There's a story in the Sun today saying the Italian owners plan to sue Pearse Flynn over debts incurred during his time at Almondvale, with their argument being he should settle them and not them.

Can they do this? I thought if you bought a club, you bought the debt as well.

I would presume they could sue him if he had withheld information about the club's debt. Would Pearce do such a thing?

Pearse Flynn pulling a fast one? A bit unlike him.

How do they go about proving that though, unless there is documents that state there is x amount of debt, but there is really y amount? But then would Pearse be daft enough to do that?

I noticed Massone's blaming lies spread on internet forums. Livi Lions will be a hoot today.

Guffaw

Reminds me of that DeSefano chappie that used to post on Dundees forums

Club forums; can't live with them, can't live without them. Everybody is a self confessed expert on their own team. As has been seen before, talking about something that can cause other people a good deal of damage is more than a little stupid.

I am certain that as the current board continue to learn about Scottish football and the club that they have bought, there will be a few issues needing resolved that perhaps they were unaware of. I wouldn't imagine that they landed up here to rack up some minor debts, get sued and then rack off back to Italy.

Nothing to see here.

Good for him. I'd be a little pissed off in his position. Let's face it, if he wanted to make a fast buck, he'd have sold Griffiths, Davidson, MacKay and McPake in August.

No they can't do it. It is the fault of the new owners if they didn't carry out due diligence.

They got the club for next to nothing as Pearse wanted to get rid of it to stop the drain on his finances. Most of the cost to the new owners was the debt owed to the council and suppliers.

I don't have anything against the Italians and they have got the feelgood factor back at Almondvale but I wish they would just bite the bullet and pay off the debts. They can then chase Pearse through the courts as much as they want.

A club like Livi with a smal fanbase needs the support of the local business community to buy hospitality, sponsorship, etc. If Massone had paid off all the small business debts then there would be a good chance he would have got most of the money back in sponsorship etc but by alienating a lot of the small businesses and forcing them into legal action he has effectively stopped that source of income.

They are millionaires after all?

The letter he sent out last week was a joke and now he refers to people like LLD as a 'fake fan'

Welcome to the plastic fan club Dave

Due diligence and all that.

The Italian stallion is probably worried that his £5 a game deal is not going well...what with the plastics getting humped by Queens and the shocking Scottish weather.

Oh Dear!

I'm really happy that the Queens Chairman knows lots abot coos and hasn't a clue how to turn on a computer.

like most people, the new owners will obviously feel aggrieved that there are debts they knew nothing about and are right to chase Flynn (spit)

the word fake is a knee jerk defence to the way in which the story is unfolding on livilions. massones word is fake, Flynns (spit) was terrorists.
its an affectionate name for them and Im sure he means no harm

sounds a bit like a blind builder claiming x amount when the debt is y amount despite there being documents to prove it.

moral of the story? corruption is rife in scottish football and the tally's have been stung

(PSSST: Anyone seen Thistle's waiting-in-the-wings investors from New York and Manchester? Just curious.)

Sssssssshhhhhhhh...

If the original poster on the thread I've included is Massone, then surely the following statement must be of some concern to Livi fans:

"That all players have always received a regular salary paid with my personal money?"

No.

And why not? If Massone is forced to pay the creditors, the lies perpetuated by the 'fake fans' become too much and his stadium proposals are knocked back then you can't blame the game if he decides to walk away.

Who'll pay your players then?

If Massone is paying the players with his own money then surely it's similar to the situation at Gretna? If Massone decides he wants out, are there finances in place to ensure the players are paid?

Are you my echo?

Are you copying everything I say?

The classic schizophrenic argument.

I'm not having a discussion on what ifs and maybes. I can't give you any evidence about the financial afairs of Livingston or any other Scottish football club. You are asking this question based upon what? The broken English of our chairman?

And yet many of you are happy to accept his 'broken English' as gospel?

Head in sand time.

I'll be sure to watch out for your spade when I'm there.

Aye Angelo, it might be a few pounds to you but to small businesses in this financial climate it can be the difference between staying afloat and going to the wall.

Just as well we're not hanging by the balls waiting 'one or two' days since most of us have been waiting months.

I'll take you at your word though and will check my business account on Friday. If the money isn't in then I'll take further legal action. Seem fair?

I 'm sorry I have to respond to you on an internet forum but you and Thomasso won't return my calls.

You'll be too busy avoiding the heads of about, oh, three quarters of your support to worry about that.

The sandpit isn't big enough for eight of us.

