the problem would be how to structure the promotion into the league.Is there a place for a league along the likes of the conference in England?,

This has been covered to death, until there is a viable tier below the current SFL Leagues the answer has to be no.
Are there enough teams interested in stepping up? At the moment probably not. Sad as it is for the unsuccessful candidates in yesterdays election vote, there was only 5 teams in it.
A lot of work would have to be done organising such a structure both from a financial point and of course to ascertain if enough teams with the infrastructure either in place or in planning want to join. Its all right saying we should have a pyramid system but if clubs don't want to join what can you do?

Very true - we should probably have this pinned as a topic, it keeps on coming round (and we get the same answers every time).

If the likes of Pollock, Linlithgow etc don't want to apply to join the League (in the current cirucmstances), then what can we do? Fair enough, they have their reasons, but it's not like there's dozens waiting to replace the bottom club...

But who is going to invest the necessary money to get ready for league entry before a system of promotion is put in place? Why not make a place available and if the qualifying candidate (maybe from an EoS and Highland league play off) isn't interested or doesn't meet specified criteria, the bottom club stays in the league. It's hugely ironic to hear the arguments against automatic relegation of the same SFL clubs that complain about the self preservation of the SPL (which relegates one out of twelve of its members each year).

There could be a sort of nationwide conference below the 3rd that contains teams with SFL ambitions.
Edinburgh City, Preston, Spartans, Cove all clearly want in. So do others like Gala, probably other Highland league teams.
Not sure how viable this would be though, clearly Cove against Gala would be more expensive for the clubs to fulfill than the current regionalised Highland league etc.
Relegation could happen from this conference only if other teams want in for a chance to make the SFL so nobody is forced to join up.

Another nationwide division isn't really a starter, I don't think. Regionalisation would have to begin at this point (some would argue that it should start at Div2/3 - that ain't going to happen any time soon)

Another possibility would be a playoff similar to those between SFL leagues at present.
The playoff could contain bottom of Div 3, winner of highland league, winner of EOS league, winner of SOS league, Maybe junior league winners.

Again only teams interested in joining SFL could take part, but they must have won their league to qualify, no passing it to 2nd place or whatever. If nobody wants to enter SFL team survives by default.

The only problem I can see with this is that flexibility would be needed to allow say East Stirling to drop out and be replaced by Cove. That would inbalance numbers in the regionalised leagues but surely is a fairly workable solution.

A difficult question for any potential club aspiring to somehow join the SFL - at the moment you either get wealthy financial backers (ideally!) or have spending plans conditional on you successfully getting in. The best and fairest solution would (IMO) be a pyramid of teams which would be connected all the way down to amateur level. However, as has been discussed on here many times is there any will among the SFL to make it happen any time soon? The answer at the moment seems to be no.


While on the surface this may appear to be a fair comparison its not really comparing like with like. The 1st division/ SPL exchanges are between established teams where a system always existed for some kind of promotion/ relegation - the controversy there was mostly about the ground criteria for the SPL which restricted who came up (the 10000 seater stadium rule which has now been cut to 6000 I believe). Any possible club exchanges between the SFL and the myriad of clubs and different organisations below it (East of Scotland, South of Scotland, Highland league and the various junior leagues) are in much less familiar territory and there has been no established proceedure for promotion/ relegation since the dawn of time. To correct that it would need major surgery to the whole game below SPL level all the way down (perhaps a pyramid would do it best) through every level of football. Should it happen? I think yes. Will it happen? At the moment it seems unlikely, but I would like to think that one day it will.

Right you lot get back to your own boards, the excitement is over Annan are the new club. Alll these threads are taking over the board and stopping the usual Dumbarton spam.

What comes first, the chicken or the egg? Few non-leaguers will invest in facilities, or build their aspirations, when the only route into the SFL is irregular ballot - and when Third Division football is regarded by many as poor-quality compared to top-level local football. The SFL don't want to commit to a pyramid until enough clubs have viable facilities, and until a system has been put in place before promotion into Third Division is introduced. Someone has to make the first move...

Provided the team that wins the 1s division fits in with their clique, that is.......

And provided they don't suspend relegation so that the clique team can stay up....
It has happened at least once.

And where would East Stirling or Albion Rovers or Dumbarton or Forfar etc. etc play if they dropped out?
The Highland League isn't a reasonable option for most SFL clubs and nor are the EoS and the SoS.

Correct which is where the St Mirren fans argument falls down, he says that we are like the SPL and self preservation is the order of the day but in reality most League teams would not be against promotion relegation to the league if there were somewhere viable below.
For example it hardly makes sense if Stranraer were to be in that position if they had to play in the SOS league when our reserve team already play in it, likewise central belt teams hardly fit in any of the current boxes.
My fear for such proposals would be you would just kill off a few teams and replace them with similar clubs who had a league that was financially and geographically handy for them.

