That sounds familier

I’m all for Supporter Trusts playing a bigger role in the day to day running of their respective Clubs. However, at present I’m less convinced that a Trust owned Club would have any better chance of making ends meet, at least in the First Division.

The problems would remain the same. Too much money going out and not enough coming in. I’m not sure how a Supporters Trust would could hope to change that – at least in the short term and for Livi there doesn’t seem to be a long term.

Starting from scratch, Supporter Trust owned Clubs is definitely the way forward although that clearly doesn’t rule out the possibility of mismanagement.

The income that First Division clubs generate can’t, IMO, support full-time football. The average gate in the first is very roughly 2,700 (please correct if wrong – working from memory) clubs can’t hope to operate with even the most modest, in terms of numbers, squads on those kind of gates. Unless a club enjoys a prolonged cup run, as Queen of the South did last season, then I can’t see how any First Division club can make anything other than a significant six figure loss each and every season.

That can’t continue indefinitely (how long the banks will allow clubs to do so is anyone’s guess) and only the solution I can see is to cut expenditure, the biggest of which is player wages. Looking into my crystal ball I can foresee a First Division in the not too distant future where part-time clubs are in the majority.

It will be accused as a lack of ambition but if clubs want to be here in 20 years time then income will simply need to match expenditure.

Rambling post. Sorry.

Agree.

But the Trust model at least provides a route to supporter involvement with a proper structure. Trust's are in effect small businesses and run correctly provide ample ammunition that it's not just (the holy grail) businessmen that 'can do'.

QOS are a fine exception to the rule.

That's the conundrum at QOS. Can we afford promotion to the SPL and the cost of upgrading our ground? With the infrastructure and economy of Dumfries, is it viable to move to a new stadium ala Falkirk and St Mirren? Should we be spending more of our current budget and recent cash windfall on infrastructure rather than the playing budget?

The problem is that with a liitle bit of success (Cup final and Europe), your average fan wants to progress up the leagues and challenge for more trophies.

Your heart says one thing, while your head says something quite different. Aaaaaaghhh!

Yes, I would imagine it will be difficult to do.

I'm also not sure what the stigma is of part time football. Falkirk have been part time in my lifetime - I didn't notice a huge difference.

Community interest companies are the future.

http://www.cicregulator.gov.uk/

Come on Yoss, you Supporter Direct peeps should be backing me up. Where's Dave Boyle when you need him?

QOS really moved up a level when they went full-time under Chisholm. It would be a backward step to go PT - though i accept that it might one day be necessary. I would also concede that Queens training ft in Glasgow made a huge difference in our ability to attract players, though I was initially against the idea.

Getting rid of jobby McCall was also part of the difference!

It is not enough that I succeed, everyone else must fail!

And Motherwell, presumably. I'm interested though as to why you continue to bracket Dunfermline in with that lot, given taht we did not go into administration like they did. Yes, contracts were renegotiated with players, but in every case the players got a deal that suited them. Crawford was allowed to leave for free at the end of the season, and others such as Scott Thomson got longer contracts which suited them. Much as you might want to believe it to be the case, we did not 'cheat' in the same way as the other clubs you lump us in with did.



Hmmm. My recollection of Livingston signing Andrews, Tosh and Burns(?) was that it very much suited Raith to lose them. Staying in Kirkcaldy I know a lot of Rovers fans, and the impression I got from them at that time is that it was important for them to get rid of higher earners, in particular Stevie Tosh, who most of them thought was murder. Maybe Yoss or one of the other Rovers fans will have a different take on it, but that's how I remember it, and if that is indeed the case, it would somewhat undermine the claim that Raith were 'robbed' of 3 of their best players.

I'm not saying I particularly liked the way Livingston went up through the leagues. Nor am I saying that the Dunfermline board acted anything other than recklessly at that time. I can also quite understand people not being too upset at either club struggling a bit at the moment. I have no problem with accepting that our recent past directly affects where we are now, and as a club we have to accept that if we struggle on for a while outside the top league then much of that will be due to the actions of our own board 5 years ago. However, some of your takes on things such as those above do sometimes seem a little strange.




That makes quite good sense. I suppose it isn't all that long ago that most first division sides and even some in teh Premier were part time. If we end up going back to that then fair enough - as long as we all have clubs left to support, and we leave behind the financial irresponsibilityfrom the recent past, that would be acceptable.

Livingston fans have made a career out of enjoying success with money they don't have. It's been synonmous with their club almost from the start.

