No we're just sick of all the bullshit from the "fake fans" who wont come out and say anything, they prefer to make innuendos and have a pop from a safe distance.

They are playing on what's gone down previously too and hoping for others to start shitting themselves, their get out of jail card is to play the old ok you can all bury your head in the sand pish. Most Livi fans are content to enjoy the good season we're having and see what unfolds, not to try and scupper any good things that's happened so far with perpetual we're going bust again lets all slit our wrists stuff, i hope i'm wrong BUT crap that's constantly spewed.

If the Italians try to get Flynn to pay up and fail then they'll have to pay up, who knows if they will then do so or go down the toilet, only they know for sure but everyone prefers not to give them the benefit of the doubt, as i said previously, these debts aren't new, Flynn avoided them without it appearing on here like the Italians have been geting it, why is that???

The agenda is plain for all to see, certain parties have either been burned by the new owners (punted from the website and MDM) or owed money from when Flynn was there, they or their mates have a pop at every story/thread on the forum, eg. not selling MacKay, Sparky and McPake as we'll go bust if we don't etc etc, look how bad we are without McPake and these LIVI FANS want to sell him, all for what's best for the club right enough, the Italians set out their plans before the season kicked off, they've stuck to them, it's not news that they were keeping the best players so when it arose that clubs were in for them and we refused to sell, why the panic about money??

I've no idea if it'll all work out ok or not, but neither has anyone else and that's including the ones who say it wont but they hope they're wrong, i however have had enough of all the gloom that Flynn brought us and am enjoying the season, shoot me for not being a morbid c*nt.

I don't see that as an 'agenda' i see that as ordinary livi fans owed money. If you were owed money then you might take another slant on it so i can understand there fustration, there views on Livi FC. Our chairman has already posted and said hes looking after the big boys (large creditors) and not the small boys - thats now fact on his post in Livi Lions.

I hope it works out cause Saturday afternoons (home & away) is Livi FC for me.

Those waiting on money are entitled to be doom & gloom re Livi that doesn't mean they have an agenda. Maybe if we sold a player we could pay off all the debts and the Italians could fo after Flynn and recover the money maybe thats why people have voiced there concern.

There is no doubt that Flynn left us in a mess, but the Italians own the club now and need to sort it out.

Livi FC should do the decent thing and sort out all the outstanding debtors even if thats just a payment plan.

Well i can't speak for anyone else, my feelings are that i'm enjoying the season, i'm not believing everything anyone says either way, so far the Clubs got the transfer embargo lifted, got a team together and on the same points as QoS, as for all the internal stuff, who knows exactly how any clubs really doing, theres more than Livi with troubles but when chinese whispers start it doesn't help, even if everything is fine and dandy, the no smoke without fire stuff can damage the club, look how the HBOS rumours fecked them, forcing shares to go down ripe for a takeover.
Flynns actions spoke for themself, i wasn't happt about him being at Livi after our first season, however these guys aren't even getting that.

Why is it that if it's only a handful of people who seem to have an agenda against Livingston and it's new owners that it's caused such a stir to the extent that the chairman himself has felt the need to come out and publicly decry them and urge them to follow Celtic or Rangers? You'd have thought that if it was all a lot of shite that they could easily be proved wrong and then ignored? You know what they say about not picking at open sores?

LIVIFOREVER - you are ever so funny! I don't think you realise it, but you are. Don't let the b'stards grind you down.

The agenda is the constant puting down of anything good the Italians are doing, i agree it would be good for folk to get paid monies owed but obv it's not as clean cut as that is it, you say would i be happy if it were me owed money, well would you be happy paying someone elses debts, the big bills that are being paid were agreed between Flynn and Massone, it's the others that seems to be in dispute and neither you nor i can say who's in the wrong.

The Italians i'd say have sorted out quite a big mess already, getting the embargo lifted, appointing a new manager and signing players, paying large debts to crediters, hopefully the smaller guys will get squared up but if it's in dispute who's going to be paying them then i fear they'll wait a while yet, still don't see why Flynn gets away scotfree from all the flack being thrown at Massone.

You are clearly someone with no sense of how a business is run. You also clearly have no knowledge whatsoever of "cashflow". Would you like a short business management lesson on why cashflow is required for a business to survive?

