They say it cannot be done but there's only one way to prove it. Rather than cause havoc in the real world, I'm going to run a full scale West Region FAKE FIXTURE LIST on the http://nonleaguescotland website.

The premise is simple:

A fixture diary details every likely date between game 1 (6th August) and the close of season in June.

Every league game has been given a date. Cup dates are also given, with the aim of playing a full round on the same day as the other ties. Evening Times and Ayrshire council cups excepted.

Fake league fixtures are up just now. The address is
http://nonleaguescotland.co.uk/fixturelist/fixtureintro.htm

The purpose of this is to show that a fixture list CAN work. Of course it may end up showing it cannot, but that's the experiment. Whenever it has been put forward to an AGM, "it's been tried and it cannot work" is apparently the response. By June '09 there will be hard evidence, built over a season and using real world weather etc, to either agree or disagree with that.

It's a flexible fixture list. Games will be postponed for Junior Cup replays and for inclement weather. That's what the blank dates in April and May are for.

Because cup runs are pretty important to deciding a team's fate when it comes to fixture congestion, I'm looking for two volunteers to form a 'cup tie panel' to help decide outcomes.

Jamie

Great stuff Jamie, I'll be following the progress throughout the season. Your website is excellent by the way!

Superb Jamie.Someone has posted a link of it on our BankiesBanter site.I'm sure you will have a lot of Bankies fans glad someone could do this as the SJFA say a fixture list doesnt work.

A shadow fixture list. Improving notice, from a few days or weeks, to months. A semblance of a home-away league fixture schedule. Outsiders invited to apply new ideas. It'll just never work.

Good luck with your own real world venture - mine is at this stage just fantasy football!

Excellent Jamie, it will be great to self this works as it is similar to The proposal put forward at this seasons AGM by my club. Hope it works!

What people say when stating that it won't work is that the present system allows for as many clubs as possible to play on a week by week basis. Or that there is no point of a fixture list when fixtures have to be cancelled.

Well in response to that I'd say that any fixture list in place in Junior football has to be flexible. Highland League and now East of Scotland League do similar things by issuing up to a point and filling in blanks thereafter.

And fixtures being cancelled is not unique to the Juniors. In Senior football, European matches force games to be moves, while Scottish Cup replays and bad weather also affect the card.

I reckon the fixture list will work, but we'll have to see I suppose. A lot depends on how bad the weather is.

I am confident that it will work. It will not be perfect but nothing is? It would certainly aid advance notice of fixtures. There is nothing the Juniors can do about cancellations as there is no floodlights unlike senior clubs. You are correct with your fill in weeks too. I hope It works and can be proposed in the future.
Junior football must change to keep up with the times or face tough times ahead. who wants to sponsor a match when you cant tell them when it will be played.

You will get the usual reaction of some people i.e. "oh great a fixture list, so we'll know who we're playing every week, and less postponements too, and no back-logs, and bigger crowds" - and at the opposite end of the scale, you will get "it will never work, we can't issue fixtures more than a few weeks ahead, we've never done so before, the weather will wreck it". Both are extremities.

When the Shadow Fixture List for the East Seniors was made by Mr McLean last season, weather factors were simulated by postponing all games in the Shadow List, involving a team which had a home game postponed in real life. I.e. it was postponed in the Shadow List whether they were at home or away. This simulated roughly the same number of postponements as occurred in real life.

However, the actual system being used by the East Seniors this season is not the one proposed - it was impossible to play the Image Printers Cup after Christmas, and the League Cup was moved back instead. So there is always a possibility that any system proposed will not be fully adopted.

The trick is to ally long-term benefits with short-term. In the short-term, the new system for the East Seniors tries to provide a month's notice for every game (Scottish Cup replays excepted), and hopefully not too many cup games postponed because not too many scheduled December to February. This is combined with saying that, over the whole season, 1 or 2 or 3 weekends out of 4 or 5 in any given month, can be set aside for league games. To go the stage further, and reach a level which the SPL or SFL have (and the HFL tries to have), you need more lights - and less cups.

What the East Seniors are trying is an experiment - but a calculated one, which will not fall to bits, but will either make a small difference, or a big one. And that could work in Junior football as well.

Agree 100% I really hope this works out and can be used as a way forward. It will help no end with match sponsors amongst other things as I am sure most clubs would agree.

But will you be able to avoid the traditional junior football absurdity of 4 games a week for the last fortnight of the season?

That's an impossibility without using floodlights.

whit aboot the east

Also, you'll suffer the usual misunderstandings of people. For example, the Spartans website says:

Spartans will begin the new season with a Premier Division match at home to Coldstream on 9 August and will finish the league campaign away to Lothian Thistle on 11 April, it has been announced.

