With this weekends fixtures heading for another wash out (at least in the West) and some teams not having played since November, is it time to consider some kind of winter break or change to the playing season.
Some clubs are looking at real financial hardship with no income for weeks

Junior football seems to see fixture pileup problems every year due to clubs being unable to play due to weather / waterlogged pitches etc. It is a bit daft some clubs not playing for months on end. I suppose if anything a winter shut down would put all clubs on a level playing field regarding how many competitive games they've had. But then again if you take a month / 6 weeks out of the season it could lead to worse fixture pileups come the end of the season.

Also I'm not sure if its practical to extend the season into the summer, when players will want to be away for their summer holidays.

And which month do you choose?



That's another stumbling block. Junior clubs rely to a large extent on player goodwill.

what about summer football? march to oct. e.g. surely this is an option worth looking at?

Junior football should definately be played in the summer. Its a farce during the winter, pitches are rotten at the best of times. Nobody wins, supporters have to stand in the freezing cold whilst two teams hump the ball up the park. Many if not most of junior surfaces are near impossible to play football. Attendances would probably go up as senior fans would have free saturdays. Players are on holidays at all times of the year now, we've missed a number of players through holidays already so I don't see it making much difference.

There was something in the Tayport programme about it actually being considered just now by the SJFA - it didn't seem tongue in cheek though I can't say I studied it too closely.

While I can understand having the Christmas and New Year weekends off - surely any other 'unused' weekends would only add to playing twice/thrice a week from March to June? Maybe play through July?

A winter break would be disasterous. The weather could be fine for a Saturday in late December early January yet in the middle of February it could wipe out a full card. Winter break is definately not the answer, its hard enough to squeeze fixtures in. An all round change is needed.

Why? I haven't heard many clubs complaining about the present system. If they didn't want to play so many games, they wouldn't have introduced all these local cups.

Most (all?) cups predate the current league set ups. Only 2 seasons ago, the two Lothians divisions (as was) had a league schedule of 16 games. The cups at that point filled out the season. Now that there has been reorganisation, the number of league games has increased by 50%. The number of games is more dependant on league structure than number of cups.

Which isn't to say that one or two shouln't be ditched

IMHO a few local cups should get dropped. With games piling up the way they are there is no need for some of them. It also without a doubt effects league standings if Lochee from last season is anything to go by. I remeber watching Soccer AM last year and they showed the EOS Super League which had Lochee playing 6 games less than everyone at the time.............they had a good laugh at it! How is a team meant to make up that kind of ground on the teams above them when it eventually comes to playing three times a week. Impossible i think.......

Think the Fife/Lothians and Fife/Tayside could be ditched, now that the East of Scotland cup covers the whole East region. As you say they preceded league reorganisation (and the fact that our record in these competitions is poor). |There were less games in the Fife league cup this season (games played to reach the final will be six instead of ten in previous years. ) I do feel that the local cups (ie all Fife, all Tayside, , all East region) cups should be retained .

Until a few weeks ago, some teams in the East of Scotland Premier had played 10 games - while Lothian Thistle had played 5. I've seen some teams on 11 or 12, and others on 5 or 6, previously.

Would Junior football be best to standardise on the following model: League Cup (i.e. with groups) opens the season; Regional Cup (straight KO); District Cup (straight KO); league, & Scottish cup.

I think that's the situation in the West SJFA currently - I know East SJFA have really struggled in recent years to get all their myriad of competitions played, especially with Fife & Lothians and Fife & Tayside Cups, and the cup involving Tayside and North SJFA teams. Seems a bit of a guddle!!

Try again?

Good set u. League cup at the start of the season allows managers to try things out and get rid of suspensions (good excuses if they get knocked out). I would only go for the two district cups because as a traditionalist I would hate to lose the history that the old trophies bring to the game.

That's what we have in the West and it works fine IMHO. We additionally have a League & Cup Winners Cup which is played once all the others have been resolved.

Its interesting to note that all multi-division regions (senior and junior) now have league cups, with group stages, at the start of the season. The size of the Highland League and SOSFL have so far prevented them adopting them - I don't think HFL ever will - but even SOSFL would likely have one, if they move to a two-division structure (as is mooted now and again, if they can get QotS & Gretna to enter reserve teams).

I've noticed this before, TBH I think its a wee bit pointless, but then again if the West juniors like it, then alls well and good. Btw - if a club wins 2 trophies, does 1 or both runners-up get in? Or is it only clubs to have got their hands on silverware, who enter?

Also, whatever happened to the SuperCup? It seemed a nice idea - was it abolished?

Precedence order for Cup

1. Super League Premier Division
2. West of Scotland Cup
3. Super League First Division
4. Ayrshire Cup
5. Central League Cup
6. Ayrshire Sectional League Cup
7. Central Sectional League Cup
8. Ayrshire District League
9. Central District League First Division
10. Central District League Second Division

Clubs qualify according to the Competition won, except, where a Club wins more than one competition, such Club will qualify as winners of the competition with the higher order of precedence.

