Ok I know alot of the Junior clubs wouldnt want to move to the SFL for various reasons....but if there had to be a couple clubs say to join the 3rd division....who would be best suited?
Suppose you have to look at stadium, facilities, support, potential support, location etc
Full Version: Which Junior Side Would Be Best Suited For Sfl?
QUOTE (Zahana-Oni @ Jun 15 2008, 09:11) 
Ok I know alot of the Junior clubs wouldnt want to move to the SFL for various reasons....but if there had to be a couple clubs say to join the 3rd division....who would be best suited?
Suppose you have to look at stadium, facilities, support, potential support, location etc
Suppose you have to look at stadium, facilities, support, potential support, location etc
A good hypothetical question. Virtually all suffer from poor stadia (see http://www.nonleaguescotland.co.uk )
Most have double or low three figure supports. Most have Senior league football nearby.
If Brechin can support league football, so can most towns that Junior sides come from. The village sides much less so.
The prime candidate would be Linlithgow Rose. Superb location, town is same size as Forfar, current support of around 300-350. Ground in pretty good nick but needs a concrete terrace behind one goal.
In the West, Auchinleck, Medda or Petershill would be closest to the mark ground-wise.
In the North, Banks O'Dee and Hillhead have seated stands but little else in the ground. Lewis United used the Chris Anderson Stadium until they were turfed out for it to be demolished. The North Region is trying to get its house in order regarding grounds, with a number of clubs denied promotion because of facilities. Fochabers played in a public park and lost their manager when they weren't allowed up. Lossie United were not going to be allowed up, though they seem to be ok for next season to play the level above. In the middle division, Lewis United are homeless and are not being promoted, while Aberdeen Lads Club's Jamieson Park is stopping them getting back into the Superleague.
Best supported is Pollok, the 2007-08 average being 610 for all home games and 565 for the 11 home league matches. Auchinleck, the Rose, Bankies, Kilbirnie, Arthurlie etc have good supports in the hundreds. Meadow's support is hard to say, when they're not winning it's down to 100 or so. I've been at Lok games at Medda Park that have had 250 folk there, with the majority being away fans. That said, they brought a good 250-300 to the game at Newlandsfield this year.
From the superleague I would say Linlithgow have the best set up looking at that website.
Camelon and Glenrothes also have nice wee grounds
Camelon and Glenrothes also have nice wee grounds
Ha Ha
Have to say reading through the nonleague site there
a wee typo made me laugh
must be hardy boys at Tayport cmonthelok
wouldnt want to take a tumble on that banking :-)
"The Canniepairt is one of my favourite grounds in Junior football, I must say, despite the fact that only three sides of the ground can be used - one end is a very large hedge. There is a big stand that runs down one half of the pitch, while right in the corner of the ground is the club's changing room block. A teabar and toilets can also be found here. The remaining two sides of the ground are different again; the side is banked glass, backed with more trees, while the other end is completely open, and is hard-standing.
Have to say reading through the nonleague site there
a wee typo made me laugh
must be hardy boys at Tayport cmonthelok
wouldnt want to take a tumble on that banking :-)
"The Canniepairt is one of my favourite grounds in Junior football, I must say, despite the fact that only three sides of the ground can be used - one end is a very large hedge. There is a big stand that runs down one half of the pitch, while right in the corner of the ground is the club's changing room block. A teabar and toilets can also be found here. The remaining two sides of the ground are different again; the side is banked glass, backed with more trees, while the other end is completely open, and is hard-standing.
QUOTE (roseyposey @ Jun 15 2008, 11:53)
Ha Ha
Have to say reading through the nonleague site there
a wee typo made me laugh
must be hardy boys at Tayport cmonthelok
wouldnt want to take a tumble on that banking :-)
"The Canniepairt is one of my favourite grounds in Junior football, I must say, despite the fact that only three sides of the ground can be used - one end is a very large hedge. There is a big stand that runs down one half of the pitch, while right in the corner of the ground is the club's changing room block. A teabar and toilets can also be found here. The remaining two sides of the ground are different again; the side is banked glass, backed with more trees, while the other end is completely open, and is hard-standing.
Have to say reading through the nonleague site there
a wee typo made me laugh
must be hardy boys at Tayport cmonthelok
wouldnt want to take a tumble on that banking :-)
"The Canniepairt is one of my favourite grounds in Junior football, I must say, despite the fact that only three sides of the ground can be used - one end is a very large hedge. There is a big stand that runs down one half of the pitch, while right in the corner of the ground is the club's changing room block. A teabar and toilets can also be found here. The remaining two sides of the ground are different again; the side is banked glass, backed with more trees, while the other end is completely open, and is hard-standing.
It wouldn't be a typo at some of the West grounds!
QUOTE (cmontheloknow @ Jun 15 2008, 11:58)
It wouldn't be a typo at some of the West grounds!
Linlithgow tick all the right boxes in terms of ground facilities and catchment area.
But would their fans be happy if the side no longer raked in trophies galore and were forced to huff and puff against the likes of Cowdenbeath and Montrose? And would they shell out two and a half times the money to watch this?
But would their fans be happy if the side no longer raked in trophies galore and were forced to huff and puff against the likes of Cowdenbeath and Montrose? And would they shell out two and a half times the money to watch this?
Think this is a major point, many go along to the games pay their £5 or £3 for OAPs but I think crowds would fall rather than increase (apart from an initial burst of enthusiasm with League status) due to the extra entry costs that are near impossible to reduce because of the costs involved with being a league club. I myself follow Stranraer but take in many Junior games when we are not playing and the cheap entry is a major factor in being able to go to 2/3 games a week at this time of year with no SFL.
QUOTE (centralparker @ Jun 15 2008, 14:26)
Linlithgow tick all the right boxes in terms of ground facilities and catchment area.
But would their fans be happy if the side no longer raked in trophies galore and were forced to huff and puff against the likes of Cowdenbeath and Montrose? And would they shell out two and a half times the money to watch this?
But would their fans be happy if the side no longer raked in trophies galore and were forced to huff and puff against the likes of Cowdenbeath and Montrose? And would they shell out two and a half times the money to watch this?