It does not pleasure me or anyone else in the slightest to have to report my own issues with the people who currently own my club. Is a distraction form the main business of football on the park, which incidentally I have not complained about as much as you would perhaps believe, really what is required to this club? No. Would Mr Massone have been significantly cleverer to pay the "small creditors" and then re-take this money many times over in sponsorship? Yes. Has Angelo shot himself in the foot big style with his post on livilions? you bet ya.

Will the Italians be here next season once Pearse rips them up for arsepaper in court?

Place your bets.

pearse is a fuckwit scumbag who has time and again proved himself incompetant in legal matters.

Glad i amuse you.

Prob cause they've read the same stuff as i have and others who've complained about the doom and gloomers, only the admin pulls your posts and hands out warnings of banning folk for speaking their mind about the shitspreaders, glad folk can air their views on here without fear of censorship. I like a laugh on forums but was getting pissed off reading the same old shite from the same old 4 or 5 posters.

Yeah i ran my own business for 25 years, your right, you know more than me.

Eh, I don't see where Massone say's they agreed to pay this debt as part of the deal, but the likelyhood is they are being paid is becuase these are the type of creditors than can easily call for a winding up order. Smaller debtors are unlikely to do that becuse of the amounts.

You seem to miss the point. The onus is on the Italians to go after Flynn only they know what was part of the deal for buying and selling the club. Flynn will get off scot free as long as the Italians allow him to. That should't mean creditors at Livi FC should suffer meantime though.

Money is a very emotional subject for many and i won't decry anyone who has provided a service on the faith they would be paid for that service and are not being paid for whatever reason. Esp in hard times like the credit crunch.

Flynn deserves everything he gets.

Exactly, i doubt very much that Flynn would be ripping anyone up legally for arse paper.

I'd hope that for those 25 years you showed more attention to detail than this.

Are you still championing Pearse in spite of the money he owed you?

See above rocket scientist.

In my circumstance which I understand is not unique, I was paid right up until the new owners took over. Granted, it was three months in arrears, however I was still paid...

There is absolutely no doubt that David Hay has been a major influence in the Italians taking over the club. It remains to be seen whether or not his assessment of what LFC were (or were perceived to be) has any resemblence to reality in 2008. I think perception and reality might well be a lot further apart than is comfortable for a few involved individuals.
I understand your hopes of growth for LFC, however I feel it's more in hope than belief. It wasn't so long ago that there was much preening down Almondvale way over claims of 4,000 season ticket holders. What was conveniently omitted from the blurb was that over half were paying next to nothing for the tickets, and the poor old Mr McGuinnes was being creamed for several million over and above additional debt being accrued by the football business. I doubt that LFC will ever grow organically to a point where it will ever meaningfully impact upon Hibs or Hearts or the OF. At th eend of the day, be you East West or Mid Lothian, then Hearts Hibs and the OF will always be the attraction that matters, and LFC will only draw people away when admission is for next to nothing, and/or the club are spending cash they don't have.

Rocket science is not my forte I'm afraid. From what you have posted on Livilions I was under the impression that you had not been paid since January. If Pearse settled up re your wages then I obviously got that wrong and you are not in the same position as MCL who was owed money from before the Italians came in. Please accept my apologies.

Do we have a new StMiranda?

Long-term existance would satisfy me. Of course Hibs/Hearts/OF will always be bigger than Livingston. But I still feel that we have decent growth potential, especially if we manage to get back into the SPL.

I don't remember there being any big subsidies in season ticket prices when we were doing well. Scottish football crowds in general were bigger back then. I think Dominic Keane just over-spent on players (and that stupid office block).

One thing i didn't do was get involved with a football club.

Click to view attachment

It is still an option though, no matter how small the debt.

Its ok MCL, as we're Fake Fans, we won't mind sending the club we love packing into the abyss of Administration.

Oh, there were MASSIVE subsidies in season tickets back then including "two for the price of one" or even "three for the price of one" where two were juniors. Even then, the price of the season ticket was extremely low. Of course, one way or the other, the debt simply climbed and climbed with one ex hospital porter effectively being the guarantor for a good chunk of it.
The growth potential you speak of applies equally (and probably more so) to St Johnstone, Dundee FC, Greenock Morton, Partick Thistle, Dunfermline, QotS, Raith Rovers and Ross County. All "potentially" much bigger than Livingston. Now the one thing I do know is that those in charge at Livingston have been little short of staggered at the lack of numbers coming through the gate, and were expecting crowds greater than 4,000 (this was extrapolated from Livvy's "smoke, mirrors and funny money" days when the numbers were boosted by the club effectively being a creche taht was cheaper even than the local cinema.....those days are gone. It is still staggering how many people get into football and despite their supposed business acumen, fall flat on their faces. I know rather well a chap who has been involved at the coal face of football club administration, and he says you always but always run into the same root problem.....ego....and a belief that things (money) will be much much better in the SPL.

