I cant believe how the children of this forum can't handle their emotions. There are a large amount of people here letting their frustration get the better of them - and they all think they know better about everything.

Maybe Burley is a bit of a medicore manager, but lets face it - the culture of blaming the manager has gone WAY too far these days. Boyd has obviously heard all the idiots on the phone ins yesterday saying that "Boyd would've scored, who is Iwelumo?", "Burley must go", etc and thought he'd take him on. Moronic.

Boyd missed a similar sitter (fresh aired it from 2 yards out, faster cross but deffo getable) against Georgia in the last campaign. He was hauled off and if we hadnt equalised im sure he'd have copped it in the fallout. His record against any half decent team is poor. McLeish, Smith, Burley - they all use him sparingly and I reckon they know something many are afraid to admit.

He's a lazy arrogant shite. He's nowhere near good enough to pull a stunt like quitting the national team in the middle of a campaign and expect to ever get back in.

As for Burley, he's only the manager and I dont think its fair to try and argue he's making glaring mistakes. Lets face it - Macedonia are tricky as hell on their own patch and drawing with Norway isnt completely unrealistic. The criticism is WAY out of proportion and is DEFINATELY not helpful. Its embarrassing and we don't deserve to qualify if its the country's dominant attitude.

Right now we're in as good a shape as anyone for 2nd in the group. Its a shame we've blown a shot at winning the group before we even meet Holland but that was always going to be a long shot. We have nothing to lose in Amsterdam next up. We obviously have to and should beat Macedonia and Iceland at home. We won last time we went to Norway and im sure we can do so again. Hey, If we're lucky we might have a crack at the Dutch at Hampden on the last day to mug the top spot, and if we're not then its likely they've already qualified which gives us the edge to seal 2nd.

Lets all just get behind the team eh?

I love the way guys who refuse to see or recognise failings and problems portray themselves as the sane, measured ones surrounded by immature fools - it's laughable.

You'll also need to check some facts because we didn't at any stage equalise against Georgia last time out - We failed to score there and led twice here.

You're right in suggesting that 2nd place isn't completely beyond us, although it now looks bloody unlikely from my seat. The likelihood is however that 2nd spot in our group might well miss out on a play-off berth as the points total we'd amass would still be low.

We've made a rotten start to this campaign as we did in our last World Cup attempt. To pretend otherwise and make facile remarks about how we should "get behind the team" certainly can provoke some of that embarrassment stuff you mention.

Keep dreaming, can i have some of what you have been on!

Yes, it wasnt to equalise - it was to restore the lead. Thats what I meant to say.

Tell me - what purpose does it serve to:

1. Criticise the manager wildly and unjustly.
2. Insanely proclaim we're out of it for 2nd place when we're joint favourites for that spot at the bookies.
3. Ignorantly suggest Iwelumo didnt deserve to be in the team (ahead of Boyd)
4. Generally nitpick with the details instead of realising the main point...

Boyd did miss against Georgia at 1-1. And I can think a few other crucial misses he's made. It was unfortunate and frustrating when Iwelumo missed but its just one of those things. Panning him and the manager isnt going to help.

By the way - there will be other groups where there are a lot of draws - again ignorance of whats going on elsewhere shows here with a lot of people. To say we'd 'probably' be the one 2nd team not to make it is exagerating and unneccesarily negative.

Why shouldnt I 'keep dreaming'? Isnt that the whole point of being a Scotland fan??

Doesn't matter if we get 2nd place anymore now, because we've dropped 5 points, even if we do get 2nd we will almost certainly be the 9th best runner up, out of 9, therefore miss the playoffs. That's why the draw at home to Norway yesterday hasn't made it difficult to finish 2nd, but almost impossible to qualify.

I think that's why the majority of Scotland fans aren't happy.

Yeah but there is a difference between dreaming and being completely deluded. If scotland paly like that against the dutch it will be another massacre.

We are the masters of glorious failure, it's written in the stars that that is what will happen.

There are too many people who are thinking second place equals a play off spot. They don't seem to realise of the 9 groups only the 8 best placed teams qualify for a play off berth, that is why Scotland can only afford to drop 7 points, and 5 have been dropped already with Holland to play twice, and Norway away it is looking highly unlikely they won't drop 9 points against those teams.

All of this 'shut up, and get behind the team!' is a load of pish. The wheels have come off, and the majority knows it.

Im sorry but this is the lowest form of football analysis possibe. Its gibberish.

Different match, a full year from now.


