As much as I hate to admit this, is anyone else quietly agreeing with McKeown's comments in The Sun about the juniors being "all talk and no trousers" when it came to an opportunity to step up to the SFL?

I think a lot of what the guy says about the juniors is a lot of rubbish, but I'm loathe to admit I think he's right when he says the juniors have missed out on a big opportunity, especially after the success of Linlithgow and Pollok in the Scottish Cup last season.

I know a lot of the big teams don't want to move into the senior ranks, but McKeown seems to suggest that no-one within the junior game has any ambition to move up. I know there are clubs that would like to move on later on and are working to that, but perhaps don't have the infrastructure to do so for now.

Is that a fairer assessment of how things really are with teams, or are we genuinely not interested?

We seem to bump our gums on here about a pyramid and it's a debate that will rage on until the cows come home, but I do think there's been a chance missed when the SFL were looking for applicants to replace Gretna

I think he is an arsehole, but for once he has got it spot on.

If I was at the sfa i would be taking the lack of applictions from junior teams as a clear signal that they dont really want to be involved, and stop them from entering the scottish cup. It should never have happened in the first place anyway.

The boy is an erse.

For alot of junior sides it is not economically viable for them to join the SFL. Mainly due to the cost of traveling and the probable reduction on away fans traveling to their games. Not to mention the cost of improving grounds.

Alot of clubs are struggeling at the moment the last thing they need is to push their costs up.

The best solution would be a couple of national leagues in Scotland and then regional there after. However this would take common sense on the part of the SFA which i doubt will ever happen in my life time!

Des McKeown was spot on with his article on junior clubs.He was criticised last year when he gave his opinion but he was vilified by the lack of interest shown by any junior club when the chance cropped up.

Very few Junior sides have the facilities because they don't get the handouts that the non-league members do.Only one Junior club IMHO currently comes from a decent sized town, has the support and also stadium for the SFL and that is Linlithgow. But that's a club who don't even issue programmes so they're not exactly the most progressive of Junior sides. I'm sure one of their guys was quoted as saying it wasn't for them. At Lok we'd love the chance to, and are on the record as saying so - but we're not in any position to do it just now as our ground is not suitable. Beyond that, Talbot, Newtongrange, Glenrothes and Petershill would also have stadiums closeish to what is required. But that's it.

15% of Junior clubs responded YES to the Pyramid Working Group's question of whether they'd be interested in the SFL at some point.

What is the connection between the Scottish Cup and the Scottish League? 36 non-league clubs automatically enter it every season - only 5 applied for the SFL vacancy. Should they be kicked out the cup too?

MCKeown's highly ill-informed and knows bugger all about non-league football - and anyone who shares his view that there is a connection between SFL entry and Scottish Cup entry is likewise.

Joe has given Des his backing - 'nuff said.

This has been debated on countless occasions. Nothing will change and the best clubs won't end up in the SFL unless and until there is a consistent route in. This is only ever discussed when a team goes tits up. What sort of structure is it that enables a step up only in the most dire of circumstances for a club and its supporters?

Even then, why put a heap of time and effort in so that you can settle for the luck of the draw/whim of the voting clubs to determine your success.

The current system for stepping up is a lot of shite and instead of criticising clubs for not having a go, he'd be better campaigning for a system that combines a level of merit and capability.

As a supporter of a junior team, I'd have been pissed off if my club had thrown good money after bad to develop and submit a bid where the geography of the successful club probably played a huge part in them winning their election to the league. Good luck to Annan all the same.

Incidentally, it's already been said on here that the number of Senior clubs willing to have a pop at league membership is very low - either because they are so far removed from being capable or because they see the same issues as the junior teams which I've just outlined. No moaning about them sponging their way into the Scottish Cup every year - even if they play at the edge of a swing park.

Des Mckeown - Boaby of the Year 2008.

Aye very good

McKeown is a frigging ill informed twat, and a predictable one at that. Remind me how many Highland League sides applied to join? oh yes, one.