I don't watch the Rose because they rake in lots of trophies. Like every other supporter I see them as a bonus (we have been more "bonused" than most in recent times right enough!). I go along because they are my local team, the facilities are decent, there are some great games and they are excellent value for money. I already have a senior team but I wouldn't give them another dime as things stand! So there is a conundrum. Do you want to head down the same "holy grail" or do you stick with what you have? The answer always, always comes back to a change in structure. The risks required to make a leap in the current set up - at least from a club of Linlithgow's stature - are enormous. If there is someone keen to throw good money after bad (Irvine Meadow or Bathgate), then good luck to them. But, like Gretna, they'd be risking the fabric of my club. If the well runs dry, then these clubs are usually fvcked! Bathgate will be fine I think - Hill has the club at heart. I don't know enough about Meadow.
But in terms of current facilities and location, Linlithgow probably have least to do to their physical infrastructure to step up. The stadium has already been passed fit by the SPL pitch inspectors for use by Falkirk in the SPL reserve league next season. We need decent lavvies though!!
Off the field, the current committee would combust at the thought of going senior. But they've done a tremendous job to deliver what we have at the moment.
QUOTE (HTG @ Jun 15 2008, 15:09)
I don't watch the Rose because they rake in lots of trophies. Like every other supporter I see them as a bonus (we have been more "bonused" than most in recent times right enough!). I go along because they are my local team, the facilities are decent, there are some great games and they are excellent value for money. I already have a senior team but I wouldn't give them another dime as things stand! So there is a conundrum. Do you want to head down the same "holy grail" or do you stick with what you have? The answer always, always comes back to a change in structure. The risks required to make a leap in the current set up - at least from a club of Linlithgow's stature - are enormous. If there is someone keen to throw good money after bad (Irvine Meadow or Bathgate), then good luck to them. But, like Gretna, they'd be risking the fabric of my club. If the well runs dry, then these clubs are usually fvcked! Bathgate will be fine I think - Hill has the club at heart. I don't know enough about Meadow.
But in terms of current facilities and location, Linlithgow probably have least to do to their physical infrastructure to step up. The stadium has already been passed fit by the SPL pitch inspectors for use by Falkirk in the SPL reserve league next season. We need decent lavvies though!!
Off the field, the current committee would combust at the thought of going senior. But they've done a tremendous job to deliver what we have at the moment.
But in terms of current facilities and location, Linlithgow probably have least to do to their physical infrastructure to step up. The stadium has already been passed fit by the SPL pitch inspectors for use by Falkirk in the SPL reserve league next season. We need decent lavvies though!!
Off the field, the current committee would combust at the thought of going senior. But they've done a tremendous job to deliver what we have at the moment.
....and it all comes back to the same thing, if there's wasn't such a "jump" between Junior fitba and the SFL then these concerns - through time - would disappear.
ie. SFL3 North and SFL3 South with equal numbers of current SFL clubs and better non-league clubs, then the regional Superleagues below that.
An SFL3 South where Linlithgow could compete with the likes of Stenny, Berwick, Spartans, Pollok, Albion Rovers, Auchinleck, East Stirling, Petershill, Cowdenbeath, Lochee Utd etc would still be an attractive product to most current Junior fans surely?
Unfortunately, Gorodn Smith seems fixated on the crazy idea of a "National Conference"
sounds a lot better than say. berwick.elgin,stranraer,forfar on a wet wednesday night in december.
QUOTE (lyt @ Jun 15 2008, 18:41)
sounds a lot better than say. berwick.elgin,stranraer,forfar on a wet wednesday night in december.
That is a total extreme though. SFL sides hardly ever play league matches on midweeks, and never from November to February (unless they request to). People always come out with 'we don't want to go to Elgin on a February midweek' - in reality that may hardly have ever occurred.
By the very same token, Junior clubs could be accused of operating a poorly-organised cup tournament - where you could end up travelling to the other corner of the nation for something like 6 or 7 rounds in a row, plus replays. And playing thrice a week, and well into June as well.
Burnieman is correct that people (and clubs) would be much less concerned if there wasn't such a divide between the Third Division and the SFL. But it's chicken and egg situation - the only way that gap is going to be closed, is if clubs are prepared to put a pyramid system in place.
Lastly, I see no reason why Juniors (especially West juniors) should fear or oppose a pyramid. No-one is going to hold a gun to their head and force them to be promoted. For that reason, the pyramid in the West area would simply be a carbon copy of the current West Junior system - except that Annan, Dalbeattie and Threave would be involved in it; and the SOSFL would sit below it. The same clubs would play the same matches in the same tournaments - but instead of hitting a glass ceiling (or clubs above getting cuffed all the time), movement would be possible.
Regional leagues in the pyramid would be fine but Id hope the SFL itself would always remain a truly national setup. Trips around the country are something fans tend to enjoy and frankly Id rather stick with trips to places like Dingwall, Peterhead, Berwick etc than be involved in a Central League.
aah the old chicken and egg situation.
QUOTE (Waspie @ Jun 15 2008, 23:43)
Regional leagues in the pyramid would be fine but Id hope the SFL itself would always remain a truly national setup. Trips around the country are something fans tend to enjoy and frankly Id rather stick with trips to places like Dingwall, Peterhead, Berwick etc than be involved in a Central League.
If SFL3 remains as it is, I guarantee you there will be few Junior clubs interested - and by the looks of it few Highland League clubs either - in promotion to it.
We have to get real here, a National league supported by on average 500 a game (if you're lucky) is just ludicrous.
A three region non-league set-up, feeding into a two region SFL bottom division, feeding into a national SFL is the natural way to go eg. East Region Superleague - SFL3 South - SFL2 National, or something at least resembling that.
QUOTE (Burnie_man @ Jun 16 2008, 00:01)
If SFL3 remains as it is, I guarantee you there will be few Junior clubs interested - and by the looks of it few Highland League clubs either - in promotion to it.
We have to get real here, a National league supported by on average 500 a game (if you're lucky) is just ludicrous.
A three region non-league set-up, feeding into a two region SFL bottom division, feeding into a national SFL is the natural way to go eg. East Region Superleague - SFL3 South - SFL2 National, or something at least resembling that.
We have to get real here, a National league supported by on average 500 a game (if you're lucky) is just ludicrous.
A three region non-league set-up, feeding into a two region SFL bottom division, feeding into a national SFL is the natural way to go eg. East Region Superleague - SFL3 South - SFL2 National, or something at least resembling that.