While in reality, unless Lothian and Spartans never end up with a mutually free weekend (because of getting knocked-out of cups), it is quite possible that Lothian game may end up being moved...

it's maybe been said before but what about summer football, it's went ok in ireland?

There are arguments against summer football (not necessarily mine but ones I've heard nonetheless).

1. Players on holiday for key games
2. Committee on holiday for games would mean some clubs really struggling to put the match on
3. A bone dry pitch is almost unplayable and dangerous as a frozen one - most Junior pitches are very badly maintained so we can't really compare with what we see on TV in the close season
4. The bowling season would clash even more than it does already - this affects committee and supporters rather than players!
5. Unpredictable climate - what would the ideal summer football season be?
6. If the season ended in November and there was a backlog of games to be fitted in, how would that work?
7. The current competitive season runs from early August to early June (10 months) for the most successful clubs, and that includes probably, for the most successful clubs, maybe 10 midweek dates. Going back to point 6, with a pre-season to accommodate as well (4 weeks on top of the 10 months), we'd still have to play in either December or January!

Just a few to get started!

On the last point, I looked at games played in the West Region the past 5 years and it was pretty clear that the least amount of football was played in December and January.

From a supporter of Summer Football
1. Too bad. The current situation isnt great for players either. For one thing check out their wedding anniversaries - mostly late May/ early June. Ever wondered why? They would just have to adjust. Lots of bargains to be had for hols in Spain in November and January you know. And its not like holidays are as inflexible as they once were - Glasgow used to empty during the Glasgow Fair fortnight, once upon a time. Not any more.
2. See above
3. Not so sure about that - you wont slip on a bone dry pitch for one thing (and might they be watered?). Also, if the global warming boys are right, its not the frozen pitch, but the one that's either under a foot of water or covered in mud, leading to postponements (one of the reasons given for no fixture list - also see 6). More likely in the winter.
4. Come on, the bowling is on from before the current season ends and when the season starts up - not counting pre-season work. If you include pre-season, we had our last game about the end of May and have a friendly this Saturday - so about 6/7 weeks off. Then there's signing players, renegotiating contracts, pre-seasons training all during that 6/7 weeks. Bit like the Windmill Theatre - "we never close"
5. Not as bad as during the winter. I must admit the enjoyment from football kind of passes me by when I am standing watching a match with the rain being driven into my face by a high wind in a temperature high of about 4 degrees C. Cant be great for the players either
6. Fewer games would be postponed in my opinion - pitches wouldnt get the **** kicked out them with being played on when, for instance, its too wet.
7. That's repackaging my point 4 - in a lot of ways the season (not necessarily "playing") is about 12 months just now as it is. But, if fewer games were postponed then the season should finish on time.
My last point would be that if the senior game carries on at its traditional time, there might be fans of senior clubs who would come along to Junior games, just because there wasnt anything else. I think it was about the middle of May that there was a thread on one of the SFL forums here, titled "I'm bored already".

So there are arguments for and against, but there are people who will defend each view given I'm sure.

Regards bowling - we have supporters and committee that miss games if there's a clash. It's not a major issue at Lok because we have a big committee but I'm sure at smaller clubs with smaller committees there could be a greater impact.

Fixture congestion isn't caused necessarily by postponements, more likely by successful clubs being involved in cup runs. If the cups are going to finish in the last 3rd of the season, that is going to be August to November. Only 4 or 5 weeks in that time can midweek games be played.

bargains for holidays to spain in November/January ??

Aye and my work that gives me a set 2 weeks holiday every year will just let me
go

and of couse I would want to go then when its about 10 degrees and everything is shut ??

not really thought that one through have you ?

Many players do have choices about when they take their hols. Summer football works in many continental countries at most levels - they're not as daft as us as to play in the worst of the winter. If it can work there, why not here?
And yes, it is cheaper to go Spain (and a lot of other resorts at that time). The tourist boards out there are trying to encourage tourism all year round.

True - neither is perfect.
Not sure what you mean about midweek games in the last third of the season - clocks dont go back till end October for one thing. I would have thought you could fit in midweek quite comfortably - if necessary - till end September.

Midweek kick-offs in the East and South seniors, on the second midweek in August, are 6:45pm.
For league matches. So even starting at 6:15pm (which is the earliest I've ever know a junior or senior game start at), you'd be lucky if you could play a league tie past the end of August - and you'd be lucky if you could play a cup tie requiring extra-time / penalties past the start of August.

I wouldn't worry about extra time in junior cups. The all go straight to penalties appart from the BIG one. I still can't understand why the teams that have flood lights aren't allowed to use them in some of the competitions. Surley if a club has them they should be utilised.

Per Hibee's post, even in mid August you're already kicking off before 7pm and by the end of September for a game to finish you'd have to be kicking off closer to 6pm and so on.

Without lights, midweek games are impractical after August until April.