Reports from todays papers -

Daily Record - "SPL Chiefs last night hit out at UEFA for maintaining the right for Scottish Cup Runners-up to compete in Europe "

Sun - "Lex Gold last night hailed the decision by UEFA chief Michael Platini to ban domestic cup runners-up from the revamped UEFA Cup "


How can you get such differeing facts on the same subject ?

How can you use the word 'fact' in the same page as The Sun and Record ?

UEFA members rejected it. Cup runners-up are still in, forever. Gordon Smith celebrated prematurely.

(And as an aside, since I can't resist a bit of a moan on this one... what exactly has it got to do with Lex Gold? He is head of the SPL, which - along with the SFL, HFL, EOSFL, SOSFL - is a member of the SFA. The SPL should have nothing to do with the allocation of European places. Another example was the creation of the third UEFA Cup place back in May - Ian Blair of the SPL was interviewed on Radio Scotland about his negotiations with UEFA. What was his mandate? Why not give it to League Cup?).

Shouldn't the Daily Record's say SFA chiefs? If it was indeed Smith who was happy at this and Lex has sfa to do with it, sure he's unhappy as less teams in his division get spots in Europe (I agreed with him wanted the next spot in SPL to get it) but he matters nothing when it comes to Europe. Smith is the man for that.

I wanted this to go through though, as much as I like to see a small club get a crack at Europe, they always get KO'd at the first hurdle (I know Rangers did it this year but that's a 1 off for us), this doesn't really help Scottish or even their co-efficience, does it? At least one of the SPL sides have a better chance of making it through, which normally is a tricky tie (even for the OF as they always under-estimate smaller European sides).

Good news.

TBH honest the co-efficient argument is a bit of a smokescreen. The co-efficient points gained for a win by the weakest UEFA Cup place (which is what the cup runner-up takes) are minor. From next season, the cup runner-up would enter in Qualifying R2 and would need to win 3 rounds to reach the group stage and start being awarded 'full' points (as opposed to half points), and to start counting in the division of points by clubs. So cup runners-up qualifying doesn't really harm the co-efficient at all.

Of course, few if any pundits or media commentators understand that, so they just say it as if its fact.

Also - how often have cup runners-up performed much worse than the 3rd placed finisher? In recent years Dunfermline, Dundee Utd, Hibs, Livingston to name but a few have all gone out in their first tie. Motherwell might do so tomorrow. I think it's false to claim that 4th/5th in SPL will always do better.

I am sure you will agree then only the champions of a country should make the champions league, with the runners up making the Uefa Cup.

Dont get this, its like second place (LOSERS) getting in the champions league

To be honest though that's not really true is it?

By an extraordinary coincidence the last three years have seen two SFL teams (Gretna and QoS) and one SPL member who had gotten themselves relegated (Dunfermline) qualify for the UEFA Cup. It's not like that happens every year though is it? When was the last time pre-Gretna that a lower division side qualified for Europe through the cup? It's never happened (though Raith did back when the League Cup was a route). When was the last time a non-SPL side even reached the final pre-Gretna? Falkirk in 97 (who didn't get into Europe as a result). And before that? Hell knows.

Fundamentally this will almost certainly make no odds to the number of SPL members playing in Europe each year for years to come.


All perfectly valid comment that seems to escape those who wax off about it. It's amazing how many people peddle the "Queens defeat harms the co-efficient" nonsense.


Indeed. An irony that appears to fly right over Mr Gold's head. And that of Michel Platini.

Yes, I would have it that way, but if 2 spots for the CL are available, it's only right to give to the top 2 in the SPL.

Therefore if there is a spot up for grabs for the Scottish Cup and the winners have already qualified, like the Champions League where it goes to the second place team, then it is only right to give it to the Scottish Cup runners up spot, surely?

To be honest and as others have said, the only reason there is debate about this is because teams from the 1st Division have qualified through this route in the past three seasons. Most seasons the runners up will be from the SPL. Who would have batted an eyelid had it been Killie or Hearts that qualified this way? I see people's point that say the higher up the SPL you are the more likely you are going to be to get a decent result. However, it does not always work that way. In fact take away Aberdeen last year and you have to go back a long way for any Scottish team outwith the old firm doing anything in the Uefa Cup. I think Hearts might have reached the group stages once or twice and that is it.