Other groups are full of 'dropped points' too. International football is like that these days. Only the best 2nd place teams will have the 7 dropped points you speak of. In Groups 1 and 4 especially it looks like the teams fighting for 2nd are in just the same position as us. Get out of the goldfish bowl and look around you!

Can you, or anyone who holds the same opinion, explain why?

Absolutely correct. A lot of people also think that the manager has made serious mistakes which have lead to this situation occuring. Looking at performances and results so far it is hard to argue with that.

I have been extremely specific in my criticism of Burley.

Anybody that has a clue about football will be able to tell you how badly wrong both his team selection and his team formation and tactics were yesterday. It simply wasn't good enough.

If you want to "get behind the team" regardless then feel free. He is dragging us back to the Bertie Vogts era of randomness. Burley deserves the criticism coming his way. All is not well in his dressing room either quite clearly. I think he is a dud.

You know what Reynard? I tend to agree with you. Burley is a mediocre manager and he's buckling under the pressure a wee bit. He's not as 'random' as you make out tho - he only replaced the injured players from our last game, a win. When that didnt work he changed it, boldly, to a system that worked pretty well. Unfortunately chances weren't taken.

I dont agree with Kris Commons' selection but in the cold light of day he's no worse than what we've got. Iwelumo is also 'good enough' and on form playing at a higher level than the SPL. All his other selections are fairly standard. Not picking Boyd and McCulloch are hardly that controversial since the same happens week in week out at their clubs. His formation is ultimately the same as we've always had. McFadden up top on his own worked against the French so he'd be on an even bigger hiding if he'd tried something else!

He's not had Ferguson and Hutton at his disposal and some key players (Faddy) have been out of form for club and country this season.

However, yes, I would admit he's obviously not a brilliant man-manager. He might've avoided today's farce by giving Boyd 5 minutes, but he obviously just doesn't rate him enough. He's not the only one.

Burley is nothing special but the criticism from the majority largely wildly exaggerated and unjustified. Bourne out of frustration that im sure he feels doubly as much as the rest of us.

Fair enough. But he is in a position to do something about it. Instead he seems to be pissing off the dressing room and making big blunders when under pressure. And theres no doubt that even this early into his job he is under pressure.

He is being found wanting in my opinion.

What blunders?

Here I am admitting he's nothing special but you're still rolling off into "he's making blunders" as if to make out he's destroying the national team single handidly from within.

I put forward that against Norway he changed the formation and personel relatively early and his changes made us a better team - do you disagree?

Like I said already. His team formation and the personnel he chose to carry it out.

I looked at how he had set us up at the start of the game and told everyone within earshot that it wouldn't work. It was obviously wrong.

If you want to defend his tactics and selection blunders then feel free. But you'll be wrong.

Boyd probably would have scored. But he didn't get the chace Chris did and it went wrong it happens to the best of them. Lets support Chris and move on.

He did line us up poorly against Norway. He should have gone 442, or properly 433. McFadden was the main reason the system failed, hes off form and can barely manage the out and out striker role even when on form. Burley should've known this.

He DID change it early in the 2nd half tho, and he DID make us a lot better. It really isnt his, or only his fault that chances weren't taken.

Im not arguing he's amazing, only that the criticism is way over the top.

Because our most obvious rivals for the spot have just taken a point from their visit here and someone else beat us.
It's not impossible, but we now need to achieve an excellent result in Norway and /or take something from the Dutch.

Nothing I've seen from Scotland since this time last year would suggest that either of those things are likely to happen.

That's why.

Correct. But a pretty fundamental mistake at that level don't you think? If most of us sitting here can see how bad the team selection was then why couldn't a man that is being well paid to do the job? It's a qualifying group FFS, theres no room for blunders like that. The shape of the team and is tactics are the bedrock of what will happen out on the pitch. Sure you cant legislate for that miss but it was about our only clear chance to score whereas a poor Norway side missed half a dozen good chances.

Burley is a dud. You know it.

We drew with Norway at home but Norway drew with Iceland at home. They've also been fairly mince for quite a long time. Macedonia may even be bigger threats but will be very inconsistent. Losing to them didnt stop Croatia or Holland qualifying in recent campaigns!

We can easily take something from the dutch, its exactly the type of game we've taken points from in the past. Its the type of game we can set up for a draw, have every chance of getting it and an outside chance of nicking it. Its a whole different kettle of fish from Norway at home or Macedonia away.

