and I enjoyed it too, as it was quite challenging technically without ever getting towards teh point of being dangerous. The Devil's ridge in the Mamores is OK as well - it gives a decent view and it's narrow although isn't difficult at all. There's also some fairly easy ridges in teh Black Mount group (Creise and peaks beside it, just beside Glen Etive, on the left of the A82 as you turn left towards Glen Coe) that are reasonably narrow and worth a walk. Liathach is an experience, but definitely don't go over the pinnacles if it's even slightly windy. Someone once described it as the only place in Scotland where you are reminded of your mortality with every step - and it's quite right! If you decide to take the traverse path slightly below the crest, be aware taht it is quite tricky in parts as well, crossing some dangerous wee gullies. By the way Fudge, I just remembered that we said ages ago we might try to get a walk somewhere, back in June I think it was - needless to say, I completely forgot! I'm in the US until December, but if you (or anyone else) fancy doing something a bit scrambly towards the spring, we can maybe sort something out.

Pretty much everyone who has thought about it for more than 30 seconds seems to agree that by far the most likely reason that this awkward collection of individuals have come together at Livingston is for personal gain by selling the ground. The only obstacle would be in getting the council to sell the ground to them at a price at which they would be able to make a profit on it. Given the assistance the new board have had from the council, or at least individuals there, is it likely or even possible that said councillors will come to personally share in the gains made by selling the ground and relocating? Normally a situation of such blatant theft by a councillor might seem far fetched, but given the assistance given to the new board so far, can corruption to that extent be ruled out on this occasion?

It's not the most difficult, but in my opinion it's one of the nicest hill walks in the area. It's a really nice shapely hill, which you'll apreciate as you get close to it if the weather is good. I don't think you'll have any bother with the firing range - where you branch off the main track and cut up the hillside is well beyond that, and even if you come down on the West side you'll still be well away from it. We did the Corbett to the West of it - whose name I can't remember - a couple of months back, and we didn't go near the range even for that. One thing I remember from that one is that the legs got a bit of a shock, going from a nice easy fairly flat path up Glen Tilt, to a pretty steep start to the climb, just like that. I'm missing my hillwalking just now - this ridiculous flatness where I'm staying just now just isn't good!

Should Livingston pay their debts in full, then they should escape any sanction. However, since teh club statement says that a CVA will be required, a hefty penalty must be put in place, as most people seem to agree. For me, the problem with an arbitrary figure for the number of points deducted, is that it does not necessarily bear any relation to the offence, which is the amount by which the club will be bumping its creditors. My suggestion for a suitable sanction would be as follow. The first time a club goes into administration in a 25 year period, and exits by a CVA, the total points deduction should be 1 point for every 1% of the debt that isn't paid, i.e. a CVA offering 25% would mean 75 points, a CVA for 12% would mean 88 points. The penalty would be structured such that it would be 25 points each season, until the full deduction had been applied, i.e. a 75 point deduction would mean 25 points every year for 3 consecutive seasons. A second CVA in the 25 year period would mean 2 points for every 1% of the debt not paid back. Draconian? Certainly. However, at least a system like that would actually encourage bankrupt clubs to pay back the maximum they could, rather than the minimum they can get away with. The most ethical way of going about it is to cut spending and pay back as much as possible to those owed money, and so such a system surely promotes ethical behaviour amongst the clubs. A further benefit of this system would be that everyone at every club would understand that bumping creditors will automatically mean long term pain as far as success goes, and hopefully it would mean a more responsible attitude would be taken by both boards and fans. Everyone would know that if their club defaulted on payments and survived only by paying a pittance towards settling a CVA, their club would likely spend several years rotting in the third division, which is surely how it should be. I'm entirely serious on this BTW, in case anyone thinks I'm on a windup.