So we come back to this 'junior' viewpoint that a regional set-up is a must. The difficulty is that nobody involved in the SFL appears to agree or want this. And in what way is 'a National league supported by on average 500 a game' 'ludicrous' as those involved are the clubs which generally seem to manage their books effectively?
QUOTE (Clayhole Blue @ Jun 16 2008, 12:31)
So we come back to this 'junior' viewpoint that a regional set-up is a must. The difficulty is that nobody involved in the SFL appears to agree or want this. And in what way is 'a National league supported by on average 500 a game' 'ludicrous' as those involved are the clubs which generally seem to manage their books effectively?
Clayhole, whether you want a regional set-up or not, something has to be done to close the gap and allow clubs to move forward at a more sensible pace. There is a huge investment required to meet the criteria for SFL membership - some of the existing clubs would really struggle to meet this. But they don't have to because they are already in.
The analogy isn't great but if all SFL clubs were informed that there was a space in the SPL for any club who could meet the minimum criteria, how many would apply? Bear in mind that not only would you have to demonstrate that their criteria were met but you'd have to win a vote (by a self-interested collection of other clubs) against a pile of other hopefuls. My guess is that not many who needed to significantly upgrade would bother to apply because the cost of time, effort and money would more than likely be wasted.
That's exactly where a club like Linlithgow sits at the moment. We could spend a fortune to further upgrade our facilities, fail with our application and find ourselves sitting with an SFL compliant stadium, in a junior league (where we were before), with a huge debt and the glass ceiling of a closed shop still in place until some other unfortunate goes out the box. Tell me where the incentive is to go down that road??
QUOTE (Burnie_man @ Jun 15 2008, 18:12)
Unfortunately, Gorodn Smith seems fixated on the crazy idea of a "National Conference"
A scheme which virtually no clubs outside the SFL would support. Great thinking Gordon.
What if the SFA want to see a pyramid introduced and the SFL say no thanks. What happens then?
Surely it would suit most clubs if we (1) scrapped the Third Division entirely, sending the 10 clubs into the top regional divisions; or (2) united the 2nd and 3rd Divisions into a larger division of 18.
As regards Centralparker's point - the SFA control all of Scottish football, and could force them to.
As regards Centralparker's point - the SFA control all of Scottish football, and could force them to.
QUOTE (HibeeJibee @ Jun 16 2008, 15:47)
Surely it would suit most clubs if we (1) scrapped the Third Division entirely, sending the 10 clubs into the top regional divisions; or (2) united the 2nd and 3rd Divisions into a larger division of 18.
It clearly wouldn't suit many of the existing SFL3 clubs. Firstly, a number of their supporters have been quite clear that they welcome the opportunity to see other parts of the country and secondly there are some clubs who cannot countenance the prospect of joining up with the lower ranks in a system that could see one or two of their number plummet through leagues if they don't invest a wee bit more. At the moment, all the onus is on those who aspire to invest. Those already there can choose to sit and do fvck all in the knowledge that the worst that can happen is nothing and eventually a reasonable pay day will arrive in the form of an SPL team turning up in the cup.
QUOTE (Clayhole Blue @ Jun 16 2008, 12:31)
So we come back to this 'junior' viewpoint that a regional set-up is a must.
Not just a "junior" viewpoint, just how many clubs have applied for the golden ticket?
QUOTE
The difficulty is that nobody involved in the SFL appears to agree or want this.
I wouldn't be so sure.
QUOTE
And in what way is 'a National league supported by on average 500 a game' 'ludicrous' as those involved are the clubs which generally seem to manage their books effectively?
OK, if it's not ludicrous, why aren't there 30+ Junior/Highland/EoS/SoS clubs battering on the door to get into SFL3? only 5 have bothered to apply and IMO only 3 are serious about it. Hardly an endorsement of SFL football.
I find it disappointing that no Junior club has made an application to join the SFL.
So, what is it that Junior clubs want? Do they really want a pyramid, or is it just the chance of a couple of decent paydays in the Scottish Cup? This is what it looks like, and some of the non-Junior sides aren't very happy about their own chances of hitting the big payday being diminished.
That's tough, I suppose, but if the entries into the Scottish Cup aren't a first step to a pyramid including the Juniors, what is it being done for?
I'd be happy with a full pyramid system in Scotland, but it would have to include everyone.
So, what is it that Junior clubs want? Do they really want a pyramid, or is it just the chance of a couple of decent paydays in the Scottish Cup? This is what it looks like, and some of the non-Junior sides aren't very happy about their own chances of hitting the big payday being diminished.
That's tough, I suppose, but if the entries into the Scottish Cup aren't a first step to a pyramid including the Juniors, what is it being done for?
I'd be happy with a full pyramid system in Scotland, but it would have to include everyone.
QUOTE (Burnie_man @ Jun 16 2008, 23:10)
Not just a "junior" viewpoint, just how many clubs have applied for the golden ticket?
I wouldn't be so sure.
OK, if it's not ludicrous, why aren't there 30+ Junior/Highland/EoS/SoS clubs battering on the door to get into SFL3? only 5 have bothered to apply and IMO only 3 are serious about it. Hardly an endorsement of SFL football.
I wouldn't be so sure.
OK, if it's not ludicrous, why aren't there 30+ Junior/Highland/EoS/SoS clubs battering on the door to get into SFL3? only 5 have bothered to apply and IMO only 3 are serious about it. Hardly an endorsement of SFL football.
It's hardly an endorsement of Junior/Highland/EoS/SoS football either, I reckon.
QUOTE (Hampden Diehard @ Jul 1 2008, 17:50)
I find it disappointing that no Junior club has made an application to join the SFL.
So, what is it that Junior clubs want? Do they really want a pyramid, or is it just the chance of a couple of decent paydays in the Scottish Cup? This is what it looks like, and some of the non-Junior sides aren't very happy about their own chances of hitting the big payday being diminished.
That's tough, I suppose, but if the entries into the Scottish Cup aren't a first step to a pyramid including the Juniors, what is it being done for?
I'd be happy with a full pyramid system in Scotland, but it would have to include everyone.
So, what is it that Junior clubs want? Do they really want a pyramid, or is it just the chance of a couple of decent paydays in the Scottish Cup? This is what it looks like, and some of the non-Junior sides aren't very happy about their own chances of hitting the big payday being diminished.