We beat Norway on their ground last time we went there, after losing to them at home.

Im sorry but I can argue just as comfortably that its far from "unlikely" that we'll get 2nd.

You mean in the Georgia game where Kris Boyd gave us the lead?What a great example of how pish he is. Iwelumo missed 2 sitters yesterday, Boyd would have scored both in his sleep.Iwelumo has scored over 10 goals in a season twice and he is aged 30. Boyd has scored over 10 goals every year starting since the 2002/2003 season. He is aged 25. May i add that the SPL is a far higher standard that League 1, or indeed the Danish or German 2nd division. That is why people think Iwelumo shouldn't be playing infront of our most prolific striker.

Kris Boyd's job is to score goals. Not to run about, track back, train hard etc. Score goals. 142 in 199 at club level and 7 in 14 for Scotland. Those figures show there is no one better in Scotland at Scoring. Which is actually the number 1 objective for ANY striker incase you had forgotten. Iwelumo's record is awful at a far lower level than Boyd plays at.

He may well be a lazy arrogant shite. But he is a lazy arrogant shite who scores goals for fun and has never let his country or club down when given the chance.

Smith used Boyd sparingly, as did McCleish. But, they did use him when we needed to win and needed a goal. We needed to win yesterday and needed a goal. Burley didn't and now we are facing a far more difficult task than needed be.

Had we won yesterday we would have had 2nd all but sewn up. 5 points ahead of Norway with a game in hand assuming Holland beat them on Wednesday.

That is what being a manager is all about. Making big decisions and i am afraid Burley totally blew it. Ok, had Iwelumo scored it would have been a different story.He didn't though and at the highest level that it's small margins that make a big difference.

We now need to go to Norway and win, aswell as take points from Holland. That won't happens. Yesterday we should have taken a giant stride towards South Africa and Kris Boyd would have set us on our way. I don't give a f**k if his build up play is shit, he scores against any defence he has come up against.

If anyone is seriously suggesting Iwelumo is far better GOALSCORER than Boyd than they are fucking idiots.

Today is a sad day for Scottish football and for Kris Boyd.

1- Croatia and Holland had already qualified when they lost in Macedonia. We haven't.
2- Can we "easily" take something off the Dutch? I struggle to see how you can come to that conclusion if we cannot beat a Mediocre Norway team at a full Hampden.
3- We beat Norway away yes, but did we qualify from that group?Did we f**k.
4- Yesterdays result/performance has made it very "unlikely" we will get second.

Norway drew at home to Iceland. That's a worse result than our defeat in Macedonia, and I'd be surprised if Norway don't drop points there themselves. We really only need to win at home to Macedonia and Iceland, and get a draw in Norway and we'd probably finish second, regardless of our results against the Dutch. I think that's perfectly achievable, and indeed quite likely.

Whether that would be enough to avoid the worst runners up place is another matter.

I've had a look at the recent groups of 6 from qualifying, and I reckon a total of 14 in second place would see us through to the play-offs.

That means we need 3 wins and a draw from the remaining 5 games. I reckon we can win at home against Macedonia and Iceland at home, and hopefully also beat Norway away. That would then leave us needing a point against Holland.

After taking away the result of the lowest placed team, the runners-up in the groups of 6 in each year had the following totals.

WC 2006

• Switzerland (12)
• Norway (14)
• Poland (18)
• Spain (14)
• Sweden (18)

We would beat 1 out of 5, and finish level with two more.


WC 2002

• Slovenia (14)
• Republic of Ireland (18)
• Czech Republic (16)
• Turkey (15)
• Ukraine (11)

Again we would beat 1 team from 5, and finish level with another.


Euro 2000

• Slovenia (13)
• Ukraine (14)
• Portugal (17)
• Scotland (14)

We would beat one team, and finish level with another two.


WC 1998

• Scotland (17)
• Yugoslavia (17)
• Republic of Ireland (12)
• Ukraine (14)

Again we would beat one team, and finish level with another.


Euro 1996

• France (14)
• Denmark (15)
• Italy (17)
• Holland (14)
• Republic of Ireland (13)
• Bulgaria (16)
• Scotland (17)

We would beat one team, and finish level with another two.



You can see that in each of these campaigns, at least 1 team ended up with a total less than 14 points, and none of those had as many as 8 groups of 6.

Out of that list and the ones that were highlighted only 4 went on to qualify and only 1 of them is a similar size to us in Switzerland.