Yes, of course it's up to them and the locals, but if the same thing was happening in Fife with some sports club that I wasn't too fussed about, I'd be pretty angry at public money going that way. Just because it isn't in our own area doesn't mean we shouldn't feel some anger about it. I'd be happy to see the club survive in the sustainable manner you describe, but with the council owning the ground and Livingston, in whatever form they may take, having pretty much no option to play anywhere other than Almondvale, the council must surely be in quite a decent position to dictate terms to whoever it is that might take over the club. Instead, it seems that not only are they prepared to put little effort into pursuing what they're owed, they are willing ot greatly reduce future rent. I just don't think it's on for a public body to behave like that.

That's exactly what I thought upon reading it as well. To say that they will try to put the club into administration "with the aim of securing a long-term future for the club" just seem completely wrong. Surely the normal reason for doing so would be to get as much of the money you're owed as is possible. The language seems very similar to the kind of thing the trust members have been saying of late and it certainly seems likely that discussions have happened, based on that. Assuming the club survives, it really would be absolutely scandalous for the local council to happily let much of the debt to them be written off with little effort, which is the impression I get from reading that statement.

I seem to remember reading something from years ago that suggested the SFA do have some requirement within their rules requiring a 'fit and proper person' to be in charge of a football club. I think it might have come up when Di Stefano was at Dundee, anyone remember if that's right? I doubt there's any specific test though, and unless someone like Bill Archer or anyone else with a past that included shamelessly screwing over another club, was to try to gain control of a club, I'm not sure what grounds the SFA or anyone else would have for refusing to allow the person to take over. It's surprising to see Gordon MacDougall showing interest in this - when he joined the Dunfermline board, he said that he was quite happy with that role, as he didn't want the same level of involvement he'd had at Cowden any more. Of course there's every chance that that was bollocks and it was just a convenient thing for him to say at the time, but that's certainly what he said.

Aye, if we could get a day that suited that might be a decent idea. Maybe an issue with fitness though if some folk are much quicker than others? With the Pars being at Dingwall at the weekend, and a great weather forecast, I decided to head up and camp for the weekend with some walking. Turned out well - a quick wander up one of the Corbetts at Drumochter on the way up on Saturday under beautiful blue skies was much more enjoyable than I expected - not the most exciting hill on its own perhaps, but some nice views, especially to Ben Alder to the West. First time I've really enjoyed a day I've had up the hills in that area. On Sunday I headed up the Ullapool road past Ben Wyvis, and climbed Beinn Dearg and Cona Meall. It was a great day for being out (wish I had my shorts with me) but the approach was fairly boring, climbing diagonally up through thick heather to a low col. It seemed to take ages to get to there, and I couldn't believe the map was saying I'd only climbed 200m! From there on it was fine though, with a really enjoyable easy scramble up a steep ridge with good holds, then still following the ridge as it evened off going up to the summit of Cona Meall. Wee bit of a plod continuing up to Beinn Dearg, but made interesting by the odd patch of snow still sitting there, and it didn't take too long to get up it. Quite an enjoyable route back, going over a small top on the same ridge then down into the valley below. It's a day that isn't up there in teh top 10 hill walks I've ever had, but overall it was still an enjoyable day. Very quiet for a Sunday, and always nice to climb something in an area that I don't get the chance to go to very often. That's the first climb this year for me that's been a long day out - my legs are totally knackered today, but much of that is because of all the heather bashing at the start and end of it. There's better hills up that way, but if you like something that's quite rough where you don't have a path to rely on, it wouldn't be a bad choice.

First one of the year for me yesterday, a wee wander up Beinn Stacath beside Balquiddher. What a belter of a day it turned out to be. I don't usually take poles with me and so with quite hard snow/ice near the top I was having to kick my feet in quite hard with every step and I was peching by the top! The way down was the best bit though - we were going to head along a differnt ridge to the one that we'd come up, but after getting to the head of the corrie, I suggested we try some arsesliding down into the corrie. First time I've ever done that up the hills, and it was absolutely brilliant fun! One bit was maybe a wee bit steep for it, but there was a patch of deep snow at the bottom of it so I didn't think it would be a problem to stop, and so it proved. Arms and bum a bit sore today from all the bobbling about, but that was one of the most fun days I've ever had up the hills. Minigaig pass maybe? Aye, that's another decent area for an overnighter, with most of the distances to the hills being quite long.

