QUOTE
The New Sectarianism and its Perpetrators
Written by OlegKuznetsov
Wednesday, 10 September 2008
I have a confession. Recently, after the joyous Old Firm victory away to our oldest and keenest rivals, I indulged in a bit of online schadenfreude. I admit it. I lurked. I gloated. And I enjoyed it. I'm not too obsessed with my rivals, but after hearing some over-confidence in the voices of the Celtic fans in my local, I was keen to see the emotional pay back. I saw they had a special thread for us, using their own favourite sectarian epithet. (Yes, sectarian! Look it up.) I had a gander. I had another laugh.
Then I noticed something else-something that we often hear of these days. It was the paranoid Celtic obsessive with a sense of persecution. He was not alone. There were many of them. I'm sure there are still a decent number of sane Celtic fans, but you can't hear the quiet rational man amidst the wall of noise created by the many lunatics. Some of the paranoid fantasies were bizarre. Frankly, I found them hilarious. Nonetheless they do have a sinister side.
Whilst I fully accept that it's worthy and admirable to fight against injustices, I think it only applies if the injustice in question is real. Yes, we'll always have some genuine prejudice scattered throughout society, but the prevalence is, or rather was, declining and is a two way street. Don't take my word for it. Have a look at any crime or demographic study of Scotland over recent decades. Racism-real racism- is still a bigger, more serious problem and I genuinely feel sorry for our colleagues who are deemed to be potential terrorists because they have a certain appearance, especially in these times of "Islamaphobia". By comparison, sectarianism is like heated argument against a backdrop of a full scale brawl.
By way of example, I give you little taster of this delusional paranoia in the quotes below.
Celtic Fan #1:
"Catholics in Scotland, and particularly those with Irish connections are not free. We are enslaved by bigots. Treated as sub-human, ironically, by sub-humans. We are intimidated by intolerant, violent thugs who's ethos is built on hate and lies"
-------------
Celtic Fan #2
"In what way?"
--------------
Celtic Fan #1
"Apologies for the delay in the reply.
Is that a genuine question MM? I find it difficult to believe that if you are Irish, Catholic, or a Celtic supporter then you don't know what I mean.(I fit in to two of the three criteria) I would gladly expand my point if I didn't think you were at it.
A good place to start would be the notion of 'no-go' areas. I may be wrong but it's my impression that this is one of Ulster's exports. I can then make the association with the plight of the African American pre Rosa Parks.
I could also go on to cite numerous examples....first hand, but I was under the illusion that anybody with a similar background as me would have similar experiences:
Quote from the head of the local Licencing Committee to one of my former employers:
"You fenians are getting too big for your boots and I'm gonna close you down."
I could also cite numerous examples of masons in the 4th estate going out of their way to help fellow masons dodge charges. That makes it a two tear legal system in my book.
My own movement is restricted because I know that if I visit certain places I will be subject to abuse or even violence because of what I am: a catholic Celtic supporter.
There are many definitions of slavery, I suppose, but:
Restriction of movement
Restriction of opportunity
Restriction of access to justice.
Is that the lot of a free man? I don't think so. What would you call it MM? "
--------------------
Yes, people. He did compare the life of the modern Celtic fan as akin to that of Rosa Parks and African American slaves. Personally, I find that an insult to all those persecuted by slavery and segregation. This paranoid delusion is accompanied by hypocrisy. Isn't it ironic that he labels a section of society as "sub-human" whilst railing against "bigotry"? Irony is not their strong suit.
It's really unbelievable how delusional these people are. They must walk down the street scowling at strangers, who in turn look back quizzically at the strange fellow with the aggressive expression. They have so little in the way of self-awareness and social skills that they think these puzzled expressions are all "h*n masons" keeping them down in line with some huge big bad proddy conspiracy.
I have many Catholic relatives, friends and colleagues. I have never heard one tale of this "daily persecution" to which they refer, from anyone in my social circle.
These fanatics are simply delusional. How can you tell someone's religion if they dress in a manner consistent with the broad spectrum of current fashions? I can see the point if they're a member of the clergy in dog collar and the like, but 99% of the population aren't and I'm quite sure that not all Celtic supporters are clergymen in full attire and that's where the issue reaches a crux.