If it's time for reality to kick in then I'm afraid that's how it's got to be. I never thought Livi were an SPL club, and have doubts about their viability as a Division One club. They have no divine right to occupy a place at any particular level in Scottish Football, and if mis-management means going out of business it's nothing more than pay-back for the good part of a decade of, essentially, fraud.

Pearse Flynn tried to push SPL2 because he couldn't cope with Livi not being an SPL club. As soon as this takeover was completed I posted asking if somebody was keeping an eye on the finances. It's time for Livingston to get real, accept defeat in this ridiculous attempt at sustaining the club at an un-viable level, and slide down the leagues graciously if they still can.

That's the way I recollect it too. The 3 players were offered to Livi rather than us stealing them. I defy any supporter to say they've been against their club signing the best players they can. Without seeing the books we have to assume that the club is spending money that they have or belongs to the owners.

On a personal note, I'm disappointed in the lack of contact from the Italians. I met face-to-face with Tommaso Angelini and at no time did he say the debt was Pearse Flynn's. He said it wasn't a lot in the grand scheme of things and there wouldn't be a problem. Then I got the letter from Angelo Massone telling me to chase Pearse for it. Then he tells the papers he's never heard of me.

He only said he would look into it when it was pointed out that he had written a letter to me but still I've heard nothing.

Anyone who gets into debt is advised that the first thing they should do is contact the creditor and tell them about it and try and arrange something. I would have been happy to accept a payment plan and I'm sure many of the other small businesses would have too. This would have given them some breathing space but they've just taken the line that they won't pay a penny.

You sound like another alibi.

We've had the last laugh though

w****r

For now. It can never be regarded as the last laugh until the end of the world

I think the amount owed will be somewhat less than what Gretna owed to alibi.

Football clubs have often been known to take fans' good-will to the limits when paying them the money owed. While the fans are reluctant to take action for outstanding debts to be paid due to their support for the club. The moral of the story for fans - don't do business with the football club that you support. (to be clear - alibi is a Morton (and part-time QOS) fan)

Alibi ?

A poster on here, who's structural engineering company was owed a large sum of money by Gretna FC when they went bust.

When St. Mirren finished 3rd in the Premier League in 79/80, our main striker, Doug Somner, finished as the Premier League's top scorer with 25 league goals. He was part-time.

Morton finished 6th that season. Their entire squad was part-time.

The fact is very few clubs outwith the SPL should be full-time. Without outside help, donations or a director digging deep they cannot fund it.

I grew up with a First Division that was pretty much made up of P-T sides and that is the only way clubs like Livingston, Clyde, Airdrie can expect to survive. These clubs must see sense, go part-time and reduce admission costs. Make it affordable for locals to watch and build up a fan base. Raising admission costs every year wont solve the problem, the fan base is disappearing, when its gone we are all fucked.

If it happened tomorrow (or any time soon), then I would think two options would be available:

1) Put the 10th-placed team in the play-offs (whilst maintaining an automatic promotion spot)
2) Relegate the 10th-placed team and promote both play-off finalists (as happened with Gretna).

It's exactly my experience too. They don't answer letters, from me or my solicitor, they don't return calls, they knockback requests for a face to face meeting.

I would have been open to payment by instalment, but by all accounts they've done that with the likes of HMRC only to default.

I feel as though they've railroaded me into taking my own team to court, but other than just write it off there's not much else you can do.

Last laugh?

You are just wallowing in your own mediocrity mate. St Mirren as always will not disappoint me in the end. You can't rely on one team going to the dogs every season just to keep your manky little football club in the SPL.

You're the one taking the piss. Financially astute is exactly what they were then and are now. They weren't lucky that other clubs fell into financial trouble while they didn't, that was them being proven correct in how they went about things. If Falkirk had built a new 10,000 seater stadium in the time they had, it would have put them in millions of pounds of debt, and you're trying to say they weren't financially astute?

Motherwell, Dundee, Livingston, they weren't financially astute.

My comment on you saying Almondvale was the greatest stadium in the world was hyperbole. Look it up.

I'm not taking the piss, Love Street may not be the Camp Nou, but it's atmospheric and a packed Love Street is a great ground to be in. Even when full, you don't get half as good an atmosphere in Almondvale, just some OF supporting tadger with a drum who thinks that pounding it randomly with no rhythm is playing it.

That's an absolute cracker at the end there, please tell us how Morton, the First Division and in fact the whole SFL has benefitted from the creation of the SPL?