I'm a bit worried by all of this. Hope that Massone doesn't turn out to be another Pearse Flynn- ie a bullsh*tter. In my opinion (and I'm no lawyer!), the debts inherited by the club should be the responsibility of the chairman. Whether Pearse Flynn has lied about the unpaid accounts or not, the club should pay up first and then seek re-imbursement, should it be due. I do have faith in Angelo, but it's unfair to label people "fake fans" if they become worried or annoyed by the constant stalling of payments they are due. I hope the situation is resolved quickly.

I'd say the fake fan comment is aimed at the 4 or 5 who've been undermining everything the Italians have done since coming in, ones spreading rumours and criticising things like not selling our best players. We've got a decent team together, brought back a feelgood factor and yet at every point these "fake fans" have tried to bring doom and gloom to it, they wont come out and say anything relevent that can be discussed, just smoke and mirrors comment. Flynn is a rogue, he did nothing but court bad publicity from the first season and i for one am happy to see Massone sue his ass, also these guys chasing debts from Flynns time, i find it funny how they didn't say all this stuff till the Italians took over, smell a soft touch did they, seems like Massones not going to just roll over for them though.

Can you imagine Allan Cowan had done this on the Thistle forum? He would have been destroyed. I don't want any club to go to the wall but since I don't think they are in any real danger I'll have a quiet chuckle at their chairmans PR.

Worse than Thistle, worse than Thistle (not on the park obviously).

Without knowing the ins and outs of this situation, he'd have to have some evidence of a pretty extensive cover up operation by Pearse. The Italians bought the club and went through due diligence. Aren't you a little concerned that he is trying to put attention (and possibly Livi's cash) on an unfounded legal claim?

It sounds as if Massone and his cronies knew exactly what they were getting themselves into. Are you happy to see those who've provided services go without what they're owed?

Incidentally, would MCL care to give us an insight into the letter that Massone distributed?

Exactly what I was thinking at Thistle. I'm glad we Thistle fans are an inquisitive bunch and aren't content to accept the bullshit spouted by our chairman on occasion.

'Save the Jags' obviously taught us a lesson. It doesn't appear as if Livi or Dundee's fans learned anything while they flirted with oblivion.

Massone is a lawyer, if he doesn't think he's got a case i'd be surprised.

Look at Flynns record at Livi, Kachloul, got found out and found guilty, was lucky to escape with just a fine. Dorado, was found by 3 seperate footballing authorities to be in the wrong and should pay the guy what he was owed, yet still refused till the point the Italians took over and did it, do you really think he's a sensible guy who wouldn't leave himself open to another dodgy deal. Due dilligence is one thing, if Flynn didn't pay people and hid it from them, it wouldn't surprise me.

"Dear Sirs,
 
Re: Outstanding Account
 
With reference your outstanding account with ourselves we apologise for the delay in responding to your request for payment.
 
As you will be aware we took over ownership of the club on 2nd June 2008 and as per the agreement any debts, beyond an agreed amount, incurred prior to this date would be the responsibility of the previous owners. I would therefore ask you in this instance to contact Mr Pearse Flynn in relation to your outstanding account.
 
Any goods/services supplied to Livingston Football Club after 2nd June will be paid direct by ourselves and we will notify you shortly regarding a payment date.
 
May we take this opportunity to thank you for your patience during this transition time and if you have any problems relating to the above please let me know in writing to the above address..
 
Yours faithfully,
 
Angelo Massone
Chairman"

This letters content is most likely bullshit. Chances are, and I'd be very surprised if it wasn't the case, that Pearse sold the club for a nominal amount - say £1 - in a zero liability situation. It's what usually happens when clubs change hands in financial trouble as the previous owners just want to stop bleeding money.

It's entirely the new owners responsibility to pay any debts, and it was their responsibility to investigate the debts currently owed. It cannae have been hard, that 'unpaid' folder is bound to be the size of a decent hospitality suite.

Angelo has probably only looked (and maybe asked) at the 'obvious' things so Pearse probably gave him a figure of the obvious things, things required to keep the club going round. What Angelo doesn't realise is that by not paying the smaller bills he's pushing the smaller businesses away from the club and subsequently losing out on tens of thousands of pounds.

Besides, I continued to work for the club after June 2nd and funnily enough, I've not been paid for that time either. I don't regard four months as 'a few days'. Do you? I don't regard several hundred pounds as "one or two pounds". Do you?

Messy indeed.

Referring to people as myself as fake fans...talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Eh, who exactly has been doing this. FFS get a grip will you.

No one is undermining what the Italians have done. Some people are owed money and are just letting other Livi fans know they are not getting paid thats hardly undermining anyone.