They are trying to conflate the term "Celtic supporter" with Irish Catholic, whilst playing the victim card, thus meaning that in any scuffle between Old Firm fans, they are by definition the victim and we are the aggressor. It's a mentality that has been with them for decades. I recall the father of a friend who was as bitter a Catholic as you could find. He indoctrinated his son in anti-British (hey isn't that "racist" timmy?) sentiment and IRA fanatacism. He was the sort of guy who hated the Orange Walk but had to turn up in green trousers complete with tricolour shirt. He wasn't attacked for it, but probably got a few looks. The point is that he looked for confrontation. He needed to search out that which offended him. To me, that's a warped and twisted mind.
I believe that this persecution complex which almost consumes their identity, is responsible for prolonging and intensifying a recent wave of sectarianism, unfortunately at a time when sectarianism was dying out. The internet has allowed them to be more organised in their communication and dissemination of propaganda. However, it has also allowed them to work themselves up into the kind of frenzy that was reserved for the Brazen Head and its ilk.
This neo-sectarianism of the Celtic fan with access to the internet, has seen the farcical UEFA emailing campaign and the desire to be hurt by any possible willful misinterpretation available, and has been the hallmark of recent years. This, I think, is the cause of this recent intensification of hostilities.
Most people can look at these claims and see them as something rather trivial with no real goal other than point-scoring and besmirching their rivals. They can even see where this sort of obsession can lead and will say that it's time to give it a rest.
Yet there remain those who think there is still a big issue and that songs and words must be tackled. To those, I say fair enough, but at least be even-handed. If you're going to accept interpretations of certain words that defy their normal definition in order to expose the greatest possible offence, then do so with balance. Why are derogations using the term "orange" -which can only refer to Protestants- considered acceptable, whilst those using "fenian" -which refers to Irish rebels and is not exclusive to Roman Catholics- seen as unacceptable? There's an inconsistency and an inversion of logic and language going on here.
Rules and laws must be applied equally and universally. You can't be selective. You can't make it up as you go along. If you go down that road you only exercise a prejudice that mirrors the one you claim to solving. Despairing at alleged "anti-Irishness", even labelling it racism, whilst dismissing, or worse still indulging in, "anti-Britishness" isn't going to give you a very strong argument, or much credibility for that matter. You will only end up looking like a hypocrite and a fool.
This hypocrisy and foolishness is compounded when those with a platform give an air of credibility to it. In this category, I will name Martin O'Neill and Graham Spiers. Both of these individuals have been guilty of stirring up the level of sectarianism by offering a highly controversial, inconsistent and hypocritical analysis, so bitter and biased that it doesn't even hide their agenda. You only have to compare quotes from this misanthropic duo to see their crass hypocrisy. Together they deliver a master class in self contradiction.
I'm sure that Celtic fans won't fully agree with my comments, but it's clear that they feel things are getting worse from the below post:
-------------
Celtic Fan #3
"I have 3 children. If, when they become old enough to make these kind of choices, they approached me to say that they were thinking about emigrating to another country, I think I'd actively encourage it. I wouldn't have said that, even a couple of years ago.
Shi ty little insular, backward country. Nice scenery, though"
-------------
Well, you "Celtic-minded" chaps started this campaign to find offence in anything and everything includng the word "bouncy". Now you've ended up very offended and acquired some form of paranoid delusion. You got rid of some songs but got others you didn't like. Don't pretend to be aghast at insulting words in the heat of a highly charged derby, because you've been caught singing worse yourselves. Furthermore, the examples from your own song book cover every area you claim to be offended about.