You wouldn't even be slightly concerned that the relegation that could result from a 15 point deduction might be the thing that ultimately kills your club off? If the players are getting messed about as has been suggested then I don'tt hink too many folk could blame them for taking such action, but it is surprising that a Livingston fan would actually want them to do so.

There's a campsite in Ullapool, right beside the shore of Loch Broom. I stayed there once and it was an amazing sight watching the sun set, with a rainbow also visible, over the end of the loch. The only downside is that it's called 'Broomfield' which brought back a couple of not so nice football memories. Plenty walks round Ullapool to choose from. If you fancy a short one, Beinn Ghoblach on the peninsula between Loch Broom and Little Loch Broom would be a good choice. I was busy looking at maps for hours last night trying to plan something like that myself for this year. This time though, instead of driving round and usuing campsites, I want to have a go at taking the camping stuff with me and having a few nights camping in among the hills. A couple that look possible are a circuit around the hills of the Knoydart peninsula, probably from Kinloch Hourne, and an over the hills route from Beauly to Kyle of Lochalsh, climbing the hills on the North side of Glen Afric on the way. Anyone got any other decent cross-country routes that they've done, with transport to/from both ends of it? Corrour station to Dalwhinnie over Ben Alder might be another possibility. I'm looking forward to getting out again in the spring. It always gets to this time of year and I want to go out, but I can never really be bothered doing anything high in teh winter because of the time needed to get there, meaning leaving before it's light. Come March though, and I'll be getting back to it.

And Motherwell, presumably. I'm interested though as to why you continue to bracket Dunfermline in with that lot, given taht we did not go into administration like they did. Yes, contracts were renegotiated with players, but in every case the players got a deal that suited them. Crawford was allowed to leave for free at the end of the season, and others such as Scott Thomson got longer contracts which suited them. Much as you might want to believe it to be the case, we did not 'cheat' in the same way as the other clubs you lump us in with did. Hmmm. My recollection of Livingston signing Andrews, Tosh and Burns(?) was that it very much suited Raith to lose them. Staying in Kirkcaldy I know a lot of Rovers fans, and the impression I got from them at that time is that it was important for them to get rid of higher earners, in particular Stevie Tosh, who most of them thought was murder. Maybe Yoss or one of the other Rovers fans will have a different take on it, but that's how I remember it, and if that is indeed the case, it would somewhat undermine the claim that Raith were 'robbed' of 3 of their best players. I'm not saying I particularly liked the way Livingston went up through the leagues. Nor am I saying that the Dunfermline board acted anything other than recklessly at that time. I can also quite understand people not being too upset at either club struggling a bit at the moment. I have no problem with accepting that our recent past directly affects where we are now, and as a club we have to accept that if we struggle on for a while outside the top league then much of that will be due to the actions of our own board 5 years ago. However, some of your takes on things such as those above do sometimes seem a little strange. That makes quite good sense. I suppose it isn't all that long ago that most first division sides and even some in teh Premier were part time. If we end up going back to that then fair enough - as long as we all have clubs left to support, and we leave behind the financial irresponsibilityfrom the recent past, that would be acceptable.