It would take a cold heart to suggest that Queens performance in Europe was worse than any of the SPL teams that have already exited. Therefore I am glad this route of qualification is still open to any team that happens to gain entry courtesy of being runners up. This route has been in place for decades and has never been a problem so let's not make it one now.

At a time when we are trying to boost our co-efficient why do we continue to shoot ourselves in the foot by giving Queens & Gretna access to europe ? Who's turn is it this year - Ayr Utd ?
If the ultra-diddy teams want to enter european competitions win promotion and finish high enough in SPL .
Aberdeen , Hearts , Utd etc are no great yardstick but they will at least do marginally better than anything from the lower divisions.
It's for the benefit of Scottish football that european qualification is based on league position or winning the Scottish.

Have you read anything about how the co-efficient works or would that not suit your argument?

Anyway I bet you will not be crying about Uefa Cup entry when you drop into the Uefa Cup after the group stages of the Champions League. Surely that is a something that Uefa should be looking to stop?

Yes i know how the co-efficient works - it's based on the performances of the country's representatives over a 5 year period. 2 points for a win & 1 for a draw. For example in season 2006/07 Rangers gained 13 points , Celtic 11 , Hearts 2.5 & Gretna weighed in with a mighty half a point .
As you can see it does suit my argument. Hibs , Aberdeen etc would probably have at least equalled Hearts tally.(or doubled Gretnas')
Parachuting into the UEFA Cup is not something i agree with ...if you don't finish in top 2 you should be eliminated . I suppose it suits UEFA to keep 2/3rd tier teams such as Celtic purely for commercial purposes.

The same Hibs who lost without scoring to a team knocked out by St Patrick's Athletic this week?

The same Aberdeen who were deservedly beaten 4-3 by Queen of the South last season (something that to be fair they themselves and their fans have acknowledged) and currently sit second bottom of the SPL?

Yep, plenty of evidence there to suggest they'd have added a lot more to Scotland's co-efficient than us.

The fact is that sticking the 4th team in the SPL into the UEFA Cup rather than the Cup runner up is seriously unlikely to make any odds at all to Scotland's co-efficient. And since it doesn't then I don't see why blocking a route for the unlikely dreamers is anything to strive for. I wouldn't have missed our experiences in the last year for the world and I'd love it if every lower division side one day gets a similar chance.

EDITED to add: It's a fairly pointless observation but it amuses me none-the-less. Not only have Queen of the South scored more goals in European competition this season than Celtic, Rangers, Motherwell and Hibernian COMBINED (in eight games) but Robert Harris remains the only Scotsman to score a goal in European competition this season (unless anyone obscure scored for an Icelandic or Irish side or something like that).

The fact is that in 4 euro games Queens and Gretna mustered 1 point between them from 4 games.
5 seasons of abject failure such as this would only add 5 points to the co-efficiency.
Personally i have no wish for clubs outwith SPL (unless they win the Scottish Cup) to embark on these far flung journeys to the Faroes , Iceland etc , where most times they are eliminated , at the expense of the Scottish football reputation in europe.

And the fact is that in 4 games THIS SEASON the next best that the SPL has to offer, Motherwell and Hibernian, have ALSO departed Europe in the first tie and without scoring a single goal or gaining a single "point".

Did you have a point? What was it again?

As you will know Hibs were in the inter-toto cup and that has no relevance to the co-efficient unless they progressed so we can dismiss their impact on this seasons euro results.
That would leave only Motherwell who were unfortunate to be paired against a decent French team.Maybe another season the draw will be kinder to the 3rd place team in SPL and progress will be achieved.

The relevance you appear to be completely missing time after time is that there's absolutely ZERO evidence in FACT for this assertion you make that a 4th SPL team would have added something to the co-efficient that having cup runners up in it doesn't.

The 3rd best SPL team went out without getting a point or a goal against a fairly average French side. The 6th best SPL side last season were abject in the Intertoto which certainly doesn't suggest there was any merit in your claim that they would "probably at least have equalled Hearts tally of 2.5 points" had they been given the chance. The 4th best SPL side were in FACT beaten on merit by the self same cup runners up you'd like banned from European competition along the way.

I never said that it was a fact that 4th place would add to the efficient - IMO i think they will add.
However, it is a FACT that the cup runners-up have added the bare minimum in europe.
As i previously stated the inter-toto bears no relevance to the issue and Motherwell ,IMO, were unlucky to get drawn against a decent French team.

Wrong, Kevin Thomson scored the Rangers goal in Kaunus.

