After realising how huge todays defeat will be in our chances of qualifying, I'm coming to the opinion (and it pains me to say) that we have found our stance in International football as just simply another provincial nation. Lets be honest here football has changed a lot since the 'glory days' of the seventies and eighties with a lot more countries around and football has developed a lot more in other areas of the continent which back then it was nothing. To be honest I would reckon most of the big guns see as similar to a team like Hungary or something. A team who had their prime years ago and now football has developed in a lot of larger countries, we've been left behind and are just seen as one of those mid-ranking teams who are hard to break down and annoying to play against, nothing more, nothing less, and in my opinion I will be really surprised if we ever make a major tournament again within the next thirty years.

Also the lack of really good players coming through continues to worry me. Looking at the current under 21 team I really cannot say I see anyone who is destined for stardom.

We are not the big team we once were, but I feel many people don't realise it yet and feel we should be just as good as we were in years gone by when teams were fewer and weaker.

We haven't qualified for a major tournament for the past 10 years, so of couse we have fell from the position we were once in. I agree that we are nothing more than an average nation, who can make things difficult for the top teams but rarely beat them. The France results are being put into major perspective by Euro 2008 and the fact that Austria are beating the 2-0

Bollocks!

One bad result and you get on Scotland's back.

Can we wait until after the Norway game and see how we are doing.Get a grip man!

The think that always boggles my mind is even most provicial teams have at least one top-quality player, we don't we are a team of very ordinary players. I don't think people can really use the population argument, I think something is fundimentaly wrong in our youth development system.

What is the point in this?

No national fans see their country through un tinted glasses, if you think we're great then all the luck to you.

I don't think the original poster is getting on Scotland's back, in fact I think that it is a well reasoned post. He isn't moaning about poor tactics, lack of effort, inadequate players or more precisely about the result in the game today. He is just saying that Scotland is poorer than a lot of developing nations and is just run of the mill team.
I don't think that is being negative but merely being realistic.
The Euro qualifiers with wins against France and almost qualifying raised fans hopes, unrealistically, in my opinion.

I also think that it's the type of football that is played in Scotland and to a certain extent England that precludes these countries from being major players in the world game. Not enough emphasis is put on skill and keeping the ball and the game is all about pace etc.

I still think that Scotland could qualify but to qualify would be a major achievement and all fans should get behind the team to give them the boost they require. After all the one thing that the Scotland football team does have is fantastic fans, IMO.

There's so much depth in International football now, and countries in and around the Eastern Block seem to be getting better and better. Macedonia beating us, Lithuania winning 3-0 away in Romania and Russia taking the Euro's by storm. Also, shown by some new teams getting in the Champions League, from that sort of area.

I can see a few unfancied sides sneaking through to the World Cup. Should be interesting.

People always harp on now that we can't produce a Dalglish or a Hansen and so on people fail to realise that most former pub standard nations now have decent players and that football at the top level is a lot stronger so it plays down the quality we have a lot more now. FFS look at Cyprus for example, once one of the major whipping boys in Europe they now put together a half decent team, years ago Italy would probably taken about 5 or 6 from them without reply.

I'm not on Scotland's back, I don't want Burley sacked and so forth I'm being realistic. Compared with twenty years ago when you had The Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia you've now got several very good teams emerged from that, and qualifying spots are harder to come by as a result with more competition.

I agree with Engima btw, what I find worrying is that a a really diddy rugby nation like Wales can produce the likes of Gareth Bale and Aaron Ramsey where as who do we have? Kevin McDonald? Graham Dorrans? (maybe not the best examples, but the first two who came to mind).

I agree, it is getting harder to qualify and the spots Europe get in the world cup will continue to go down in the next twenty or so years.

It is a far more global game now, we are just a run of the mill team and have been for some time. The popularity of football is not going to get much higher, in my lifetime it will probably diminish and go back to the core countries like ourselves.

What's worrying, that they have two good players
Wait one good player, and an 18 year old.

Wales have had better players than Scotland for the past 20 years but probably only a better team under Hughes. Giggs, Rush, Hughes, Bellamy and Speed spring to mind.