We were up Meall Ghaordaidh near Killin on Sunday, starting in Glen Lochay. Not the most spectacular views but not a bad day nonetheless. Quite nice to do something without much of a path for a change (well there was, but we didn't find it until we were on teh way down!) and the sun came out for us to eat our pieces at the top, so can't complain. Quite a decent one for getting back into it after quite a few weeks of no hillwalking - it's annoying how quickly you can lose your hillwalking fitness. It's a while since we were up there (2002 I think) but I'm pretty sure it took a bit longer than that. I only remember because we started later than normal (about 12) and just as we got down at nearly 6.30/7pm the sun went behind the hills and it got dark pretty quickly after. However, that was the first year that we started going hillwalking properly, so it might well be that we would do it quite a bit more quickly now and indeed if you're out up the hills regularly I'm pretty certain you would be faster than that. Nice ridge that one, well worth doing it all instead of just climbing Stob Dearg and going back down. Not sure how long it would take from Glasgow but from Kirkcaldy to Glencoe usually takes me about 2 hours 50 min. The bit after Crianlarich to Glencoe is quite a good road and doesn't take that long unless you're unlucky and get stuck behind a caravan.

Anyone done any walking on the islands that they'd reccommend? I'm going to have a few days off in the next couple of weeks and quite fancy going to one of them for something a bit different. I'd love to do the Rum Cuillin but unless you want to spend 3 days to get there, do the walk and get back, it isn't possible any day other than a Saturday. I might give the Paps of Jura a go, then maybe something on the mainland the next day. September is my favourite month for walking - about half of the really good days out up the hills I've had havae been at this time of year.

About a year ago some wee hoor stole my front fork and saddle as the bike was chained to the rack. They tried to saw the lock and couldn't get through, so took the fork but bizarrely unclipped the wheel from it and left the wheel. I got a new one with the insurance money but I haven't been out much this year - been too busy with DIY in the bathroom for most of the summer. It's a pity because I used to cycle loads. I keep meaning to get the bike out again, then remember it's buried under a pile of stuff I've had to move to do this bathroom. Some good routes around Fife though - my favourite is along the coast from Kirkcaldy through Kinghorn, Burntisland, Aberdour and Dalgety Bay to Inverkeithing, where almost all of it between Burntisland and Inverkeithing is off-road. Then back on the road and up the hill heading to Crossgates and back through Auchtertool. The road over the Binn hill at Burntisland heading back towards Kirkcaldy is good as well - good for breaking your top speed anyway! 42mph on a bike feels brilliant. If anyone tries it, just don't do what my pal did and lose control where the road bends slightly at the bottom of the hill, and go head first over the handlebars into a wooden post and a pool of nettles. I must give it a go again now that I've got a road bike to see if I can do more than 42...

Was away for a bit of camping and hillwalking from Thursday to Saturday - turned out to be a really good couple of days. On Thursday we stopped off to climb Sgor Gaoith on the Western edge of the Cairngorms starting from Glen Feshie. Stayed clear the whole time but was pretty windy, and then one of the most bizarre things I've experienced in the hills - as we got to about 5 metres below the summit, the wind just suddenly dropped. It wouldn't be strange at all if the wind had just generally dropped, but speaking to folk we passed on the way back down, and of course still feeling the very strong wind again after coming off the top, it was clear that it was only at the very top that the wind had dropped. I've never known anything like that before, although of course we weren't complaining as it allowed us to sit eating our pieces without getting cold! After driving North after that and camping at Gairloch , we climbed Slioch on Friday. Honestly, what a sight it is, viewed from across Loch Maree - a huge tower that suddenly rises up, it's amazing. The walk was fine although it was a bit of a walk in and the same back, and the return probably took slightly longer just because it started to get really hot in the afternoon and it just wasn't sensible to go any faster. We were thinking of trying to climb something small yesterday on the way back down, but we didn't have much time as we wanted to get to Dunfermline for the football at 3.00, and anyway faither is getting on towards 60 and was pretty much knackered after the two days before and so we just had a wee wander round Loch Morlich near Aviemore. A great trip though - always nice to get a bit further afield and climb something in an area that is just too far away to get to and back in a day. I got quite a lot of decent photos - might put a few of them up after I get them on the PC at work tomorrow.