Did he?

Apologies, I thought it was Velicka.

Of course it bears relevance to the issue. How can it NOT have relevence? They lost their first game in the Intertoto to a side who went on to lose in the UEFA Cup proper to St Patrick's Athletic. What possible grounds are there to believe Hibs would have done any better in the UEFA Cup? None.

And Nancy are far from outstanding, a very average French side and just about the easiest draw Motherwell could have gotten from their range of possible opponents. In fact they were quite LUCKY to get Nancy as most Motherwell fans on here have been saying.

Incidentally, cup-runners up have added plenty in Europe before and will again. What you are really saying is cup-runners up shouldn't get in if they are also not an SPL side. Which is taking self-protectionism to a whole new level.

No, it was a sitter he missed

Yep, KT scored his 2nd goal for us that night.

Although, the keeper really should have saved it IMO.

Hibs being in the inter-toto bears absolutely no relevance to the co-efficient. It is basically a bonus round for teams trying to gain entry to europe. As they weren't successful it has no affect.
It is only your opinion that Nancy were average- i think they looked like they could have stepped up another couple of gears if they had to , again , just an opinion.
What clubs , from outwith SPL , have 'added plenty in Europe before...' ??
Self-protectionism? I have stated previously that if Celtic finish 3rd in their group they should be out of europe but UEFA have dictated otherwise. It is only the reputation and standing of Scottish football in general that i would like to protect by getting rid of this ridiculous rule we have by allowing clubs from lower divisions access to europe and subsequently contributing nothing.
Looks like we shall have to agree to disagree . Good luck in the cup this season ( no further than semi-final though )

So far as I'm aware no club from outwith the SPL (or its forerunner) has added anything much to the co-efficient. I never said they had. What I said was that cup runners up had done so before and would again no doubt. You do realise that on occasion the cup runner up qualifier actually IS an SPL team, right? In arguing that it's wrong to allow the cup runner up in (which is a valid point of view even if one I don't agree with) you can't simply pick and choose the runners up you want to look at in the past. It might easily be 20 years or more before another non-SPL side does it.

And for the umpteenth time I'm well aware that Hibs Intertoto defeat has no direct relevance to UEFA co-efficients (as indeed our qualifying round defeat has no direct relevance either). The point is that the fact they got very easily beaten by a side who themselves went on to lose to an Irish League team would very much suggest that your assertion that they would have earned 2.5 points had the been in the UEFA Cup is utter bollocks. Since the Intertoto is in effect a pre-qualifying round of the UEFA Cup it's very easy to argue that they in fact were in it and earned the square root of feck all towards a co-efficient.

One decent effort from Aberdeen last season and a half average effort from Hearts a few season ago doesn't disguise the fact that by and large the SPL sides outwith the Old Firm have done nothing in Europe for over a decade either and both of the sides mentioned who did do something did so as 3rd place league qualifiers and would have been completely unaffected whether the cup runners up got in or not.

At the end of the day you can believe it's wrong for cup runners up to qualify for Europe if you like. That's a conceptual opinion. What you can't successfully do is make any sort of a coherent case that them not doing would make any noticeable difference to Scotland's UEFA coefficient.

Just to confirm - no club should gain access to europe via the cup (runner-up) no matter what league they are from.
I believe Hearts gained 5 times the points total than the cup runners-up Gretna.Does that not suggest a 'coherent case'?

There are times when I wonder if you actually read anything at all from the post you quote before posting again?

Hearts qualified third in the league. Their qualification or otherwise was unaffected by whether or not in that particular year the cup runner up had gotten in.

Hearts is one example you happen to have picked to suit your own case anyway. Apart from Hearts that season and Aberdeen last year find me another example of a non-OF qualifier (by any manner) scoring more than 1 pt in co-efficient terms in Europe in the last decade? I genuinely haven't looked by the way but I can't recall one. If you can't find one your case is moot.

As I've already said, you can believe conceptually all you like that cup runners up shouldn't get in. That's fair enough though I don't agree. But the arguments that letting them in harms in any way Scotland's co-efficient do not stand up to scrutiny.

Of course i read my previous posts...
clubs which have gained more than 1 point towards co-efficient in the last decade are Aberdeen ,Killie(twice) , Hearts(three times) and Dundee Utd.
I have deliberately omitted St.Johnstone ,Dundee and Hibs as ,whilst SPL teams , they qualified as cup runners-up.
Aberdeens' contribution was from season 02/03 and Hearts from seasons 00/01 & 04/05 - not their more recent efforts.