There is no chance in hell we will win 3 out of 5 and pick up a point against Holland basing it on yesterday and now without our only goalscorer.

You're having a laugh right?

1. Why is the criticism of Burley unjust? The tactics were awful and he made the wrong substitutions. Iwelumo was untried at international level and Fletcher had very little experience. Games of this magnitude are not the time to experiment.

2. Aye, coz the bookies are always right eh?

3. Why did he deserve to be in the team ahead of Boyd? He was untried at international level. Boyd has a good record for Scotland.

Aye, because it's guaranteed that we'll play exactly as well in all our other matches.

Well what have you seen in the first 3 games that suggest we will go on to beat a team we couldn't beat at home, take points off one of the best teams on the planet and never mind beat Macedonia and Iceland at home?

You really are an angry little pratt arent you? Why do you feel the need to come on here and vehemously shoot down people who say they still have faith?

Boyd would've been useful against Iceland and Macedonia at home at best. He's fucking ridiculously retired now anyway, he didnt fancy it, so stop defending the p***k. The things you say about him are delusional, he blatantly does not score against any defence he comes up against and has a terrible record against better than average defences.

If you dont feel like supporting Scotland anymore you're in the wrong forum, bog off.

Its been shown we can get to a playoff with 14 points, id say we'd have a decent chance with 13 and an outside chance with 11 given the fact international football is tighter than its ever been and there are more groups. Thats the obvious 2 home wins and a draw in Norway. Thats our minimum target. Why anyone would feel the need to come on here and say thats a delusion is beyond me.

How many thousands of examples of occasions where teams have had poor results and average results have then had good results and great results are there? How many times have we ourselves lost to a shit team then beaten a great one? Fucking retarded to say we've got no chance.

If we do beat Holland or Norway or even qualify I fucking dare you to celebrate!

f**k You.

I have no idea why that is relevant.

I'd say we had no chance under Burley. He just ain't got it.

We finished 2nd in a 5 team group under Berti, and he was even less competent. At least Burley seems to have a solid and settled defence

We do undoubtedly still have a chance for 2nd and I for one will continue to support the team until it's impossible but for that to happen Burley must learn for some of the mistakes he has made which looks unlikely as he's yet to admit to any.

Tbh I thought he was harshly treated in the wake of the Macedonia game, we did enough to win that one but from the moment I saw the 11 for Norway I was really worried. Tactics are actually not as important as a lot of people think but whether you're playing 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 you must use the formation correctly. We spent 55 minute punting long, high balls up to McFadden and two huge centre backs and funnily enough Faddy didn't get a kick against them. It's not rocket science, that's not going to work. For that system to be effective we had to get the ball down and use the extra man in the centre of midfield to our advantage, if however, we wanted to play route one 4-4-2 was the way to go with 6 foot 4 Iwelumo alongside the more mobile McFadden. We kind of did that with the changes but when it takes that long for the gaffer to react you have a big problem.

I hope Boyd doesn't regret his decision because it looks as though it was made in anger and that state of mind never leads to good decision making. He can undoubtedly do a job for Scotland in the future but he isn't suited to every game. He is comfortably our most natural finisher but for that to happen he needs quality service, something that didn't happen until the closing stages on Saturday. Boyd couldn't have replaced anyone other than the two subs by then which would have been suicide. Yeah it's going to be difficult to qualify but had Norway won it would have been over so we couldn't afford to go gung ho.

I'm glad most people seem to be supporting Iwelumo, it was a horror miss but outside of that I thought he did pretty well. He definitely competed better with the Norwegian defence and caused a few problems. It would also have been very easy to hide after his miss which he never did, I would love to think that all our strikers would react that positively but I fear not.

Next up is the Dutch in March, it's a bit of a 'nothing to lose' scenario and that lack of pressure will hopefully allow us to play a bit of football and recover the confidence which has undoubtedly been lost over the last few games. Even if we lose but compete it can prove to the players that the manager is the man for the job because he is losing the dressing room and that is the biggest danger to our campaign. Our strength has always been out unity and if we lose that it would undo all the good work of recent years, I for one hope this is a blip and nothing more.

The criticism of Burley is justified. He came into the job saying he was going to put his on stamp on the team and get them playing football the way he wanted. Even with injuries, this has failed, obviously. Alex McLeish by comparison, took what Smith had built and ran with it, played the same system with the same players to great effect.

However, to call for the man's sacking after 3 games is bizarre. All the criticism on radio phone ins and newspaper is just going to add to the obvious disunity in the dressing room. We all need to get behind the players and manager and support them, because they have an extremely tough job ahead of them to qualify for 2010.