That's tough, I suppose, but if the entries into the Scottish Cup aren't a first step to a pyramid including the Juniors, what is it being done for?
I'd be happy with a full pyramid system in Scotland, but it would have to include everyone.
The SJFA campaigned for Juniors (as they are Registered Members of the SFA) to be included in the Scottish Cup, but it was never something the clubs themselves pushed for, as far as I know. The cup has also been opened up to the winners of the EOS, SOS and HFL should they not have Associate or Full SFA membership. Now, every Registered Member of the SFA has the chance to participate in the Scottish Cup. Is that a bad thing?
A pyramid has heehaw to do with the Scottish League. In England, there are teams in the pyramid that will not reach the Conference North or South. Teams like Burghead Thistle and Stonehouse Violet will never in a month of sundays be SFL material, but they could participate in a theoretical pyramid at a lower level. It was utter lunacy on the part of the Pyramid Working Group to write to every non-league club in Scotland asking them if they had aspirations of joining the SFL. That's like writing to Queen's Park and asking them if they had aspirations of winning the SPL.
The wrong questions are being asked. Here are some that should be.
QUOTE
1. Does your club see the long term benefit of a pyramid to Scottish football? (YES/NO/UNSURE)
2. If yes, select which stage you would see your club being most comfortable:
A - SFL national divisions and above
B - Nation-wide non-league level
C - Regional non-league level (North/East/West)
D - District non-league level
E - Amateur ranks
3. Is a National non-league division (Q2, option B) a viable option in your club's opinion? (YES/NO/UNSURE)
4. If no or unsure to Q3, would your club prefer a Regional tier (East/West/North) immediately beneath the administering of the Scottish League? (YES/NO/UNSURE)
5. Does your club have the infrastructure to play in a National division? (YES/NO/UNSURE)
6. Could your club afford to upgrade its infrastructure to play in a National division? (YES/NO/UNSURE)
7. If your club is against a pyramid, can you explain your reasons why. Options are provided, but you can provide your own unique answers.
A - Status quo works
B - Loss of local fixtures
C - Loss of tradition
D - Loss of chance to win trophies
E - Increased costs
F - Increased travel
G - .......................
2. If yes, select which stage you would see your club being most comfortable:
A - SFL national divisions and above
B - Nation-wide non-league level
C - Regional non-league level (North/East/West)
D - District non-league level
E - Amateur ranks
3. Is a National non-league division (Q2, option B) a viable option in your club's opinion? (YES/NO/UNSURE)
4. If no or unsure to Q3, would your club prefer a Regional tier (East/West/North) immediately beneath the administering of the Scottish League? (YES/NO/UNSURE)
5. Does your club have the infrastructure to play in a National division? (YES/NO/UNSURE)
6. Could your club afford to upgrade its infrastructure to play in a National division? (YES/NO/UNSURE)
7. If your club is against a pyramid, can you explain your reasons why. Options are provided, but you can provide your own unique answers.
A - Status quo works
B - Loss of local fixtures
C - Loss of tradition
D - Loss of chance to win trophies
E - Increased costs
F - Increased travel
G - .......................
In my own opinion, the Third Division is not an attractive proposition to Junior clubs for the following reasons.
1. The big clubs currently enjoy success.
http://pollokfc.co.uk/reports0708/etccelebrations0708.htm
http://pollokfc.co.uk/reports0708/titlecelebrations0708.htm
http://pollokfc.co.uk/reports0708/poty0708.htm
There would be tremendous reluctance to give that up. Even a twice convicted Saudi shoplifter could count the honours won by some SFL clubs since the dawn of time, and maybe our trophies might be sneered at, but we enjoy the success we have.
2. Local derby matches and traditional rivalries.
3. We have a set-up that works pretty well. 3 Regions, a national knockout cup, gates aren't that bad.
4. Costs are just about manageable.
5. Grounds are dumps and it would cost a fortune to upgrade them.
6. Particularly in the West Region, fans might support an SPL side alongside their Junior team.
The Scottish Cup might melt hardened attitudes, only time will tell.
In terms of Lok's view, I think we'd enjoy playing in a pyramid at a Regional level.
Elgin fans are probably in the best position to compare before and after. The Highland League is very similar to the top level of the SJFA and I'm sure some Elgin fans miss being a part of the successes that could be enjoyed there. Peterhead have managed to establish themselves as a level above that, but I'm not sure Elgin have yet. The East of Scotland League is a lower level in many ways, be it some teams playing on public parks in it, very low crowds etc. Maybe that's why so many (80% of the applicants) want to escape. No Highland sides, Cove apart, are interested.
I think Junior clubs may rue the fact that none of them applied to the SFL. From my understanding this has led to a view that the Juniors aren't interested in a pyramid at all (which is, of course, an incorrect conclusion - but nevertheless an existent one). This may inspire senior clubs to exclude Juniors from their thoughts on a pyramid, and attempt to go it alone. This would, IMO, be a bad move - but Junior clubs, or the SJFA, have got to be proactive in some sense, if they want to be in.
QUOTE (HibeeJibee @ Jul 1 2008, 18:47)
I think Junior clubs may rue the fact that none of them applied to the SFL. From my understanding this has led to a view that the Juniors aren't interested in a pyramid at all (which is, of course, an incorrect conclusion - but nevertheless an existent one). This may inspire senior clubs to exclude Juniors from their thoughts on a pyramid, and attempt to go it alone. This would, IMO, be a bad move - but Junior clubs, or the SJFA, have got to be proactive in some sense, if they want to be in.
Until clubs are provided with a means of upgrading facilities then this is a waste of bandwidth. I don't know how many non-league grounds you have been to, but I've been to many. Facilities are dreadful across the country. Most clubs are not in a position to apply. SJFA clubs don't get handouts from the SFA to improve their grounds or invest in youth development.
There were one or two Junior clubs that might have been able to put forward a viable bid, but only one or two. Meadow XI have a ground in fairly decent oder but it has no lights. Their support base is comparable to the 5 applicants on a bad day. Linlithgow would have needed to concrete one side and upgrade toilets. Their committee are staunch Junior men though. Auchinleck have the basis of a decent ground, but there are serious issues in terms of access to the changing rooms and also toilets. The village itself is not much bigger than Gretna. Their very healthy support is about community. That would be lost in the SFL.