No club in their right mind would want to join the SFL3 in it's current format, it's an expensive backet case as Elgin City know and probably Annan will soon find out.

Why is creameryparkfan allowed back on here?

Des McKeown is an ill informed fud of the highest order.

Joe is not the only one in the junior world who thinks that for your information mate.

Your right of course. Thats why he has played the game and gets paid to write a column every week in a national newspaper.
Tell us what you do again and how you can change things

Has McKeown ever played junior football ? or is he now just an expert on it ?

Becuase he has played does that mean he knows what he talks about. Big Gomez wasn't born in Germany, cant run, and cant score for them. I fit those criteria ,will they ask me to play for them at the next Euro's?

Creamery you are more of a fud that Des. HTG i reckon Creamery/Joe and Des should be joint Boaby of the year 2008, any disagrement? I'm surprise that the knuckle draggers with willie's backing didn't try and join up.

As Davey roy has stated the costs of joining the SFL are too high for what it is worth. It is definatly better being a big fish in a small pond in this instance and i believe that all Rose supporters would agree.

If the halfwits at the SFA could get a decent pyramid structure inplace i think that most junior clubs would sign up. until then im not surprised they are not applying.

Maybe not but in the junior world, these people are in a huge minority - you included friend.

It's all very well banging on about lack of ambition etc etc but you've not responded to any points about the electoral system that leads to membership of the SFL. Are you seriously telling me that you are content with the current approach and that you'd be happy to watch Bathgate wasting money on this nonsense? You are, as you keep reminding us, the junior cup holders and as such you should be among the first to apply. You have the financial backing to make a fist of it although your stadium might need a bit of work. The reason Linlithgow keep getting thrown into this discussion is because their committee have worked hard to ensure that Prestonfield is tidy and is one of the best in junior football. They rarely get any credit for the fact that they have 300 seats, top class changing rooms, SFL standard lights and a bowling green of a pitch. All people focus on is their "lack of ambition". As such, when or if the structure of Scottish football allows teams to move up or down based on points accumulated you may see a different approach.

Sponsors - Joe isn't even close to Des McKeown in the boaby stakes even though he's nearly always wrong about everything related to junior football. I suspect that is deliberate though.

If Mr.Hill had wanted to get into senior football he would have taken the offer from Motherwell FC to put his money in but he wants to remain junior obviously.Participating in the scottish cup is no more than novelty value but all it does is upset the fixture list in the junior game. Look at Linlithgow last year. Maybe they made some cash but it may have cost them the league.

Participating in the Scottish Cup didn't cost us anything last season - we had a great time. There were lots of other reasons for a shite finish to the season but they are not relevant here. The point is that Mr Hill would also probably watch Bathgate progress through a merit-based system if the opportunity were there. But he persumably can't be arsed trying to work through the mindset of the voting clubs in this farce - each of whom brought their own agenda to the table. McKeown would be much better focusing on that nonsense for a process than trying to slay junior clubs for having no ambition when it's clear that there are many who do try to offer something to their communities.

Joe

I am going to make a rash assumption that you have a job.

Would you apply for another job that involved 2 or 3 times the amount of travelling for less money ? Didn't think so but you are suggesting the top junior clubs do something similar.

As it stands the SFL is not an attractive proposition to junior clubs.

I think I made my feelings on him quite clear.

but it doesn't take away the hypocritical situation the junior clubs have just now, it suits them to play in the Scottish Cup, but no thanks league - it costs too much.

What would happen if a pyramid situation was put in place? Clubs would still knock back promotion to the SFL as it doesn't suit their balance sheet. Junior clubs shout for progress with a pyramid system, but that system would put a dent in their finances so it wouldn't suit them. All hot air, methinks.