I love your picter of Saul Hudson. Respect.

I think the SFL should have a relegation system from the 3rd in place.

Teams in the Stagecoach Premier League, in my honest opinion, could easily compete in the Third Tier of Scottish Football.

Pollok, Glenafton, Arthulie, Cumnock etc. are all well capable of giving even a second division side a good game.

It would certainly spice up the bottom half of our division. Futile last game of the season games would have an edge and this would no doubt boost league attendances.

...but how come non-league clubs are allowed to carry on with such facilities, when League clubs are at the mercy of Health and Safety legislation - how come you can get hundreds at a non league game without worrying about the petty rules that plague League teams.

For example, the side of Cliftonhill that was closed for *years* would be allowed for crowds of that size in non league grounds. Why does one rule apply to League clubs, and not to the others?

i think the SFL should relegate all 10 clubs in the 3rd division

Just because we don't all have railway stations named after us...

You could apply the same to other sports. Rugby doesn't get great crowds at league level but come Melrose Sevens they are allowed thousands into a tiny ground with only grass banks and a small stand, yet if we get a decent cup tie we are only allowed 4,000 in when clearly you could safely get another 2,000 in and 25 years ago it was another 8,000.

It does my head in. We were allowed 4,000 for the Falkirk game, but the Police (etc) costs were prohibative, so we only opened up for a couple of thousand.

I fully accept that Shielfield could do with more than just a lick of paint, but surely the H&S rules should apply to all grounds that have a crowd of the same size?

In terms of the main question, this has been discussed many, many times in recent months. Solutions put forward include:

1. A national non-league 'conference' division. The Highland League membership were on the whole uninterested in the SFL so I cannot fathom why a non-league version would be more appealing. There'd be even less money available to cover costs.

2. Two regional feeders based upon the three current Senior leagues. Highland League and Lowland League - Spartans' idea. It's highly flawed though - of the current SFL membership, only Elgin, Ross County and Peterhead are within the Highland area, while from the Lowlands, you have Berwick, Annan, QOS and Stranraer. Stirling Uni have just joined the East of Scotland League so I suppose its catchment area has widened slightly to take in the Falkirk area clubs. The three Senior non-leagues cover 1.5 million people and prior to Stirling Uni coming in the areas covered were:



If a club from greater Glasgow was to be relegated, where would they go and play?

Also, is a Lowland League practical for its current membership? Threave Rovers played in the East of Scotland League for 5 years but found costs prohibitive. Would any South sides be interested in the travel?

3. The creation of a Senior West of Scotland League by inviting Junior members to 'hop the fence'.

4. Integration of Junior and Senior football to create the following football map largely based upon the three existing Junior regions.



The current Junior coverage (4.5 million people) is:



The divisional set-up would be:



In my opinion, a fully fledged pyramid is an impossibility without fixing the void in the West. There is no Senior non-league for huge areas of the country, areas that include some of the most populated.

Ground standards are pretty low everywhere, but a number of East and South senior sides have facilities unacceptable even to the SJFA. These teams should not be at the level below the SFL.

Feel free to browse http://nonleaguescotland.co.uk

Respect mate! Have you got a PhD for this? bring it on, as they say these days....

First of all i'd like to propose something.

"Could the diddys at the SFL please appoint 'cmontheloknow' as Chairman as his ideas are clearly well thought through, and for once are displayed in an amazinglly articulate manner."

My ideas of the Pyramid System in Scottish Football from Top Level to Bottom Level differ from some of the views previously aired in this thread.

The SPL, 1st Division, 2nd Division and 3rd Division Should Remain in Existence.

Below these Senior Divisions, possibly another Three Leagues should be set-up.

The First League should consist of sides who have proved themselves in the Junior, Highland and Ameature game.

The First League should offer promotion to the Third Division.

This League should consist of teams who are proven in the Junior, Highland And Ameature Game Respectively, For Example;

• Pollok
• Irvine Meadow
• Arthulie
• Glenafton
• Cumnock
• Eddlewood
• Buckie Thistle
• Keith
• Even Ardeer, Girvan, Troon Etc.

The Second League should consist of teams who are less proven. Lower Level Junior Sides, Highland League Teams and Ameature Outfits.
For Example;

• Cambuslang Rangers
• Camelon
• East Kilbride Thistle
• Carnoustie
• Fort William
• Rothes
• Dalbeattie Star
• Ormiston
• Coldstream

The Third League should consist of Some East of Scotland Sides, Along With Some More Junior Sides and a Mix of Ameature & Highland League Sides who are less than proven in their respective games, For Example;

• Hulford
• Fort William
• Forfar W.E
• Lossiemouth

Teams of that pedigree.