I agree with that, but think the process is: (1) Junior clubs initiate dialogue on union in non-league football > (2) SFL backs future pyramid > (3) non-leaguers invest in facilities, receiving help from authorities and possibly government > (4) pyramid system is put in place > (5) everyone happy...
QUOTE (HibeeJibee @ Jul 1 2008, 19:41)
I agree with that, but think the process is: (1) Junior clubs initiate dialogue on union in non-league football > (2) SFL backs future pyramid > (3) non-leaguers invest in facilities, receiving help from authorities and possibly government > (4) pyramid system is put in place > (5) everyone happy...
The initiation of any dialogue has to come from Hampden.
There is no government money for such things as ground improvements - Hampden boiled the pot dry. Where money has appeared to clubs, it has been part of urban regeneration (Petershill) or in the old mining areas, mineral trusts.
QUOTE (cmontheloknow @ Jul 1 2008, 19:49)
The initiation of any dialogue has to come from Hampden.
There is no government money for such things as ground improvements - Hampden boiled the pot dry. Where money has appeared to clubs, it has been part of urban regeneration (Petershill) or in the old mining areas, mineral trusts.
There is no government money for such things as ground improvements - Hampden boiled the pot dry. Where money has appeared to clubs, it has been part of urban regeneration (Petershill) or in the old mining areas, mineral trusts.
If any club shows a progression system where they invest in youth football which can also be seen as a community initiative (ticking the boxes of reducing youth crime, underage drinking and promoting a positive, healthy lifestyle choice) then they can apply for Lottery funding to develop and maintain their infrastructure. This includes the upgrading of facilities.
QUOTE (HibeeJibee @ Jul 1 2008, 19:41)
I agree with that, but think the process is: (1) Junior clubs initiate dialogue on union in non-league football > (2) SFL backs future pyramid > (3) non-leaguers invest in facilities, receiving help from authorities and possibly government > (4) pyramid system is put in place > (5) everyone happy...
This topic is a waste of space
Can you imagine League football being played in Glencaple or New Abbey?
Community football is what junior football is all about and as for a pyramid?
You lot are having a laugh
QUOTE (Queensthroughandthrough @ Jul 1 2008, 22:34)
This topic is a waste of space
Can you imagine League football being played in Glencaple or New Abbey?
Community football is what junior football is all about and as for a pyramid?
You lot are having a laugh
Can you imagine League football being played in Glencaple or New Abbey?
Community football is what junior football is all about and as for a pyramid?
You lot are having a laugh
I agree with you in most of what you say, though I don't see why we can't have a set-up that allows teams to gain entry to the SFL (in whatever form it is) through on the pitch endeavour as opposed to a dodgy ballot.
There is a place for every club in the country in a pyramid. The mistake people are making in this thread and beyond is to assume that just because not all clubs are interested in reaching the upper levels that it is therefore a dead duck.
I'm still trying to fathom what the point of asking Fochabers and Steelend Vics if they had SFL aspirations was. Pyramid Working Group? Ho ho ho.
The thing is, there are clubs which can make the step, or would be able to in the future. However i agree, asking other clubs if they had sfl aspirations was a shocker.
QUOTE (HibeeJibee @ Jul 1 2008, 19:41)
I agree with that, but think the process is: (1) Junior clubs initiate dialogue on union in non-league football > (2) SFL backs future pyramid > (3) non-leaguers invest in facilities, receiving help from authorities and possibly government > (4) pyramid system is put in place > (5) everyone happy...
SFA leveling the playing field by requiring that the requirements on new applicants must also be met by current members would help a bit as well - maybe stage (0.5) or (1.5)
Millfield Marksman, this may actually happen in near-ish future, because the SFA are proposing to extend Club Licensing to the HFL, SOSFL and EOSFL in stages in 2010, 2012 and 2015. So I'm told.
QUOTE
Millfield Marksman, this may actually happen in near-ish future, because the SFA are proposing to extend Club Licensing to the HFL, SOSFL and EOSFL in stages in 2010, 2012 and 2015. So I'm told.
Interesting. I suppose 7 years notice will be required for some of the more facility-challenged clubs. However, I'm fast approaching my 45th birthday and beginning to doubt that a joined-up system will arrive before they nail the coffin lid down
I wonder what the odds are on Scotland winning a major tournament - Hibs winning the Scottish Cup - and a comprehensive pyramid system being put in place before I kick the bucket... 
QUOTE (HibeeJibee @ Jul 2 2008, 13:57)
I wonder what the odds are on Scotland winning a major tournament - Hibs winning the Scottish Cup - and a comprehensive pyramid system being put in place before I kick the bucket...
I would say you had a decent chance of that comming in appart from Hibs winning the Scottish cup.
I don't blame the Juniors for not wanting to go Senior. Why would they want to? Fans can probably get a better day out at some Junior matches than most SFL games.
QUOTE (cmontheloknow @ Jul 1 2008, 19:49)
There is no government money for such things as ground improvements - Hampden boiled the pot dry.
Another quote straight from the Jim Traynor book of journalism. As mentioned above, if teams get off their erses, money is available to them. Blaming the Hampden development for money not being available for ground development at all the other grounds in Scotland is a tired argument and is innacurate. It sounds great as a headline in the paper though.
QP recently received more money to develop Lesser Hampden as part of a community initiative. That is open to any other club that makes the effort. Your own club could have a great ground if they had sold out to Safeways a few years ago and moved a couple of hundred yards, yet they chose not to. I'm sure they had their reasons, and good luck to them. But don't then gripe about no money being available for development.
Opportunities to better your ground do present themselves; blaming the Hampden situation rather than taking the opportunities is a lazy excuse for inaction.
My original point was that Junior clubs are happy to be part of the SFA set-up where it suits them. The thinking seems to be - hopefully a couple of decent gates in the Scottish Cup, and then back to junior league football the next week. Either juniors want to be part of the big SFA family (and that includes a pyramid) or they don't. If they don't, then fine, but don't moan about not getting into the senior Scottish Cup.
QUOTE
Either juniors want to be part of the big SFA family (and that includes a pyramid) or they don't.