Good job Clyde don't have a stadium to look after

You are rather missing the point here. There are a raft of non-league senior clubs in existence. They "qualify" for the Scottish Cup every year now simply by virtue of being "senior". Hardly any of these clubs are in a fit state to progress into the Scottish league. Of those who made a bid, 2 or 3 were desperate to move out of a system which they perceive is holding them back (that's my take on clubs like Spartans and Cove anyway!).

The juniors were invited into the Scottish Cup - they did not hammer at the SFA's door to demand this. Even then, they had to prove themselves by winning a major chunk of silverware so only 4 sides can actually qualify.

I have no wish to denigrate the efforts of the hard-working guys at Newton Stewart but when we played them last year there was a gulf in class on the pitch and off. But their status dictates that they are automatic entrants into the Scottish Cup now. If you asked them about their SFL 3 league ambitions they'd probably tell you they are on the back-burner for the moment. Yet the 4 junior teams cop a hell of a lot of flak for being asked to participate in a senior competition.

Utter nonsense - every system that could help progress football in this country is being ignored because of the level of self-interest involved ... senior and junior.

annan were given entry to the league due to showing sfl officials there books from the last ten years.. every minor detail including every penny a player gets to what the gates take in and social club..

could any junior team do this??

or are the big signing on fees back handers??

i feel thats why the juniors bottled applying.. nothing to do with ability tho. annan are gash

Those days, if they ever existed, are gone now. PAYE is the order of the day.

It suits THEM to play in the Scottish cup ?

I take it by that you mean the paltry 4 places the junior sides get in the first round ?
Are they denying some fuckin uni team getting a place in the first round ?

What about the first, second and third division sides who are happy to play in the scottish cup, but could they have a SPL stadium in place ? Of course they can't.
If East Fife rose up the leagues, would they have the finance in place for new stands ?
That doesn't mean they are unambitious, same as the junior sides, they don't have the finance.

I think if you asked most people, the inclusion of the junior sides enhanced the early rounds of the scottish cup last year.

In answer to your question, yes there are junior teams who could easily match Annan's ability to account for their income and expenditure - the Rose for a start. Do SFL clubs not indulge in inducements to attract players? Are you confident that the standards set for Annan are a mirror of what existing clubs are forced to satisfy in terms of scrutiny from the SFL beaks? Personally I have my doubts. In any walk of life, where there is a dollar to be made there is a corrupt b'astard who is happy to take it - the SFL won't be any different. I've no problem with Annan going up to the SFL - good luck to them. But as you rightly said, they were "given" a place in the league on the basis of their off-field set up and not necessarily their capability - although they are off to a great start.

Was it just my cynical mind, however were Annan not the lowest ranked team (on last years league placings) of the 5 who applied for membership ?... Could it be that the self preservation train rolled into the station and the likes of Elgin and the Shire were more content to bring in a team who they feel they can beat and finish above rather than the likes of Spartans / Cove, who have better facilities and could potentially have finished higher than them ?...

Why should the success of the application come down to the whim of teams with a (conflict of) interest in the outcome ??....

For a country our size, 4 leagues of 10 / 12 is very hard to maintain and i would have thought that the SFL3 would have been better dissolved with the teams going back into a regional set up.

As regards the comments about gounds / facilities, it does seem strange to promote yourself as "Senior" when the ground facilities are nowhere adequate and would not be admitted into the "Junior" ranks.. rope boundaries, public parks hardly glamourises the non-league senior teams. Perhaps some of their freebie money from entry into the Cup should be used to reinvest into their clubs ?.. and not have a pop at Junior teams who do not have access to this on a yearly basis. Remember until last year Junior teams had to finance themselves through the hard work or their committees (or bank rolled by wealthy individuals). Even then Pollok or the Rose (not to forget Culter) would not have made the bucket loads of gold that some are assuming...

As for McKeown and Jo Creamery Thistle Fanny, leave them to return to their insular lives, rocking back and forth, storking their cat while muttering and slavering !....

Hail the Gallant !

No.

Annan were elected owing to the fact they had a suitable ground in place, youth policy and community activities.