When you whine about the evils of conspiracy and the victims of sectarianism, real or imaginary, just remember who started the ball rolling. Oh, and thank you Graham Spiers and Martin O'Neill. Your bitter, hypocritical and inconsistent rants have actively encouraged a new paranoid, but highly charged form of sectarianism. Much like the Celtic support you defend, you have no moral high ground. You only have delusions, lies and hypocrisy.
http://www.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?op...47&Itemid=2
Written by OlegKuznetsov
Wednesday, 10 September 2008
I have a confession. Recently, after the joyous Old Firm victory away to our oldest and keenest rivals, I indulged in a bit of online schadenfreude. I admit it. I lurked. I gloated. And I enjoyed it. I'm not too obsessed with my rivals, but after hearing some over-confidence in the voices of the Celtic fans in my local, I was keen to see the emotional pay back. I saw they had a special thread for us, using their own favourite sectarian epithet. (Yes, sectarian! Look it up.) I had a gander. I had another laugh.
Then I noticed something else-something that we often hear of these days. It was the paranoid Celtic obsessive with a sense of persecution. He was not alone. There were many of them. I'm sure there are still a decent number of sane Celtic fans, but you can't hear the quiet rational man amidst the wall of noise created by the many lunatics. Some of the paranoid fantasies were bizarre. Frankly, I found them hilarious. Nonetheless they do have a sinister side.
Whilst I fully accept that it's worthy and admirable to fight against injustices, I think it only applies if the injustice in question is real. Yes, we'll always have some genuine prejudice scattered throughout society, but the prevalence is, or rather was, declining and is a two way street. Don't take my word for it. Have a look at any crime or demographic study of Scotland over recent decades. Racism-real racism- is still a bigger, more serious problem and I genuinely feel sorry for our colleagues who are deemed to be potential terrorists because they have a certain appearance, especially in these times of "Islamaphobia". By comparison, sectarianism is like heated argument against a backdrop of a full scale brawl.
By way of example, I give you little taster of this delusional paranoia in the quotes below.
Celtic Fan #1:
"Catholics in Scotland, and particularly those with Irish connections are not free. We are enslaved by bigots. Treated as sub-human, ironically, by sub-humans. We are intimidated by intolerant, violent thugs who's ethos is built on hate and lies"
-------------
Celtic Fan #2
"In what way?"
--------------
Celtic Fan #1
"Apologies for the delay in the reply.
Is that a genuine question MM? I find it difficult to believe that if you are Irish, Catholic, or a Celtic supporter then you don't know what I mean.(I fit in to two of the three criteria) I would gladly expand my point if I didn't think you were at it.
A good place to start would be the notion of 'no-go' areas. I may be wrong but it's my impression that this is one of Ulster's exports. I can then make the association with the plight of the African American pre Rosa Parks.
I could also go on to cite numerous examples....first hand, but I was under the illusion that anybody with a similar background as me would have similar experiences:
Quote from the head of the local Licencing Committee to one of my former employers:
"You fenians are getting too big for your boots and I'm gonna close you down."
I could also cite numerous examples of masons in the 4th estate going out of their way to help fellow masons dodge charges. That makes it a two tear legal system in my book.
My own movement is restricted because I know that if I visit certain places I will be subject to abuse or even violence because of what I am: a catholic Celtic supporter.
There are many definitions of slavery, I suppose, but:
Restriction of movement
Restriction of opportunity
Restriction of access to justice.
Is that the lot of a free man? I don't think so. What would you call it MM? "
--------------------
Yes, people. He did compare the life of the modern Celtic fan as akin to that of Rosa Parks and African American slaves. Personally, I find that an insult to all those persecuted by slavery and segregation. This paranoid delusion is accompanied by hypocrisy. Isn't it ironic that he labels a section of society as "sub-human" whilst railing against "bigotry"? Irony is not their strong suit.
It's really unbelievable how delusional these people are. They must walk down the street scowling at strangers, who in turn look back quizzically at the strange fellow with the aggressive expression. They have so little in the way of self-awareness and social skills that they think these puzzled expressions are all "h*n masons" keeping them down in line with some huge big bad proddy conspiracy.
I have many Catholic relatives, friends and colleagues. I have never heard one tale of this "daily persecution" to which they refer, from anyone in my social circle.
These fanatics are simply delusional. How can you tell someone's religion if they dress in a manner consistent with the broad spectrum of current fashions? I can see the point if they're a member of the clergy in dog collar and the like, but 99% of the population aren't and I'm quite sure that not all Celtic supporters are clergymen in full attire and that's where the issue reaches a crux.