You can't treat the Juniors as one block though. Some Juniors do want a unified approach to Scottish Football (whether under the SFA or some other new body). It hardly matters to the majority of Junior clubs which structure they're at the arse end of
QUOTE (Hampden Diehard @ Jul 3 2008, 13:14)
Another quote straight from the Jim Traynor book of journalism. As mentioned above, if teams get off their erses, money is available to them. Blaming the Hampden development for money not being available for ground development at all the other grounds in Scotland is a tired argument and is innacurate. It sounds great as a headline in the paper though.
QP recently received more money to develop Lesser Hampden as part of a community initiative. That is open to any other club that makes the effort. Your own club could have a great ground if they had sold out to Safeways a few years ago and moved a couple of hundred yards, yet they chose not to. I'm sure they had their reasons, and good luck to them. But don't then gripe about no money being available for development.
Opportunities to better your ground do present themselves; blaming the Hampden situation rather than taking the opportunities is a lazy excuse for inaction.
My original point was that Junior clubs are happy to be part of the SFA set-up where it suits them. The thinking seems to be - hopefully a couple of decent gates in the Scottish Cup, and then back to junior league football the next week. Either juniors want to be part of the big SFA family (and that includes a pyramid) or they don't. If they don't, then fine, but don't moan about not getting into the senior Scottish Cup.
QP recently received more money to develop Lesser Hampden as part of a community initiative. That is open to any other club that makes the effort. Your own club could have a great ground if they had sold out to Safeways a few years ago and moved a couple of hundred yards, yet they chose not to. I'm sure they had their reasons, and good luck to them. But don't then gripe about no money being available for development.
Opportunities to better your ground do present themselves; blaming the Hampden situation rather than taking the opportunities is a lazy excuse for inaction.
My original point was that Junior clubs are happy to be part of the SFA set-up where it suits them. The thinking seems to be - hopefully a couple of decent gates in the Scottish Cup, and then back to junior league football the next week. Either juniors want to be part of the big SFA family (and that includes a pyramid) or they don't. If they don't, then fine, but don't moan about not getting into the senior Scottish Cup.
As far as I recall, Hampden DID use up all Football Trust money available to Scotland.
As for Lok's relocation, it was to the site of Homebase which is a wee bit further than a few hundred yards. The club felt such a remote location for both ground and social club would be a prime target for vandalism, that part of the city being not great.
More generally, no one's 'moaning' about anything in the Juniors.
Please point out to me the Senior non-league in the West of Scotland that would allow clubs too small to play in the SFL to exist as a Senior entity. It doesn't exist. In the East the Senior non-league is small fry compared to the Junior Superleague. In the North, the HFL is the bigger of the two and most play Junior because they're too small for the Senior game.
What a pyramid has to do with this I do not know. It has never been discussed by any of the clubs. Then out of the blue last month ALL non-league were asked if we wanted to be a part of the SFL. No consultation or discussion, no deliberation. Tom Johnston, when he saw the response, was 'surprised' there was some interest from the Juniors though quite frankly why small clubs like St Anthony's should have said anything other than no is hardly surprising.
No one knows what form a pyramid would take because no one has really discussed it.
No one knows who'd be truly interested in a pyramid because no one has discussed it.
The Senior non-leagues are chock-full of clubs with poorer facilities than Junior clubs and lower ambitions. There are HFL clubs on record as having no interest in a pyramid or more specifically the SFL. Why not decry them for pocketing SFA handouts (i.e. the £10,000 xmas bonus which the Registered membership do not get) and hoping for big cup paydays?
Bearing in mind the Pyramid Working Group wrote to clubs in May to ask:
Does your club have aspirations of playing in the Scottish Football League?
Here were the views of the Highland League when approached in April 2008 by one of the Edinburgh newspapers.
http://sport.scotsman.com/sport/Highland-c...join.3975533.jp
Does your club have aspirations of playing in the Scottish Football League?
Here were the views of the Highland League when approached in April 2008 by one of the Edinburgh newspapers.
http://sport.scotsman.com/sport/Highland-c...join.3975533.jp
QUOTE
BRORA RANGERS
"We wouldn't be looking to enter the SFL because of our location and population. There just isn't the fan base to support a league club.
"The league has taken a while to get over losing the other clubs. Losing another wouldn't be ideal and we would all have to work that bit harder to maintain the profile of the league. But we wouldn't criticise a club for wanting to better themselves" – secretary Kevin MacKay
BUCKIE THISTLE
"We are definitely not interested in moving to the SFL. When teams from this area have moved to the Third Division they have used players based in the central belt and we would not want to lose our local identity.
"I would not want to see any team leave the Highland League because it would create an imbalance. I would rather see a team come into the league but there is too much legislation" – president Mark Duncan
CLACHNACUDDIN
"We would not be interested. The travel costs are too prohibitive and I know from speaking to people at Elgin that they can run into the thousands. It would be a hard blow for the Highland League if another club was to go" – chairman David Dowling
COVE RANGERS
"We have never hidden our to desire to play in the Scottish League. We have had two attempts at gaining entry in the past but we were knocked back" – chairman Keith Moorhouse
DEVERONVALE
"I don't envisage us applying to enter the SFL in its current form but a regionalised pyramid system would appeal to us.
"Banff is not the easiest place to get to and while we would like to advance our club, we cannot see ourselves entering a league where we would have to travel to the likes of Berwick and Stranraer" – chief executive David Brown
FORRES MECHANICS
"For financial reasons, we would certainly not be interested. We are looking to get another club into the league, not lose one" – club secretary David MacDonald
FORT WILLIAM
"We are not interested (in joining the SFL) at all. We want another club to come into the Highland League. We don't want to lose anyone" – chairman Jimmy Campbell
FRASERBURGH
"Moving to the SFL is not something we are looking to do mainly because of our location. We respect clubs who are looking to move but we do believe a pyramid system will be introduced soon" – secretary Finlay Noble
HUNTLY
"If a vacancy came up anytime soon, it is definitely something that we would talk about and consider" – director of football Andy Troup
INVERURIE LOCO WORKS
"We would always take a positive view on anything that would enhance our club. But it is perhaps too early for us" – chairman Steve Innes
KEITH
"It's not something we are looking at. The problem for us is population. Keith is a town with only 5,000 people in it while Elgin has a population of 25,000 and they have struggled" – chairman Sandy Stables
LOSSIEMOUTH
"We are in the middle of building a new team so the SFL is of no interest to us. We have lost thousands in gate money from our derbies with Elgin City but if another club was to leave it would not make much difference to us" – secretary Alan McIntosh
NAIRN COUNTY
"Nairn County are focused on progressing within the Highland League and we have suffered from losing several big derbies against Inverness Caley, Thistle, Elgin and Ross County. I am not wishing to restrain ambitious clubs, but the Highland League is the reason that these clubs are in a position to make the step up and the SFL should recognise this" – chairman Peter Mackintosh
ROTHES
"We would be in favour of a pyramid system but not entering the SFL in its current form. I think most Highland League clubs would not be able to enter the SFL at the moment. In fact, I think it is highly unlikely a club from our league would make the move anytime soon. Grounds up here in the Highlands are simply not as good as non-league grounds in the central belt and clubs there are better off financially too" – secretary Brian Cameron
WICK ACADEMY
"It would be a negative step for the club to enter the SFL. You just have to look at Elgin City who were huge in the Highland League.
