My opinions are well enough documented. It's time to hear what the Dundee fans have to say on the matter outside the intellectual vacuum they have created for themselves within Pie & Bovril. All quotes are from Dundee fans on www.thedees.co.uk.

I trust that as they themselves see fit to start threads on the subject, I am to be afforded the same privilege without another visit to the sin bin?

It certainly merits a thread of its own, rather than being hidden in the middle of countless pages of subterfuge on the part of the "Derry" faithful. It also brings a fresh angle, the lack of which was a complaint against previous threads which were littered with denials of the origin of the term. As for the other complaint of being "bored of this topic", you have to ask yourself why you clicked on the thread at all! Anyway, whether Dundee fans take this as an opportunity to thank me for bringing the truth to everyone's attention or simply carry on their revisionist tendencies remains to be seen...






















continued....

Wise words indeed, I think you will.

I'm still in love with the bottom (oo-er) part of your signature.

I'm afraid, as you can see, we've been having a torrid affair for the past few hours.

Has that guy got nothing better to do?

An obvious amount of research has been meticulously conducted by Hebridean, why? What's with this facination about Dundee FC?

A well researched and no doubt time consuming start to a thread Hebridean. Good post.

I haven't contributed to recent Dundee=sectarian? threads because I've seen it too many times before - same arguements from either side of the debate, same points being made, same lack of any real conclusin. I said my piece a while back and don't see any point in continuously repeating myself. But don't mistake the "bored of this debate" stance as a sign of acceptance of the accusation of being a bigot.

I don't blame you for raising the issue, you make a lot of valid points in threads of this nature.

I'm not sure if you are missing the point on the attitude and opinion on why the South Enclosure at Dens is called The Derry. You and a few others have laughed at Dundee fans explaining why The Derry took on it's name. I strongly believe that DFC fans talking about the dairy, D.R.E, and graffitti on the walls, are in no way making up excuses that avoid sectarian meaning. The truth is that there really is some doubt and debate in Dundee about why it's called The Derry. That's reflected on this forum.

I'm aware of Dundee's past. I know there was a Rangerseque vibe to Dundee's support in the 70's/early 80's. My opinion is that The Derry takes its name from the politics and dumb-ass bigotry of those times. Sad but probably true.

But the other arguements are common. They aren't made up to deflect anything. There is popular opinion among the Dundee support for all of them.

Having been a regular at Dens for 25 of my 30 years I can honestly say that the sectarian meaning behind The Derry/South Enclosure has evaporated. When we sing of being the Dundee Derry Boys it relates purely to being part of the "singing support" who congregate in a stand we call The Derry. It is in no way whatsoever a cry of support or reverence to any political movement or standpoint. It's origins may be highly suspect, but the name has lost all of it's initial connotations. It's just a manky old shed-end football stand that happens to be called The Derry.

I believe I speak for 95% of Dundee fans when I say we have no sectarian or bigoted ideals. Every support in the country has a 5% portion of idiots, it's something every good supporter must suffer. Regardless of the colours they wear, there are idiots everywhere. Such is society. It's not reserved for the west coast. Racists and bigots exist throughout the country.

I don't doubt that you will continue to berate us for what you believe to be bigotry, Hebridean. I don't doubt that this topic will be raised at regular intervals in the future. But believe me when I say that we're not sectarian mini-Huns.

So, what are you looking to achieve from the continuing debate?

An acceptance that our support suffered from a sectarian element in the past? You have that. Insight gave it to you, and whoever you quoted in your post did.

Do you want every Dundee poster on here to "confess"? Not going to happen, not least because there is genuine alternative opinion on The Derry's origins.

Will you continue to accuse us of being bigots even now when the sectarianism has phased out for 20 odd years? I can see your point, I really can, but I think you know (deeeep down!) that Dundee are not maintaining any sectarian agenda.

Peace.

Absolutely spot on, Dundeebarry! I don't think it will be too presumptious to say, that the vast majority of Dundee fans (or even opposition fans) would agree with your stance. Hebridean is one of those irritating characters in life, who thrive on attempting to be controversial. The fact he has spent so much time conductiong and assimilating information on this topic is, at the very least, rather pathetic.

It's up to Hebridean what he does with his time, and I think it's an interesting post with a decent new angle. It has also brought out one of the best and most balanced posts I have ever read on this board. The problem I have had throughout the whole debate is the Dundee fans unwillingness to recognise the connotations other people attach to their song regardless of the origins, but I guess that's up to you guys. I don't see any need for this thread to go further after Dundeebarry's response, so if all you Dundee fans stop posting then hopefully it will slide down the board.

It is upto Hebridean what he does with his time, but that does not stop me believing what he does with it, in this situation, is pathetic. It is pathetic, but you are correct, Dundeebarry's post should be the end of this continuous debate.

I applaud your signature sir. You have insight. And yet you call the highlighting of the serious issue of sectarianism, condoned by your fans, as pathetic?

Let's put this debate to bed now. I call on all Dunde fans, in the light if this evidence, to ditch the name Derry, and stop the sectarian chants.

The best post I have read on P&B since I joined here.