On topic it is getting much harder to qualify in Europe, Montenegro were unlucky to draw with Bulgaria in their competitive debut today, South Ossetia may be trying to qualify in 4 years time. Scotland can take heart from Norways draw and Holland's loss today, if Scotland win and Macedonia hold Holland on Wednesday it is a wide open group.

Aye ok

We might not have qualified for a tournament for 10 years (hardly a tragic fact in itself) but we've been in three play-off situations since then, so we're hardly in the doldrums.

We are a tiny nation and I believe we consistently punch above our weight on the international stage. Can we really expect anything more?

Also, we don't have any genuine world-class players in the squad but when they come around again (and they surely will) then that would do us a power of good.....that's what makes one little country stand out from the rest.

Name some better ones then wise one, or does Champ man not go back that far?

Broadfoot,Teale, Ryan Esson all players better than the welsh ones.

The Welsh have some good players but they haven't qualified for a tournament since 1958. Even in the glory days of Hughes and Rush - two world class strikers - they couldn't manage it. In fact, we stopped them.....twice.

Saunders and Southall were other top class players at the time, the point I was making was using wales as an example of an unsuccessful team who produce big name players as have Belarus in Hleb, Iceland in Gudjonsson etc.

Problem was they had Strikers playing for the best teams in England but defenders who played for clubs like Bristol City!!!

Alexander, Commons, Naysmith all play for shitter teams.

Do Scotland have strikers for for two of the top English sides?

Rush & Hughes were two of the best strikers in England at the time but the players behind them were championship level at best.......

Well apart from Southall, Bowen & Phillips

I doubt they will. I think, baring the occational one or two quality players we will barely see anything better than what we have now. I hold out little hope for a 'goldern generation'.

True apart from Gordon. Only the Huns would try to claim that he isnt world class after today efforts.

But that's all we can seriously expect, and it would make a huge difference. Look at the Romanian side that featured Hagi and Lakatoosh (excuse the spelling). They could have beaten anyone. Where are Romania now?

Theres no thinking involved, its a no brainer. Youth development in Scotland is a fucking joke. I coach a under 14 side who have been commended when we have played on the continent for 'not playing the normal British way' (this came from a coach of a Danish team we pumped).

We focus on the technical side of the game and teach them to keep possesion of the ball until there is an opening for a shot at goal etc, not like our counterparts who stand beside us on the touchline urging their fullbacks to 'find the channels!', thus forcing the play and losing possesion.

This is the norm in the UK, the emphasis is on pace and getting the ball forward asap with the thinking 'if the balls down their end of the park we cant concead'.

This is how the national team plays, too forceful and everything has to be done at 100mph when if you can calm it down and keep the ball then the openings will appear and you can prosper from it.

Of course what do I know................

Yes we can. Look at Portugal - population is only double Scotland's, and football is more popular in Scotland (than just about anywhere), but they consistently reach the knockout stages of major tournaments, or are expected to do so. Croatia and Czech Republic are even better examples.

I agree with the original poster - Scotland does have to rein in its sporting expectations; international football now features a lot of quality sides and we can't keep on expecting major tournament qualification.

There are various factors which affect our sporting performance - I'd go for our relative wealth as a nation as one such factor. You could argue that "since we have more money we should be throwing more money at youth academies which will breed better players" - however, you'd be a fucking plank if you did so. The problem is that people who are intelligent and gifted at football will choose a more stable career, and perhaps rightly so. In poorer nations the stable career option may not be there, and kids will practice football morning, noon and night in the hope of making a career out of football.

I agree with most of what you have said, but its an interesting point about whether fans expect qualification or merely hope for / are desperate for it. I grew up in the 70s and 80s and certainly there was an expectation then that we would qualify ( something my Dad didnt have as he experienced the barren years between the 50s and 1974 which by a coincidence is the era that some people refer to as our 'golden era' players playing for the jersey and all that guff ). I have certainly moved from the expectation position to one of simply hoping. My kids on the other hand simply dont expect us to qualify and regard tales of us at Wcs and Euros as some sort of historical fable.