"They are now a bottom-half Third Division club and their crowds have suffered as a result. But I am not ruling us out of stepping up one day because we travel long distances for our away games as it is and I am positive about the footballing talent in the Wick area" – League management representative Rob Murray
"We wouldn't be looking to enter the SFL because of our location and population. There just isn't the fan base to support a league club.
"The league has taken a while to get over losing the other clubs. Losing another wouldn't be ideal and we would all have to work that bit harder to maintain the profile of the league. But we wouldn't criticise a club for wanting to better themselves" – secretary Kevin MacKay
BUCKIE THISTLE
"We are definitely not interested in moving to the SFL. When teams from this area have moved to the Third Division they have used players based in the central belt and we would not want to lose our local identity.
"I would not want to see any team leave the Highland League because it would create an imbalance. I would rather see a team come into the league but there is too much legislation" – president Mark Duncan
CLACHNACUDDIN
"We would not be interested. The travel costs are too prohibitive and I know from speaking to people at Elgin that they can run into the thousands. It would be a hard blow for the Highland League if another club was to go" – chairman David Dowling
COVE RANGERS
"We have never hidden our to desire to play in the Scottish League. We have had two attempts at gaining entry in the past but we were knocked back" – chairman Keith Moorhouse
DEVERONVALE
"I don't envisage us applying to enter the SFL in its current form but a regionalised pyramid system would appeal to us.
"Banff is not the easiest place to get to and while we would like to advance our club, we cannot see ourselves entering a league where we would have to travel to the likes of Berwick and Stranraer" – chief executive David Brown
FORRES MECHANICS
"For financial reasons, we would certainly not be interested. We are looking to get another club into the league, not lose one" – club secretary David MacDonald
FORT WILLIAM
"We are not interested (in joining the SFL) at all. We want another club to come into the Highland League. We don't want to lose anyone" – chairman Jimmy Campbell
FRASERBURGH
"Moving to the SFL is not something we are looking to do mainly because of our location. We respect clubs who are looking to move but we do believe a pyramid system will be introduced soon" – secretary Finlay Noble
HUNTLY
"If a vacancy came up anytime soon, it is definitely something that we would talk about and consider" – director of football Andy Troup
INVERURIE LOCO WORKS
"We would always take a positive view on anything that would enhance our club. But it is perhaps too early for us" – chairman Steve Innes
KEITH
"It's not something we are looking at. The problem for us is population. Keith is a town with only 5,000 people in it while Elgin has a population of 25,000 and they have struggled" – chairman Sandy Stables
LOSSIEMOUTH
"We are in the middle of building a new team so the SFL is of no interest to us. We have lost thousands in gate money from our derbies with Elgin City but if another club was to leave it would not make much difference to us" – secretary Alan McIntosh
NAIRN COUNTY
"Nairn County are focused on progressing within the Highland League and we have suffered from losing several big derbies against Inverness Caley, Thistle, Elgin and Ross County. I am not wishing to restrain ambitious clubs, but the Highland League is the reason that these clubs are in a position to make the step up and the SFL should recognise this" – chairman Peter Mackintosh
ROTHES
"We would be in favour of a pyramid system but not entering the SFL in its current form. I think most Highland League clubs would not be able to enter the SFL at the moment. In fact, I think it is highly unlikely a club from our league would make the move anytime soon. Grounds up here in the Highlands are simply not as good as non-league grounds in the central belt and clubs there are better off financially too" – secretary Brian Cameron
WICK ACADEMY
"It would be a negative step for the club to enter the SFL. You just have to look at Elgin City who were huge in the Highland League.
"They are now a bottom-half Third Division club and their crowds have suffered as a result. But I am not ruling us out of stepping up one day because we travel long distances for our away games as it is and I am positive about the footballing talent in the Wick area" – League management representative Rob Murray
QUOTE (Hampden Diehard @ Jul 3 2008, 13:14)
Blaming the Hampden development for money not being available for ground development at all the other grounds in Scotland is a tired argument and is innacurate. It sounds great as a headline in the paper though.
It may be a tired argument, but it's still a valid one.
QUOTE
QP recently received more money to develop Lesser Hampden as part of a community initiative. That is open to any other club that makes the effort.
Good for QP, try doing that when you have a committee of 6 or 7, if you're lucky.
QUOTE
Opportunities to better your ground do present themselves; blaming the Hampden situation rather than taking the opportunities is a lazy excuse for inaction.
See above
QUOTE
My original point was that Junior clubs are happy to be part of the SFA set-up where it suits them. The thinking seems to be - hopefully a couple of decent gates in the Scottish Cup, and then back to junior league football the next week. Either juniors want to be part of the big SFA family (and that includes a pyramid) or they don't. If they don't, then fine, but don't moan about not getting into the senior Scottish Cup.
What Pyramid is that then? I must have missed it.......where do the likes of Pollok go to play their football if they want to "join the SFA family"?
QUOTE (cmontheloknow @ Jul 3 2008, 14:13)
Bearing in mind the Pyramid Working Group wrote to clubs in May to ask:
Does your club have aspirations of playing in the Scottish Football League?
Here were the views of the Highland League when approached in April 2008 by one of the Edinburgh newspapers.
http
://sport.scotsman.com/sport/Highland-c...oin.3975533.jp
Does your club have aspirations of playing in the Scottish Football League?