Another mind numbingly boring thread about bigotry from a consistently boring poster trying to infect the board with HIS ideas about bigotry 10/10 for the work that must have went in to compiling his original post but a very poor 1/10 for the content which are mostly snippets taken from a Dee supporters forum a great deal of which are taken totally out of context...................Isay to Hebridean and his misguided hingers on go get a life !....OUR ANCESTRAL HOME WILL NOT CHANGE AND WE DO NOT HAVE SECTARIAN CHANTS

Ban for trolling, no?

No.

There's f**k all doubt and you know it.

There's fack all doubt, you're right, but this isn't 1970. Also the context in which it is used is different.

Close this thread and ban OP for trolling.

I agree totally that the context is different now - but the legacy remains. That's the only problem. I don't think that Dundee are a sectarian/bigoted club in any way these days but this is a holdover that they do not need - and its origins are clear.

Just like the national anthem then!! Should that be dropped also???

I sit in the Derry, I'm from Dundee, I'm male: I am a Dundee Derry Boy.

Badge of honour as far as I'm concerned.

I think the Scottish national anthem should be 'What's Your Flava' by Craig David, so, aye.

Well avoided!!

I'm deadly serious.

Also what are the 'origins' of the national anthem that you're alluding to?

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King. Words from the British national anthem.

And here's me thinking that the anthem was God Save the Queen

And at the time the of this verse it was the king.

So, we are no longer 'at the time' of this verse. Yet a National Anthem is still sung. Which suggests that the National Anthem 'at this time' *doesn't* include the verse.

As has been posted above it is the origins of "DERRY" that is causing all the problems so surely the same would apply here the origin is still the same even if the verse has been dropped it was still associated with the song.

I think that's fair comment. Despite the fact that the offending verse will not have been performed in (probably) centuries, it was, at best, ignorant of (non-rebellious) Scots sensibilities.

When did I say, the serious issue of sectarianism was pathetic?

What I said was, the amount of time taken by Hebridean to assimilate and conduct this research is pathetic! We all know the score with 'Dundee's' sectarianism; does the fact that the majority of our fans not even know what the origins of 'Derry' are referring to, highlight that we are not sectarian?

My signature is based on realism. Dundee being sectarian is not; Dundee supporters who grow up singing about the "Dundee Derry" does not make them or indeed the club, sectarian. They just don't have a clue what they are singing about.

No.

For example, I guarantee you the vast majority of Rangers fans have no idea what the Fenian movement actually was.

Dundee Derry Bingo

Hebs, check
Fast Action, check
Swampy, check
HB, check

Oooh, I just need Captain Sensible for a full house!!

Just close this shit Stewarty, go on, you know you want to really

Same could be said about the majority of Celtic and Rangers fans. Most of them know sweet FA about Ulster and Ireland.

When Hebridean has asked the same question over and over again, then it'll be closed.

As it is, it's fanastic point-and-laugh material. Imagine trawling through a forum of a team you don't support just to try and regurgitate a point that hardly anyone gives a fish's tit about.

Carry on....

Can somebody just cut and paste dundeebarry's post every time this subject arises?
I don't think there's anything to be added to that.

The sort of funny aspect is that the only real reason he's given to change is so that we don't offend him and his fastidious mates.

Now that's a really strong selling point, no?

Oh - and another funny thing is that 95% of the Dees support probably never read this site, and have no idea how offensive these west coasters find their behaviour, and have no idea that they're propagating sectarianism. They don't know the origins of the Derry stand, and they don't care. And if they did know, and realised how much it annoyed this weird little clique on P&B, they'd just sing it louder and longer.

Btw - any sectarian element (posing, rather than committed) there might have been in the Dees support had vanished by the time I started going regularly to Dens in 1980. Probably expired by the mid-70's?

Absolutely spot on mate. Great post.

Oh - I thought you were talking about the "Scottish" national anthem (insofar as one exists.)

I don't really have a massive opinion on GSTQ/K other than one of vague dislike.

Get a life you pathetic wee termite.

Chill... grab a tall, cold glass of milk from your nearest dairy

Possibly from the Dens Road End of town

Should there not be some Dundee fans in there as well? They are the ones that keep these threads going.

And now that it has been proven that they are holding onto a link to their sectarian past, will the mods continue in being complicit in the ways in which they protect the said Dundee fans?

Excellent.

You not bored yet?

It's the exact same song, when Prince William becomes King the only difference to the song will be God Save The King instead of Queen.
The song is entitled God Save The King/Queen and up until the queen we have now it was mostly God Save The King!

The Dundee fans are here introducing a red herring to this debate. The question that is before us now is this - Now that Hebridean has demonstrated that your support are keeping alive a link to your sectarian past, will you ditch the name "derry" and the song that is associated with it?

Oh yer a cheeky,cheeky wee monkey

Now stop that and dont be a silly BILLY.......Did ya see what i done there ...did ya ?

Look, its simple. Everyone knows the true sectarian origins of the "Dundee Derry Boys". The question is, why, knowing those sectarian origins, do the Dundee fans continue chanting it?

Fans of most other clubs - St. Mirren fans included - have long since abandoned singing "Hello, Hello" because of its association with sectarianism and Rangers. So even ignoring the Derry bit, why do the Dundee even continue singing this song?

Its a catchy little number favoured by Killie and Man U fans also

HOUSE!!!!