Agreed - I was just making the point large creditors do it every day and are used to the process. While the club might be daft they are not stupid and to steady the ship you sort these creditors first and generally sort the smaller ones later (maybe hoping some of them go away?)

Isn't there any amazement down Livingston way that after the administration 13 or so years ago (where debt went unpaid and the slate was wiped clean), and the administration three or so years ago (where millions of pounds of debt went unpaid and the slate was wiped clean), that here we are in 2008 and you talking about financially "steadying the ship". Doesn't it say something about the whole way business has been done at Almondvale?
Hypothetically, if Livingston were again to enter administration, would Livvy fans think that was morally and ethically ok?

There is merely amazement, Duncan, that you are actually still ranting on about it.

Too many Livi fans cant tell the difference between "doom and gloom" and reality. These fans are the ones who have seen more of within the club than most fans. Too many of the fans are being sucked in, believing that Massone and his cronies are the messiah's we've always been looking for. Pearse was a clever businessman, a cruel businessman, but clever none the less, I suspect that all creditors are signed to Livingston FC the business, and that means whoever owns the club at the time. I for one, don't trust the Italian Consortium, I am not getting carried away with a little success on the field. Too much of what they are saying are pretty much what the gullible Livi wants want to here, both the "Letter to the fans" and that post online, are filled with typical business talk. Look at any PLCs anual reports and the chairman and managing director will talk a lot of shit about the things they are improving but they will generally leave out the not so good stuff, look at some of the annual reports of some businesses that have went out of business years ago, I'm sure you would find the same talk (old Safeway for example, I doubt they will have been saying, oh we are throwing money away and are close to going out of business, but they did).

Open your eyes, fair enough, get behind them, but they have to gain trust, has nobody learned from our three previous chairmen, that they should not be instantly trusted, but if things are still good in a few years and all bad rumours and facts have gone, then they will have gained trust. Trusting them entirely, when he is telling some of our most long term loyal fans to "go and support Celtic and Rangers", after only a few months, its not good.

Duncan Freeman, you are now talking a lot of sense. Be assured that this Livi fan is not happy about the way things have gone through the reigns of Keane and Flynn. I got sucked in to supporting what is my local team 13 years ago and for my sins I am still a die hard fan in spite of the sh*te we have had to put up with in recent times from our previous owners. I'd love us to be run by a consortium of local business men a la Dunfermline or a die hard fan like Dundee United or an astute business man like Aberdeen but we are much to young a club for that. So we are at the mercy of the latest individual or group that comes along and wants to use the club for 5 minutes to try out some experiment or other. I just like football and I like following my local team. Like you or any other fan I have to just put up with whatever happens in the Boardroom. We have a wee core of fans now who will follow the team till its death throws. After the heady days of 3rd in the SPL they have been to hell and back with administration, relegation fights, court cases and signing bans to name but a few and are still hanging on in there. I enjoyed the bottom league as much as the top league and if we manage to avoid ultimately going bust and end up back in the third I'll still be there. In the meantime all the fans of other clubs out there who are thoroughly enjoying this latest (mini?) crisis at Livi don't forget to look over your shoulder from time to time. If HBOS, Lehmann and XL can go from prosperity to trouble so quickly it is not beyond the realms of possibility that some presently prosperous football clubs could do likewise.

I look forward to you getting back to bleating on about our Celtic connections cos it will mean there's nothing much else for you to snipe at.

Bollocks, there were family tickets that gave you a child for £30 ontop of the adults price but no two for one deals or 3 for 1, season tickets were £240 west stand i think, i had one but hard to mind exactly what it was, christ knows where your getting this pish from and you a Falkirk fan, bloody sure i don't know the price of your ST 4 years ago.

Au contraire. Wimbledon fans were so pissed off when their club was franchise to Milton Keynes, that they formed their own club, AFC Wimbledon. A club that is thriving and will be back in the English football league one day. A club that is run by the fans for the fans. A club where by being a member of the trust, you have a stake and own part of your football club. There is another way.

Anyway, it seems to me that a few Meadowbank/Livingston fans have used the birth of a new club, following the death of Meadowbank Thistle to carry out business with Lavvie FC. They seem to have had their hands burnt...some more than once! A lot of the rest of the Lavvie fans are Johnny-come-late and would believe ANYTHING that any club owner told them.