Where this occurs the runners-up in the lower order of precedence Competition will qualify.

In all other circumstances Clubs will qualify in accordance with the Order of Precedence.

Don't mind the ET cup as its played as the season has ended, but even the west still has too many cups imo. Teams are punished to progressing - how is that fair. Two years ago we made the 1/4 finals of the Scottish and suffered badly finishing 8th or something when we were promotion contenders at one point. We could suffer the same fate again if we continue to progress and have a bit of bad luck in terms of playing games ie weather. I would keep the sectional, but scrap one of the league of wos cups. Its a total farce asking teams to play Saturday, Monday, Wednesday, Friday 4 games in 7 days! In fact due to Lanarks run in the scottish we ended up playing them 4 times in a row, twice in the cup and twice in the league! If we played over the summer games wouldn't be cancelled as much and we would be able to keep the cups. Until then I think at least 1 has to go.

The South of Scotland League Cup used to be a group stage tourney and was brought in to add fixtures. The Highland League Cup also used to be a group stages cup. I can't be bothered checking until when but it certainly was in 1995-96 - just picked up a random SNL Review.

The Fife/Lothians & Fife/Tayside Cups used to offer the attraction of big guns from adjacent regions being drawn against each other. But nowadays, the best clubs play each other in the league on a regular basis and the prestige associated with these competitions has faded. And I didn't really see the point of introducing the East of Scotland Cup in addition to the aforementioned trophies.

The Fife Cup and Cowdenbeath Cup certainly have long traditions going back decades, perhaps even a century or more. There was also the Laidlaw Shield, although it's easy to lose track of these local competitions as they have all been rebranded with sponsor's names which change frequently.

Aye my knowledge of it only goes back a decade or so. The size of these two leagues prohibits group stages now I presume (although the HFL hasn't been much smaller for a long time, so they obviously managed at some point). I also suspect they seem a bit pointless when you've only the one division - meeting same teams anyway. The EOSFL version used to be small groups (3 or 4) often divided geographically, buts its group of 6 now without any geographic criteria.

East of Scotland cup has always been there. Its just back to where it was 100 years ago when Fife and Dundee teams played in it.

Getting a bit off the subject here, I don't think the problem is how many cups or games there are but when they are being played.
You either close down for 2 months in winter and suffer the consequences of playing 2/3times week in spring/summer or change the playing season completely to a time when call offs are less likely.
As I said before, there are clubs who haven't played since November and are in danger of going defunct.
No income but still heat/light/wages to pay, ok for the bigger clubs but the death knell for the smaller ones.

totally agree with you comments. also how do clubs survive financialy if you dont get a saturday fixture at home for 7 weeks on the trot? try summer football!

If the clubs at the lower end of the scale depended on gate money they would be bust before August is out. Sponsorship and fund-raisers will provide the lions share of the income - and is a lot more postponment proof

I would suspect most Junior clubs, certainly those outside the top East and West divisions, will only earn a few hundred £ per match from gate receipts anyway. So its probably just a welcome bonus, and they get by with regular income from sponsors, social clubs, fund-raising and such like. You could say that, in non-league football, for 90% of the clubs anyway, fans are actually unimportant in terms of their contribution by attending matches and paying.

I can assure you Sandy, it's as hard for the bigger clubs to get by without income as it is for the smaller ones. We might have bigger crowds, but wages are bigger too and most clubs will push their income:expenditure ratio as far as they can. No income = no wages!

At the Lok, I'd estimate that our gross income at the gate covers about half of our annual costs such as wages, taxes, rates, ground maintenance etc. It's not cheap playing in the City of Glasgow!

It is a serious problem when it comes to many junior clubs,possibly due to the view that junior football is semi pro. Other groups perhaps get better sponsership due to being (AMATURE CLUBS) BUT IT IS A WIDE SPREAD PROBLEM.The death of any club is unnacceptable, under any conditions.

Would it not be better to pay players in lump sums (or maybe a base rate, topped up by lump sums)? Thus avoiding cash flow problems. Or do you do that anyway currently?

Pre-PAYE, a number of Junior clubs issued players with a one off payment in the close season. In those days, only a few years ago, the player was considered to be self employed and had to declare his own earnings to the taxman. They were, on the whole, not doing it. That's led to PAYE.

However, in today's climate, if a player receives his contracted money in a lump sum, National Insurance would be applied to the whole lot and it would also be whacked for tax as all of the big Junior clubs are PAYE. Just now, any weekly income has to be above £96 (or at least it was last I checked) to have NI applied. A player would be worse off accepting a lump sum payment and as he's not obliged to, he won't.