On the whole there is a 'feel good factor' around the club from a football perspective, but people get worried when they here these money issues, but its a far cry from anyone trying to bring the club down.

Here we go again. Pay yer fucking bills will you.How many times can you try to get away with this sort of shite.Different Chairman, Different year, same old pish.

Champions league!!!!! More like the ADMIN CUP.

Livingston F.C.= Financial Disgrace.......

im sure the italians knew they were taking on a certain amount of debt but pearse's track record makes me think it is more than likely that he has done something dodgy. who's responsibility it is to pay will depend on whether the take over deal said "we(italians) will pay these debts and you(pearse) will pay those debts" etc.

All of this makes me sick. I'm aware of various debts accrued by the Anthill Mob that they have yet to pay. It's not all down to them being left debt by Pearse Flynn. All this talk of fake fans and folk not being prepared to wait a couple of days for a couple of pounds is just pure pish. And the majority of fans on the Livi fans web site seem to have bought it hook line and sinker. I fear for the future of Livingston Football Club. I really do. 

my guess is your phil off livi lions?

It's no funnier than the number of Livvy fans who believe every word they are told by their owners (past and present) and see anyone who isn't completely convinced as trouble makers. I remember well enough how everyone else was "jealous" of Livvy when they questioned (from a very early stage) how the numbers stacked up when Dominic Keane was at the helm. I remember too that there was one punter who accused PF of being nothing more than a "flim flam merchant" virtually in the first week of his tenure. Again, shot to pieces for daring to question in any way the integrity of anyone running their beloved club. Now here we are again... does anyone see just the tiniest wee potential for a pattern developing here? And no, this time I am not on about the inability to run the club without a Celtic connection somewhere in the food chain.
I've long considered Livingston a particularly grubby outfit (and no, that's not a reflection on the supporters......it's simply that it's a club has always been run in a less than savoury manner....both in a financial sense, and a "spirit of the game" sense). Time will tell if things are different this time around. However, I think there's a 50-50 chance that the owners haven't done their homework wrt existing debt, and revenue streams into the club (on a trend basis).

What makes you think that?

the overall tone of the post

It 's the responsibilty of Livingston Football Club to pay the debts.

It was sold as a going concern so all debts were included. They can't pick and choose which debts to pay and they can't have an agreement between Pearse and Angelo without the creditors agreeing to the conditions.

It's not like admin where creditors sign a CVA. There is even continuity on the board with Vivien and Maurice still directors.

All invoices were made out to Livingston Football Club, not 'whoever happens to own Livingston Football Club at the time of issue'

I think you make some valid points. The ownership and running of the club has been a bit dodgy in the past. I feel that we've never had the stability of other clubs in our league and by and large we don't have the same level of history/foundation. I often question why anyone would invest in a club like Livingston. The vast majority of football clubs are are not profitable businesses. Therefore, for someone to take over a football club and invest a lot of their own money, it would take some sort of personal motive. I just don't see, with Livingston being a new club with a relatively small fanbase, there being many people who would care enough to invest money year after year. I don't exclude the idea that someone with a lot of money would want to just blow it on a football club, but it seems unrealistic that anyone would want to for more than a few years unless they really cared.

I think if Livingston can survive for a few more decades then we will prosper and find the stability that we've lacked before. We have a young fanbase at the moment and the town itself is expanding rapidly with more and more first-time buyers and families coming to live here. If we can attract/keep these young supporters then we will have a stronger fanbase and a better prospect of finding investors who support Livingston and care about the club enough to ensure it's long-term stability.

I'm not suggesting here Angelo Massone does not care about Livingston. But as you've rightly said, time will tell.

You been on the LiviLions boards then, if you have and haven't seen the constant posts at every oppertunity undermining the new owners you must be blind, it's not just about the shit speading about debts either, though that's where it stems from, folk with an agenda shit spreading. Theres 3 sides to every story pal, the clubs side, the shit spreaders side and the truth, nothings black and white, we've at least got to the crux of it all now though after Massone posted, before it was all, i've got a mate that's owed money but can't say anything about it bullshit.

Yes I have been on the boards. No more shit stirring than from when Flynn was in charge, and Keane and Hunter to be honest - you got short memory?

Whats this 'Agenda' you talk about - tell us more what do you mean and what is these people's 'agenda'? Lets get this out on the table.


Its nothing to do with mates. I hope what Massone has posted is correct, but to call some fans fake is below the belt. Whether you like it or not Livi FC cannot affort to chase any supporter away and his phrase is very unfortunate to say the least.

I am just not sure anyone is trying to undermine the Italians.