Here were the views of the Highland League when approached in April 2008 by one of the Edinburgh newspapers.
http
://sport.scotsman.com/sport/Highland-c...oin.3975533.jp
Never seen that article before, but it goes to show how big a "carrot" the SFL is for Highland League clubs, which is little different from the opinions of Junior clubs.
Deveronvale have got the right idea:
"I don't envisage us applying to enter the SFL in its current form but a regionalised pyramid system would appeal to us.
"Banff is not the easiest place to get to and while we would like to advance our club, we cannot see ourselves entering a league where we would have to travel to the likes of Berwick and Stranraer" – chief executive David Brown
A regionalised Pyramid system would appeal to a lot of Junior clubs as well.
Craig Graham of Spartans quoted in todays papers as saying:
"No junior club applied for this vacancy, which probably makes it easier for the pyramid to be based on the East of Scotland League and Highland League."
It doesn't take a genuis to see the flaws in that statement. Does anyone at Spartans live in the real world?
"No junior club applied for this vacancy, which probably makes it easier for the pyramid to be based on the East of Scotland League and Highland League."
It doesn't take a genuis to see the flaws in that statement. Does anyone at Spartans live in the real world?
QUOTE (Burnie_man @ Jul 4 2008, 11:44)
Craig Graham of Spartans quoted in todays papers as saying:
"No junior club applied for this vacancy, which probably makes it easier for the pyramid to be based on the East of Scotland League and Highland League."
It doesn't take a genuis to see the flaws in that statement. Does anyone at Spartans live in the real world?
"No junior club applied for this vacancy, which probably makes it easier for the pyramid to be based on the East of Scotland League and Highland League."
It doesn't take a genuis to see the flaws in that statement. Does anyone at Spartans live in the real world?
Maybe he forsees a mini league of Spartans, Preston Athletic, Edinburgh City and Cove Rangers playing each other 10 times. No one else gave a stuff about making a serious application.
There's always a danger of talking collectively about 'the Juniors' as it is 165 clubs. There are some very big clubs whose ambitions are much lower than some very small clubs. Some of the clubs going down the community club direction offer far more to Scottish football than those who throw money at players yet are watched by one man and his ubiquitous dog.
You have to realise the great frustration for clubs like Spartans and Preston (thrice applicants, thrice came close). They want solutions to their goal: join the SFL. Clearly Gordon Smith's plan for a Nationwide Conference doesn't really fulfil that, as it would be impossible to operate it (and persuade the SFL to link up to it) unless it was massively subsidised. However, the idea of taking the existing senior leagues (possibly with the southern two becoming a Lowland League) fits the desire of these ambitious clubs, because it is an environment in which they could operate. OK the SFL would have to undergo a sea-change in attitude to link up to it - but it is logistically possible.
Compare that to the ideal position - three regions, junior and senior - and you can see that the one involving the juniors is considerably more 'pipe dream' in the eyes of ambitious non-league seniors. The challenge is whether all the stakeholders could agree to a set-up which satisfies all.
Compare that to the ideal position - three regions, junior and senior - and you can see that the one involving the juniors is considerably more 'pipe dream' in the eyes of ambitious non-league seniors. The challenge is whether all the stakeholders could agree to a set-up which satisfies all.
QUOTE (HibeeJibee @ Jul 4 2008, 12:45)
You have to realise the great frustration for clubs like Spartans and Preston (thrice applicants, thrice came close). They want solutions to their goal: join the SFL. Clearly Gordon Smith's plan for a Nationwide Conference doesn't really fulfil that, as it would be impossible to operate it (and persuade the SFL to link up to it) unless it was massively subsidised. However, the idea of taking the existing senior leagues (possibly with the southern two becoming a Lowland League) fits the desire of these ambitious clubs, because it is an environment in which they could operate. OK the SFL would have to undergo a sea-change in attitude to link up to it - but it is logistically possible.
Compare that to the ideal position - three regions, junior and senior - and you can see that the one involving the juniors is considerably more 'pipe dream' in the eyes of ambitious non-league seniors. The challenge is whether all the stakeholders could agree to a set-up which satisfies all.
Compare that to the ideal position - three regions, junior and senior - and you can see that the one involving the juniors is considerably more 'pipe dream' in the eyes of ambitious non-league seniors. The challenge is whether all the stakeholders could agree to a set-up which satisfies all.
Hibee you're usually sensible but the bit I've highlighted suggests a departure from the norm.
It is completely impractical to merge the East and South leagues. Would ANY South sides take promotion? Threave nearly went out of business trying to run an East side. As has been mentioned a million times on here, what happens if the side facing the trap door happens to be say Dumbarton? Do you seriously expect they could survive financially with away days to Edinburgh & the Borders, in some cases to play teams on public parks? They'd be as well joining the SJFA as the travelling would be much reduced and they'd get away supports coming to them in three figures from Pollok, Arthurlie and Auchinleck to name three certainties.
It's up to clubs like Spartans to push for real change otherwise they'll just come across as chancer opportunists. They want a system that will get them up quickly, and damn those left behind. The 'Lowland League' will end up being the biggest white elephant in Scottish Football since Division 3/C Division. Impractical, ill-thought out, with a very limited shelf-life.
Jamie - sorry for any mis-interpretation, I meant it would be logistically possible for the SOSFL to come in below the EOS Premier (parallel to the EOS First), and possible for the oppertunity to exist for the winner of the SOSFL to rise into the EOS Premier. Of course that wouldn't mean (1) that any SOS teams would actually want to step-up; or (2) that any SFL teams would want to step down. Particularly, as you observed, the majority of SFL clubs based in central belt or in Angus.
It does look like a Lowland League, as a feeder to the SFL, would struggle to attract the crowds, the clubs (i.e. juniors), or the sponsorship required to satisfy SFL clubs. Others will disagree, tho.
It does look like a Lowland League, as a feeder to the SFL, would struggle to attract the crowds, the clubs (i.e. juniors), or the sponsorship required to satisfy SFL clubs. Others will disagree, tho.
QUOTE (cmontheloknow @ Jul 4 2008, 13:25)
It's up to clubs like Spartans to push for real change otherwise they'll just come across as chancer opportunists.
I think that particular cat was out of the bag a long time ago, they're looking to get promotion to the SFL any which way they can - that was apparent even before a vacancy occured after the "East Stirling stooshie", and their trips to Hampden.
Then again, maybe everyone's just "jealous" of them, as their Chief Executive would have us believe.
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