Spartans don't have a ground and were never in the running.
Cove came second and their ground is tiny.

it was always going to be Annan.

Spartans don't have a ground ???. They will by their season starting ... and they apparently do more in their local community !?..

Don't think your points stack up there drs ..

...well Spartans came bottom of the 5 teams for meeting the SFL criteria and one of the main reasons was that they didn't have a ground and would have to play at Meadowbank for the first half of the season.

Did Spartans ersehole manager not have a go at some of the other clubs in the run up to the vote? Could that not be the reason that they didn't get in. I wouldn't vote for someone who was having a go at me.

You must be joking. Most people will struggle to tell you what junior teams played in it apart from people who follow our games.
It is a PR exercise by the Sfa allowing junior teams a shot in the ir cup. People on here want to get real and put all their effort into maintaining junior football at league and cup level.

Shouldn't the SFL be asking why the Juniors aren't interested in the current set-up and then maybe change things around?

I still think the whole Highland/East of Scotland/Juniors split is ridiculous. It's not as if it's like rugby league rules v rugby union rules. A referee can do Seniors games one week and Juniors games the next. Merge the lot of the leagues and have regional leagues leading up to the Scottish League, rather like the English scene.

yous are missing the point why did no junior team apply?? simple... paye... he haw not proffesional enough of the park to cope with the step up into the big leagues... bottled it

I think I've understood just about enough of the above to know that it's mainly shite.

would you be from newton stewart by any chance,how the f**k teams from the south leagues get into the scottish is beyond me.one things for sure teams like newton stewart who play on what can only be described as public playing fields have an even lesser chance of progression up through the leagues as the top junior sides.

Whether he's from Newton Stewart or not makes no odds. Newton Stewart as a club impressed me when we went down there. It was pretty clear that they were starting from scratch (almost) and they made a tremendous effort to host Linlithgow. They never started any of this stuff and they don't really deserve to be slated for it either.

The non-league senior teams used to have to play through the Qualifying Cup before they could join the Scottish Cup proper so their entry was merit based to an extent. Now they are all invited to participate whether they have greater aspirations or not. Not that Des bothered his scrotum about that change in process which allowed a barrow-load of clubs with no more ambition than the vast majority of junior clubs to play in the Scottish Cup every year. Juniors still have to earn the right and are restricted in number.

The problem does not lie with the juniors as Des seems to think. The problem lies with the SFL and SFA who need to develop a better process than offering a place every blue moon when a team goes tits up.

atlast a little bit of sense above.. not from newton stewart.. not far from there though

Anothe good column from Des again today. This guy talks a lot of sense.

Click to view attachment AGAIN

Mate, as a committee member of a Junior club I find that utterly offensive. The level of professionalism at my club far outweighs what goes on in your own league. I speak from experience having attended games at South grounds in the past year or so.

I much preferred Tom Johnston's retort to McKeown's latest bout of verbal shits in Scott Campbell's Juniors column on the previous page. Much of what he said today echoes my comments earlier in the week and I'm delighted to see the head of the SJFA coming out all guns blazing in the face of an ill-informed and unprovoked attack on our grade by someone 'qualified' only by the fact he once played the game... reason enough surely to not give McKeown a voice!

Agreed i was impressed that Tom Johnston came out and backed the clubs for not wanting to join the seniors. In a league where the majority of the teams aim not to finnish last rather than trying to win it.

I think the important thing to take from what he said was the general tone of it - Junior clubs haven't apllied for the Gretna place because the lack ambition, it's because they cannot afford to do so. He said 24 clubs stated they might at some stage be interested in the SFL according to the recent survey. That's 15% of the 2007-08 membership. Only 14% of the non-league Senior FULL MEMBERS actually applied for the vacancy... these are clubs that ALL received a £10,000 windfall as part of an SFA Christmas bonus. As Tom says, some of these Full Members wouldn't get in the SJFA because of their grounds.