Yes, that was at the time that Livingston would buy at least one player a week. Whenever they were beaten, they went out and signed half of the team that beat them. Raith beat them, and 5(five) Rovers players headed to Almondvale that week IIRC.



I'd say that ourselves and Airdrie's current state is fine (convenient viewpoint I know) as although it would be preferable to be completely self-sufficient, at least our owners step in and make sure those are owed money receive it.
It is a precarious situation for a club to be in though. What if something happens to the Chairman who's underwriting the losses? Not much chance of that with Airdrie, but in our case, Douglas Rae isn't a young man. What happens then? What if an owner just loses interest, after all these aren't great times to be a businessman and an owner decides they can't sustain the loss being made on a football club anymore? There has to be a group ready to step in and save the day as it were, and that's where a supporters trust is crucial.



It's a complicated issue. Of course we're grateful to Rae for saving the club from extinction after Hugh Scott. Of course we're better off than when he first came in. It can't be denied that are things seriosuly wrong at our club however, and Rae can't escape criticism just because he saved the day. The youth structure has been neglected under Rae almost totally until Irons and Collins arrived and said it had to be changed. That was how we got our money years ago. David Hopkin, Derek McInnes, Derek Collins, Derek Lilley and more came through Cappielow and onto better things, but now it's a poor standard, and not only a good thing for the playing siode but a great source of income is gone there. I'd elaborate on other problems but I'm away out so f**k this for a game of soldiers.


Final point, I should make it clear I have sympathy for Livi. Obviously they're a manufactured club etc so I feel slightly less sympathy than I do for other clubs who've suffered, but I remember how it felt to see my club close to extinction when I was a child, and even though it never happened it was absolutely horrible. Obviously the circumstances at Morton were different as our owner was actively trying to murder the club, but so many clubs have undergone financial problems and it hurts. Even though I didn't fully understand what was going on being so young, it was awful and the thing that was clear was that the fans had to stick together, organise and keep the club going no matter what. Do the same Livingston fans, and you should pull through.

Think a lot of 1st div clubs will be struggling at the minute, especially with dwindling crowds and the winter weather due in to deplete them even more. In a kinda perverse way I want to see football going back to a part time basis. It maybe bring the prices down and get more local lads and less mercenaries involved with the golden egg being promotion to the premier league and full time contracts, also we can give our whole team jobs in the sweety factory, giving the press untold ompha-lompa photo opportunities.

First division clubs could operate on these gates if there was more money coming into the league outwith gate receipts. The SFL are still doing a horrible job and SPL 2 should have been up and running a while ago. There is no argument against it when theres f**k all money coming into the game and the Irish League have a TV deal with Sky and a cushy sponsorship deal with JJB, likewise the Conference with Blue Square and Setanta and those leagues are made up with teams with equal to/less support than first division teams.

That was indeed the case - for us the Andy Ritchie era, etc. Even then though, that was a bit of a one off and part time in the premier was just not sustainable. Its even less so now!

Yes, but the majority of the First Division should be part-time. Tbh the only clubs who can operate on a full time basis are probably Dunfermline, Queen of the South and St. Johnstone. Everyone else, including Dundee (given there current financial circmstances) and ourselves, would be better served being part-time in the long run.

Like I've previously said, if there was money coming into clubs outwith gate receipts this would be far less of an issue at the very least. The league does nothing to help the clubs financially. Forget some pissy deal with Irn Bru that only earns First Division clubs (possibly even the rest of the SFL too) outwith the league winners a measly 55k a year.

I thought David Longmuir was brought in to help with the marketing of the SFL and like you say seems to have done very little so far.

I can't see the point of Clyde for example turning part-time as they already pay part-time wages. Clubs have just got to be a lot more prudent when setting their budgets.

An opposite view is that if we had turned full time at that time we could have become an established SPL side although I will confess that clubs who were of similar size to us in the 70s/early 80s like Motherwell and Killie all nearly went bust.

The model for me that teams like Morton should aspire to is Inverness Caley.

A valid point and I couldn't agree more re the SFL

I seem to recall you making that confusion once before: I have no connection with Supporters Direct.





All that is correct, Raith needed to sell. However, the state of Raith's finances is irrelevant to the point being made about the state of Livi's, if they were using money they ultimately didn't have. No idea whether you could say that was true in the specific instance, but clearly it's generally true of clubs who go into administration.