I file Livingston FC with the Mk Dongs - a plastic football club!

The owners say theres no problems financialy, nobody has any proof one way or the other that they're lieing, all we know is small businesses are owed money from Flynns era and Massone is seeking court procedings from Flynn. The rest is speculations, the cynics fear the worst and i suppose you can't blame them with what's went on before, the Livi haters are jumping on the bandwagon and loving it, the rest of us are criticised for having our head in the sand but untill theres any proof i prefer to go with the flow, feckall i can do about it one way or another, so i'm not going to slit my wrists worrying about what might happen, got real life things that concern me, personal things that i can at least have influence on, every day to day things that affect me and my family, the same as everyone else, these things are more important for me to worry about.

Heres the prime example of the Livi hater, or as commonly known as a twat.

Aye, we ken.

FFS you backed Flynn and are still doing so, hardly in a possition to criticise anyone willing to give the chairman a break, they've been getting it tight from these individuals before a ball was kicked, they've inherited all the misstrust from DK and Flynns eras, they're not even getting a bloody season to see where we are, all this shite is from when Flynn was in charge, if the club had zero debt when these guys took over then i'd see the justification in giving them shit, but they've inherited the debt and are saying they are managing it without cause for concern, what exactly are you or anyone else gaining by heaping shit on them anyway.

A hater with just cause though. I was at the protests agaist fat blobby.



Indeed. Just need to keep reminding you though.

Really, you don't.

This is true but maybe there were more bodies to call on for such a feat after 113 years of existence and a fair sized fan base.

West Lothian fans have got a taste now for local league football so if things continue the way they have at Livingston for so long and it all went belly up I would not rule out an attempt to get something started. Don't forget there is also no pyramid system here in Scotland for clubs to progress to the third division which makes the scenario of plastic francise clubs that bit more more likely.

If I'm reading you correctly it looks like you at least do now see that there are many businesses owed money by LFC. The Anthill Mob are (wrongly) telling them to chase after Pearse Flynn and are chasing him through the courts themselves (for what reason I'm not exactly sure). But what have they to say about the debt that they themselves have accrued that is clearly causing concern for the people out of pocket? This is what I'd like to know. There was nothing said about that in his post on the Livi fans web site and his letters to folk that are waiting on their money.

Saying it and doing it are different things.

Look at the evidence!

What are you basing this assumption on?

I backed Flynn most of the time, and certain things I still back him on. In this case, I am not backing him, I am merely stating the fact that he was a clever businessman and almost certainly would not have debts signed to him, in case he ever planned to sell the club, so he could then get out quick. I backed him because without him in both cases at either end of his reign we could have been without a club (he was the only proper potential investor at the beginning, and when the money was running out at the end, he actively looked for investors or a buyer). I may have not agreed with him on his way of doing things, but what he was doing (that were public knowledge) I didnt disagree with.

What a load of shite.Can we add to that list. Dundee Utd, Aberdeen, St,Mirren, Motherwell, Kilmarnock,ICT,Falkirk, St.Johnstone, Dundee, Dunfermline, Partick Thistle, QoS, Morton, Raith Rovers and Ayr Utd . All bigger clubs, all real clubs.

Meadowbank Thistle /Livingston in the SPL??? look what happened the last time.

Will they ever learn??

think your missing the point he was saying those clubs as they are in general the ones we compete with for support. also are you saying that in 50 years all those teams are GUARANTEED to be bigger than LFC?if so your a fud.

also ICT?real club?personally dont have a problem with them but i think you'll find a fair few invernessians who would take issue with you on that one.

lol @ the really poor trolls in this topic.

Yes. Most of those clubs are atm bigger clubs. The word ALWAYS was in that list. We are definately advancing as a club at the moment. Yes, that might not last for ever, or if you believe the rumours circulating at the moment, much longer. But just as we have to accept the possibility that the Italians might not be as big/bad/ugly as they're claiming to be, we also should accept that they might get near it.

And if so, it could be a great future for the club.

I remember finishing in the SPL in 3rd. That'll do me. I'll live on that for the rest of my life.

Yeah, you've taken it a bit out of context.

I remember us finishing 3rd as well.( and we did it without stiffing our creditors and nearly going down the pan)

Massone should retract the comment about 'fake fans'. That would be the decent thing to do.