I Must Stress That The Set-Up Of Such Leagues Should Be Based On Teams Past Success, Attendance Records, And Basically Who Is Worthy Of A Place In Such Set-Up's.

It's an awkward business, but in my honest opinion every semi-proffesional side in Scotland should be given the chance to compete in Senior Football.

Whether such sides actually want a chance in the Senior Game is a different matter. We are always reminded of the fact that some Junior sides would find it more profitable to remain in their league, sadly! This really should not be the case and it is clearly a massive problem in our nations Football structure.

If you are going to have root and branch change, I think you have to take into account geography. What you are suggesting is like trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole. You have to have clubs forced to meet realistic criteria for playing at each level - abolish senior / junior / amateur / professional distinctions and have clubs playing in leagues, solely on merit by promotion and relegation. Only then can you have a pyramid system. If people really want it, then they should get it. At the moment, you'd have to say that a lot of people just don't want it. I think the fact that we have a country in which the bulk of the population lives in a small area makes a true pyramid structure much more difficult than in England. Scotland has an area two-thirds that of England with about a tenth of the population.

Is the current system stifling the game? No.
Is the game really thriving so much better in England? No.
There's much to be said for the saying: "if it ain't bust, don't try to fix it."
That doesn't mean changes shouldn't be made but even blazers with vested interests can usually tell when things are headed down the Swanee and changes need to be made. People don't want old clubs to die but I think that if things had continued the way they were at East Stirlingshire, when frankly they were beginning to look like they couldn't field a side who were able to offer a competitive match with the other teams in the division, then they would have been forced to leave. As we have seen, they did improve and i.m.o. deserve to remain.
I think that there should always be room for rearrangement of the leagues - this is what happened to allow the Highland teams into the SFL. I don't see any reason, why when facilities are up to scratch, well-managed clubs shouldn't be able to play SFL football.
I guess what I'm saying in summary is we don't necessarily need a pyramid system or automatic relegation from the third
to improve the game in Scotland.

The huge issue again though is the cost of playing football nationally. It can work fine at Amateur level as players will pay their way but with semi-pro clubs, bus bills are into the hundreds and weekly wages will be four figures also.

I really cannot think of a single reason to have a national division beneath the SFL. 3 regions (North, East and West) is all that is viable.

If only Gordon Smith and the SFL / SFA bigwigs read P'n'B....

I know the layout which I suggested is totally unrealistic.

But if we could implement something similar we certainly wouldn't go far wrong.

Just to give my opinion on the whole distance/travel 'issue'. One of the things that I love about Football is the far-flung journeys to 'exotic' locations. I really don't see the big problem. If clubs arrange their travel sensibly then any problems would be totally avoided.

A Winter Roamance
Picture the scene: a glorious winter's morning, only it's 6 am in Brora so it would be pitch dark for another three hours. The eagerly anticipated league match with Threave Rovers looks likely to go ahead.
2.30 pm: No it's not. Back to Brora then.
The end.

That is the harsh reality that we've had to put up with in the Third & Even Second Division.

Take least season for instance. The Rovers bus travelled all the way up to Elgin and were told that the game would go ahead during the journey. When the bus arrived the game was still going ahead. 30 minutes prior to kick-off a referee calls of the game due to some minor frost which other referees clearly would deem playable.

It's all about the levels these clubs operate at. Sponsorship in the non-league game is hard to come by, well for decent money anyway. Gates are also a lot smaller. It cost Lok £500 to get to Ellon for a Junior Cup tie. We got £200 from our share of the gate. And that's before wages are taken into consideration.

I'll say it again, the ONLY system that will work for non-league clubs is a regionalised set-up. Let's just look at the maths. 12 team league based on top 4 West region, top 2 from both East set ups and top 4 from Highland.

Lochee United
Whitburn
Whitehill Welfare
Edinburgh University
Cove Rangers
Keith
Deveronvale
Buckie Thistle
Pollok
Irvine Meadow
Petershill
Auchinleck Talbot

At least 4 of those clubs have gates well below 100, maybe even 5. If the majority of Highland sides state that SFL football is financially beyond them (taking into account bigger gate revenue and better sponsorship) what chance would the Costcutters Conference sides have of survival? Gates would be dire and costs would escalate.

Cheers for the info Jamie - it's certainly not as simple as some people would like to beleive. Whilst it's easy to suggest a pyramid, the practicalities aren't straightforward, especially (as you say) since plenty non league teams don't want to be part of the SFL (and if they don't want into the Third Division, then they certainly aren't going to want to join a Fourth Division/ Fifth Tier).

We'd be better having a pinned thread for this, as the same arguments keep coming round...

I'd say the two things (SFL or 4th & 5th tier) are not the same issue. A lot of teams just know their level.

Agreed.

And, after the financial mess from when Berwick aimed for the First Division (paying silly money) a few years ago, I'd rather we knew our level too - I wish Gretna had stuck to their level too.