Plenty of clubs have been badly run, have invested money they didn't have and then got by on a wing and a prayer. Some have got away with it, been lucky enough to have the success on the pitch or able to sell a player for decent wedge at a critical time or whatever. I daresay Raith took a bit of a gamble by going full-time in the early 90s and of course we wouldn't want to have the subsequent glory days taken off us. Had Leeds stayed in the Champions League a couple of seasons longer they might have established themselves sufficiently at that level to make Ridsdale's gamble pay off, and I doubt Leeds fans would have been quite so critical of that gamble as they are now. So I accept some of the point of there but for the grace of god arguments, but nonetheless I support strong penalties for clubs to whom it happens, it has to be discouraged. In the case of Livi, who have already gone through it not a million years ago, I'd expect that penalty to be severe, if it happens, particularly if there's no particular evidence that the club have learned the lesson and are doing anything about it (and I'm using "club" there in its wider sense, and including the supporters groups and what-have-you).

You could add Thistle to that list ... if the club weren't burdened by a million in loans raised to satisfy the SPL's once lunatic seating criteria and a hefty overdraft that might head south with the ownership of the bank that granted it.

I think both Partick and Dundee have the support and revenue to sustain full-time football in the long-term laying aside any current difficulties.

It'll be interesting to revisit this thread in a year.

We could be too, but similarly to Thistle it would require superior financial management in order for it to be successful.



You would think so, but by that criteria so should we. We have a support roughly the size of Thistles and we lose money year on year. Dundee have the potential to be a successful full time club, as do Partick and indeed Morton, but it would be very difficult to do indeed without losing a lot of money (which I think all three are currently doing).

why does the idiot Dunfermline supporter keep going on about 6 - 7 seasons in the premier league...once they can match St mirrens 13 seasons...then he can say something.

Anyway of more relevance..not too worried about Livvy one way or the other as they did cheat their way up ....but what about Saints offering them a cut price deal for their corner pods (as they need the money so badly) ...how good would that be

Well I will say something now then...someone else can go do the stats but in the last 18years we have been in it 10 times to your 5? I take it prior to that I only need to find another paltry 3 seasons? My point isn't tit for tat it's that St Mirren's fans think that they support some sort of sleeping giant or some historically successful club. They are like Aberdeen fans without the actual trophies or the 'football era'.

I feckin hate St Mirren fandans, basking in their own mediocrity yet again. Go on tell us more about your club's rich history. I believe you did as well as 3rd bottom last season, that's one better than the year before and one better than the last time your were in the SPL, while ago that though eh? 2001 was it? You'll be bragging about having a goal difference of better than -10 next. Please just inject yourselves to death in some mass suicide bid at the horrible little football pit you've just built.

The Hassan Kachloul affair apart, Livi didn't 'cheat'. Oh sorry I'm deranged and mad. Of course they cheated, the football association should really have picked up on that one eh?

F**king muppets.

Knickers. Away and gloat over the Saint Mirren cash pile, buy a Rolls Royce or sign a Brazilian.














(Your team might even beat Killie to Armand One if you're lucky.)

Whilst it's clearly your raison d'être. Well as far as Livingston FC goes anyway.

Enjoy the party

I see, so Livingston didn't offer Marino Keith an eye watering deal using money that wasn't theirs?

What was Livingston's wages/turnover ratio that season?

And I have my shoes ready They aren't new ones though, because I quite like Almondvale for some reason so would be mildly disappointed not to go back there some time.

BBC

The SFL have advanced their clubs £10,000 to ease financial worries.

I'll look forward to my cut

You know after seeing Livi bring about 150 fans to a game barely 30 miles away its hard to say they would be missed in the game.

quality over quantity mate

Do you think that this money has been given to help Livi to keep them going til January so they could sell Griffiths and settle their debts?

That is, of course, in an ideal world and from reading all the posts about the story so far, it doesn't look likely to happen. Fingers crossed that you get your money and still have a team to support

Unfortunately unless you guys are loaded that's wrong as far as the fans securing the future of your team is concerned.

One again we see the West /East bias even in div 1 you only get westie fans going on about fanbase and tradition. You are all Old Firm fans at heart who cannot afford the prices. Queue the onslaught!!!

surely an away game where we took 10,000 to wouldnt benefit LFC financially
all i was trying to say was simply from a personal enjoyment of games perspective i would rather be stood with 25 people prepaired to stand and sing than sat with 500 boring fuckers!

Yes because Clyde and Airdrie have massive supports and Dundee have a shitey wee support.

Talking shit obviously comes natural to you.

Whilst you're just tatty munching Rugby watchers from Edinburgh who think that it is "in vogue" to be seen being all cultural with the Italians at that sporting social club, even though it's not paid it's leccy bill?