The co-efficient argument is totally warped anyway IMO. A co-efficient helps us get more clubs in Europe - but when they get in, we moan about them losing!! It's useful, but not the utmost priority.

It isn't up to SFA whether cup runners-up qualify or not - UEFA decided they will. This is because most countries don't have unseeded cups with replays = less concern over 'minnows' getting in.

We finished 3rd in the League to qualify!

1998-99 season. I stand corrected. That actually suits my argument as i can add Saints to the list as they also gained more than 1 point.

as someone has stated, i think they should give the place to the league cup. otherwise it is a slightly pointless "diddy" cup (that we have never won )

What did Dundee and Hibs score in points towards a coefficient when they qualified as runners up in the cup?

Dundee season 03/04 2.4points
Hibs season 05/06 2.4points
And now you are going to argue the case (again) for cup runners-up?

I don’t think there can be any doubt that with only 4 European places, it is unfair for cup runners-up to be given one of them. Now that we have got 5 places, it makes it slightly more acceptable. I’d still rather it went to the league positions. A playoff would be good on paper but logistically this wouldn’t be possible.

I'm going to maintain the position I had before, that fundamentally the difference in contributions made by the cup runner up compared to that of a 4th place SPL side would over the piece be negligible and arguments against letting cup runners up in based on the perceived harm they do to the co-efficient remain laughable.

As I've said before, you wish to believe it's wrong to let anyone in through the cups if they haven't actually won it then that's fair enough. I don't agree but it's a valid point of view. Trying to justify that point of view as having much if any relevance to Scotland's co-efficient (which really would only serve to let more teams in that would just reduce it again) is fruitless though.

Why can't there "be any doubt"?

It's an opinion, your opinion, not mine. It's open to as much doubt as I or anyone else care to cast on it. I think it's equally "unfair" for all the places available to be allocated to the one competition, which is incidentally closed to about half of Scotland's clubs.

As for the "5 places". We've had five places for years, all they've done is formalise the Intertoto as a qualifying round of the UEFA and make it compulsory to enter it. It's been available for the 4th place SPL all along if they actually wanted it.

Oh jesus. IN MY OPINION, I don't think there should be any doubt.......



The compulsory element is crucial and what I was acknowledging.

Fair enough. There is a case for both sides of discussion.
Queens for the SPL next season? You would certainly get bigger gates than Accies or Gretna , what do you think youre average would be? I'm guessing 3500-4500.

One thing that should hopefully pacify the "anti-cup-runners-up" camp is that, with the Intertoto slot being absorbed into the UEFA Cup, at least the cup runner-up would enter even earlier, and would require to win a lot more game to actually reach the full rounds and/or cause any major damage to the co-efficient. Now IMO damage to the co-efficient is largely immaterial, but other people disagree...

To pick out the League Cup point - it appears that the SFA never openly considered awarding it to the SFL and therefore the league cup. It seems that it was only ever going to the SPL (4th), end of story. While there are arguments for or against this, I think you have to look at the rest of Europe where the only countries giving their League Cup a UEFA Cup place are France and England, both of whom have 4 UEFA Cup slots. If and when we rise high enough to get 4 UEFA Cup slots, we can give one to the SFL, but until that time I think it is more sensible to give 2 to the SPL, and other to the Scottish Cup.

I don't know that it is crucial though is it? The chance for a 4th SPL side to play in Europe has been there all along regardless of a cup runner up debate. I've never really understood why more of them don't go for it. Credit to Hibs for doing so even if they did end up with egg on their collective faces as a result.


The average now is over 3,000 (though that's up 1,000 from last season basically on the back of the cup final) and that's achieved with away supports of between 200 and 500 typically. I'd have thought the novelty of it would mean at least early season we'd average over 4,000 if we were an SPL team in Dumfries. Maybe over 5,000 depending on a typical SPL away travelling support? I take it most SPL sides would bring 500 or more (Inverness excluded) and the Old Firm and Edinburgh sides would probably take all the tickets they'd be allowed (about 2,000 most likely).

Technically I disagree with cup riunners up getting in but I'd have been delighted to have taken that if we ever dont get drawn against one of the OF in our semi finals.

I think cup winners should get a playoff for the 2nd Champions league spot as we have confirmed that runners up dont deserve an automatic European spot.