I've just been reading about football in the Irish Republic. What they've done is merge all the different administrations into one. Its all ran by the FAI now, instead of being run by the league itself. Clubs had to reapply for their place in the league and at the bottom end, they've introduced relegation from the league itself. Its all aimed at improving the standard and profile of the league.

It will be very interesting to see what effect this has on football in Ireland. It would be great if Scotland could undergo a groundbreaking change like this, but I think we all know the SPL, SFA, SJFA, etc etc clubs are unlikely to all agree. Too many clubs are interested in their own present rather than Scottish football's future.

I think it's a small number of clubs who are (directly or indirectly) having an influence - top Juniors are (rightly) not too interested - some non-league Seniors are interested - bottom SFL clubs are (rightly) very nervous.

The SPL, top SFL and shite non-leaguers won't be too bothered either way as they are unlikely to be affected

I got this quote about the FAI League of Ireland introducing a national conference from Wikipedia (and as such it is likely false ) Obviously a national conference is inappropriate for Scotland, but the reasons for introducing a pyramid are the same as for the ROI.

The Irish have adopted a very interesting set-up. Their existing leagues are Premier of 12, and First of 10; and below this was, traditionally, a whole myraid of small-ish local amateur leagues.

What they have done is form an 'A' Championship, consisting of 13 reserve teams / 3 first-teams who used to play in the amateur leagues. It has 2 groups, 8 teams per group, each covering half the country. First teams finishing top 4 in their group, will play-off to meet bottom First Division club in a play-off. Now, I'm not suggesting this you be feasible or desirable in Scotland - but the Irish have achieved it, from nothing, with a reform of their whole system too, in space of 4 years.

The SPL will never comply with any changes, so what the SFL should do is ask every non-league, junior and amateur team if they would be interested in forming a pyramid, and then form a proposal to their members based on these numbers.

They should also ask the current members how they would feel about playing in regional leagues, I might be worng, but I get the feeling that Elgin and Annan would not miss playing each other, midweek in January.

Using all that info they could restructure the leagues to perhaps have one national SFL league (provided the lower SFL members are happy to go regional), and then a regional teir (maybe two) that covers most of the teams who expressed an interest. A ballot (yawn) would then be held.

... legitimate points, bar usual myth that SFL would ever force Elgin v Annan midweek in January.

They forced Queen of the South v Dundee (i.e. the longest trip in the 1st Division last season) on Boxing Day last year, so why not?

My own personal opinion is that the 3rd Division has to be part of a regionlised pyramid before you get a significant amount of Junior clubs interested.

eg. the 3rd Division is divided into North and South divisions, with the existing clubs supplemented by those Junior/Senior non-league clubs who want to compete. Below that you have further regionalisation.

How do the fans of Berwick, Albion Rovers, Montrose, Dumbarton etc feel about such an idea?

Are you happy with a national 3rd Division, or would you accept a regionalised 3rd Division if it meant a proper pyramid system being establised?

I would prefer either:

(1) join 2nd and 3rd Divisions together, as 1 big division of 18. With larger clubs, some of them full-time, larger crowds, and the chance of 1 promotion and your in the 'big leagues', I think this would make the bottom nationwide level a lot more attractive, while retaining 40 nationwide clubs.

(2) simply abolish the Third Division, with the 10 clubs dropping into the top levels of the new 3-region pyramid. This might help the top-level regional leagues gain credibility and bigger crowds.

I don't like regionalising into 2 regions, because it doesn't make geographical or logistical sense compared to what should come below. Plus I think Scotland should have more than just 20 or 22 clubs playing nationwide football. That is why 40 (in 3 divisions) or 32 (in 3 divisions) is best IMO.

No.

Elgin v Stranraer was a midweek game last season too!

... not in December, January or February though - unless a public holiday or a Scottish Cup replay.

Welcome to senior football. The clubs are part of a national league just have to be prepared to make these journeys. Almost without exception, they have no problems because I have never heard of a senior club struggling to raise a team because of the mileage involved.

It's also worth remembering that the no-midweek-games-until-March rule is a comparatively recent introduction. I've done my fair share of travelling in January and February. And those who remember the pre-floodlight days will confirm that 1pm kick-offs on a Wednesday afternoon for a cup replay were all part and parcel of the season. It's the senior game....you just have to get on with it.

To be honest I have no consideration for players in such circumstances. They're well paid for playing part-time football. My view is that of the supporter who wants to be at every game and doesn't get a very healthy wage and expenses to do so.

But if you choose to support a team in a national league then of course it's going to cost quite a bit of money to get to away games. You know that right from the start.

Which is one of the reasons that junior fans would be wary of their side joining a nationwide set-up. Most followers of junior outfits have a nearby senior alternative but have deliberately chosen to follow football on a local basis.