They are trying to conflate the term "Celtic supporter" with Irish Catholic, whilst playing the victim card, thus meaning that in any scuffle between Old Firm fans, they are by definition the victim and we are the aggressor. It's a mentality that has been with them for decades. I recall the father of a friend who was as bitter a Catholic as you could find. He indoctrinated his son in anti-British (hey isn't that "racist" timmy?) sentiment and IRA fanatacism. He was the sort of guy who hated the Orange Walk but had to turn up in green trousers complete with tricolour shirt. He wasn't attacked for it, but probably got a few looks. The point is that he looked for confrontation. He needed to search out that which offended him. To me, that's a warped and twisted mind.
I believe that this persecution complex which almost consumes their identity, is responsible for prolonging and intensifying a recent wave of sectarianism, unfortunately at a time when sectarianism was dying out. The internet has allowed them to be more organised in their communication and dissemination of propaganda. However, it has also allowed them to work themselves up into the kind of frenzy that was reserved for the Brazen Head and its ilk.
This neo-sectarianism of the Celtic fan with access to the internet, has seen the farcical UEFA emailing campaign and the desire to be hurt by any possible willful misinterpretation available, and has been the hallmark of recent years. This, I think, is the cause of this recent intensification of hostilities.
Most people can look at these claims and see them as something rather trivial with no real goal other than point-scoring and besmirching their rivals. They can even see where this sort of obsession can lead and will say that it's time to give it a rest.
Yet there remain those who think there is still a big issue and that songs and words must be tackled. To those, I say fair enough, but at least be even-handed. If you're going to accept interpretations of certain words that defy their normal definition in order to expose the greatest possible offence, then do so with balance. Why are derogations using the term "orange" -which can only refer to Protestants- considered acceptable, whilst those using "fenian" -which refers to Irish rebels and is not exclusive to Roman Catholics- seen as unacceptable? There's an inconsistency and an inversion of logic and language going on here.
Rules and laws must be applied equally and universally. You can't be selective. You can't make it up as you go along. If you go down that road you only exercise a prejudice that mirrors the one you claim to solving. Despairing at alleged "anti-Irishness", even labelling it racism, whilst dismissing, or worse still indulging in, "anti-Britishness" isn't going to give you a very strong argument, or much credibility for that matter. You will only end up looking like a hypocrite and a fool.
This hypocrisy and foolishness is compounded when those with a platform give an air of credibility to it. In this category, I will name Martin O'Neill and Graham Spiers. Both of these individuals have been guilty of stirring up the level of sectarianism by offering a highly controversial, inconsistent and hypocritical analysis, so bitter and biased that it doesn't even hide their agenda. You only have to compare quotes from this misanthropic duo to see their crass hypocrisy. Together they deliver a master class in self contradiction.
I'm sure that Celtic fans won't fully agree with my comments, but it's clear that they feel things are getting worse from the below post:
-------------
Celtic Fan #3
"I have 3 children. If, when they become old enough to make these kind of choices, they approached me to say that they were thinking about emigrating to another country, I think I'd actively encourage it. I wouldn't have said that, even a couple of years ago.
Shi ty little insular, backward country. Nice scenery, though"
-------------
Well, you "Celtic-minded" chaps started this campaign to find offence in anything and everything includng the word "bouncy". Now you've ended up very offended and acquired some form of paranoid delusion. You got rid of some songs but got others you didn't like. Don't pretend to be aghast at insulting words in the heat of a highly charged derby, because you've been caught singing worse yourselves. Furthermore, the examples from your own song book cover every area you claim to be offended about.
When you whine about the evils of conspiracy and the victims of sectarianism, real or imaginary, just remember who started the ball rolling. Oh, and thank you Graham Spiers and Martin O'Neill. Your bitter, hypocritical and inconsistent rants have actively encouraged a new paranoid, but highly charged form of sectarianism. Much like the Celtic support you defend, you have no moral high ground. You only have delusions, lies and hypocrisy.
http://www.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?op...47&Itemid=2