Dropping down the way, I'd guess at gate income being around the 15%-20% mark for us.




Depends on the players payments to a certain extent. We can pay players in 3 or 4 installments without breaking the PAYE rules - which can alleviate cash flow

The modification to retention (fee based on weekly wage + signing on fee within parameters) makes it fairly clear what players have been on per year if the fee between clubs becomes public knowledge. In the top level of the West Region, at a variety of clubs, basic weekly wages seem to vary from the £20-£30 mark to £100 or so in exceptional cases, with the likes of M£dda being an awful lot higher.

As Jamie says, the new PAYE rules curtail that to a certain extent but my club don't pay lump sums any more like many others, only a straight weekly wage which was originally thought would ease cash flow through the season.
However, with no games for weeks on end it kinda negates the original plan.
Gate money is not the majority of income for us (as is also the case for many other clubs) but when you add loss of income from food/drink/programmes/raffles etc etc it is a big problem for those clubs who dont have major sponsors and little else in the way of income.

And Jamie, I take your point, it is all relative in cash and size terms.
Is it harder for a well supported Superleague team to raise 3k in a month to pay wages with no games or some of the smaller district league teams to raise £300?

I know of one team who is only surviving thanks to the players agreeing to play for nothing until the club gets some money in and I suspect there are others in the same boat.
Somethings gotta give at some stage

At the end of the day Sandy, no games means no gate income, or the other things like programme and pie hut sales so while I don't know if it's harder or not, it's certainly no easier. We also do a lottery but no games means a huge drop in ticket sales as a lot will be casual purchases on matchday.

A club will always push its budget constraints.

So if we played at a time of the year when there was less chance of postponements, we wouldn't even be having this discussion!!

I don't know... a lack of management of the fixture list can lead to teams endlessly being sent away.

For example, Glenafton's last 3 home games prior to last weekend: 13/10/07, 1/12/07, 8/12/07

Clubs who depend on gate money will be able to recoup lost revenue at the end of the season when they might be playing three or four times a week. So if they manage their cash flow effectively, it shouldn't be a major problem to face a barren spell in the winter.

Certainly in Fife, the junior clubs get better crowds for midweek games in May and June since a lot of fans of senior football turn up to these matches on spec.

So in effect, they are depending heavily on summer football at the moment.

true. every time there's a stabbing or a fight at an old firm game, thistle are required to pay for more policing at our first division home matches just because we're in the same city as the filth.

Unfortunately West Region crowds seem to plummet when it comes to midweek games.

tainly in Fife, the junior clubs get better crowds for midweek games in May and June since a lot of fans of senior football turn up to these matches on spec.

So in effect, they are depending heavily on summer football at the moment.


I agree again but you have highlighted another benifit of summer fitba. During periods ,like now with no cash flow at the gates, it is a major concern, bills have to be paid, basic running costs i.e. power, wages, running costs exetera .overdraught facilities will be taking a hammering I would think. Is my assumtion correct?

I agree again but you have highlighted another benifit of summer fitba. During periods ,like now with no cash flow at the gates, it is a major concern, bills have to be paid, basic running costs i.e. power, wages, running costs exetera .overdraught facilities will be taking a hammering I would think. Is my assumtion correct?
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Those who have overdraft facilities with the bank are certainly using them to their maximum (which is another unplanned cost in itself)

Beith's crowds certainly drop when it comes to midweek games. Rain and cold weather certainly keep a portion of people away, but that would have been the case during last summer as well

Summer is also a good time for the pitch to recover and for people to work/improve on the pitch/ground. The volunteers would dwindle from the small numbers already, never mind minimise the available time to do the work.

Thing is due to midweek game revenue (at least in our case) being down from Saturday games, it just means if games aren't played earlier in the year it is lost money so cashflow management wouldn't really apply.

exactly......... this is rubbish! the last home game i saw was november f.f.s. wake up peeple its no ice hockey...FFS.

Well, what astounded me was the news that at the last delegates meeting of the West Region, there was very little support for a winter break or summer football.
There must be a lot of clubs happy to waste Saturday mornings waiting for referees to state the bleedin obvious and declare pitches unplayable.
Still, at least the local bakers are makin a fortune in pie sales and the referees in inspection fees

The arguments against summer football at the lower levels are clear, in my view, & against it:

(1) the season would have to stretch February-November inclusive anyway, thus leaving it open to disruption by weather anyway - & how could it over run, if December is closed season;

(2) clubs would find it difficult to grow or work on pitches in closed season, since its in winter'

(3) attendances may be hit, as people have far more leisure activities, holidays, culturual and social events to attend during the summer months. Many clubs rely on gate receipts, I expect.

(4) players want to take holidays with their family in summer. How can they if playing football?

we dont need a vote on a winter shutdown.the rose have had theirs