Yep. They managed to reduce the Norwegians to only half a dozen clear chances.

Yeah, just the 17 shots for them on Saturday

This is a quote from Burley: "Tactically, you look at it and assess it and I think I got it right."

If that is him getting it 'right', I can see why Boyd has pissed off.

Yep. We were fortunate to come away from that with a point actually. They should have scored two or three times before Iwelumos miss.

The criticism of Burley is OTT , let him finish the campaign at least .
If he was sacked now we would have even less chance of 2nd place. I still think we can be runners-up . Hopefully the Dutch will romp it and i reckon it's a close call between us , Norway & Macedonia .
Remember , the Dutch will already have qualified before they come here so i guess that's three bonus points!? Also i would always play Boyd , who cares if he's lazy ,arrogant etc he's the best forward we've got .

That's the best post on this thread frankly. Burley is being crucified for Saturday, yet we witnessed the most appalling miss which had it gone in would have meant that his substitution had worked as intended.

My main criticism of Burley is that he experimented at the wrong time, and played McFadden as an out and out striker. Those are pretty big mistakes. Should he repeat that sort of nonsense during the rest of the campaign, with the same results, then we need to be looking for a replacement.

I sincerely hope that Burley and Smith sit down with Botd together and have a chat with the guy. He is, rightly in my opinion, seriously frustrated, and a bit of TLC would go a long way to fixing that. I'm annoyed he's taking it out on Burley alone though. Smith has a say in this too.

McFadden has played as a lone striker for Scotland before - including the 2-1 victory against Iceland just a month ago. However Iceland's defence was much less physical than Norway's and McFadden was able to compete with them. Surely Burley knew that he wouldn't have it as easy against the Norwegians, and could have picked a more physical option up front.

In fairness to him, he had clearly instructed Gordon to give it to the full-backs as often as possible, rather than punting it up to McFadden. However the Norwegians were wise to this and pressed the full-backs, forcing the high ball. That was another basic tactic which he should have predicted.

The lack of physical presence in attack has been apparent in all of Burley's matches so far. Under Smith and McLeish, we tended to have Miller and/or McFadden up front in most games, but they always had McCulloch in midfield, or Boyd in attack to provide an aerial threat when we had to go long.

I was encouraged by the willingness of Burley to play football, but what we have ended up with is a team with a soft touch who can be bullied out of games. We need to find a middle ground which lets our flair players play, but also has enough physicality to help us win battles like Saturday. To put it bluntly, I don't think Burley is pragmatic enough to do that.

And the win in France.

I don't agree with the policy. He is far too petulant to play the role for one. He doesn't have Miller's pace and enthusiasm to chase hopefless causes and win throw ins and always looks sulky and frustrated.

I'd have played him as a winger. Iwelumo could have done a decent job as the lone striker I think.

In a game you have to win at home you don't play 1 up front, no matter who they are. I read all the 'Hangeland is too big to take on in the air!' Hangeland is tall (6ft 5"), but Iwelumo isn't exactly a midget (6ft 4") and when he came on you could see the physical nature of him ruffling the Norway defence.

Bringing on Steven Fletcher was a big mistake, it must have been the final slap in the face of Boyd, and will probably come back to haunt Burley.

To be honest, after having Darcheville start ahead of you at club level for so long, you have to be used to having your abilities insulted weekly.

I'm no Fletcher fan either though. Don't see what he brings. Not enough goals, not enough pace, not enough physique.

I think the rationale behind bringing Fletcher on was that he could revert to one of the wide roles when we were defending, given that he has played there a number of times for Hibs. Obviously neither Boyd nor Iwelumo would be able to do that.

Aye, Boyd should have played when we were 2 up front but I cannae excuse someone going in a huff and saying he doesnae want tae play for his country. He's letting his ego take over when he should have done what Coisty did during the 'judge' days at the Gers and hung about for his chance tae prove the manager wrong.

We finished 2nd ahead of three teams who'd never been near the finals of a tournament.
Saying that Burley's more cometent than Vogts is not to say very much at all.

THINK ABOUT IT THIS WAY:
alot of the groups have many teams going for second spot and will therefore take points of each other and certain groups will have maybe one team running away with it but maybe 2 or 3 teams going for 2nd place and will all drop points. i still think we can do it.still dissappointed but still optimistic.

None of them have George Burley as their manager though.