Why is it that when 90 % of teams go to play an away game they play a different formation and tactics ( ie loads of men behind the ball and hit on the break.)
Other than the home team most likely having the majority of the support what other advantage do they have?
For example a team like Brechin might have a go when they play Raith at home and end up beating them but when they play them away sit and hit on the break and be happy to take a point and possibly steal three.
Or likewise a team like Berwick might be the same when they play for example County.
(These are just examples folks before I start getting called all the arrogant Raith fans under the sun.)
Sop whats the difference between home and away matches folks cause as far as I can see it is still the same 2 teams on the pitch regardless of where it is played.
Thoughts?
Full Version: Home Advantage
i see what your saying but we are much better away from home which is strange!!
I've never understood this either. It's not like you're playing in some other country or anything. Particularly at this level where crowds aren't exactly massive anyway!
A familiar playing surface, no large travel distance so home players are fresher etc.
QUOTE (GeeJay @ Jan 18 2008, 09:22) 
A familiar playing surface, no large travel distance so home players are fresher etc.
We play in Scotland not China
Home or away, it makes no difference to the Mighty Gers 
There's all kinds of psychology comes into play, crowd expectations and crowd response and stuff. And that affects the ref too, over the piece home teams do get more decisions going their way, which obviously helps - I'm sure there have been studies to confirm that, though you knew it anyway.
QUOTE (Yoss @ Jan 18 2008, 09:51)
I have some issues with his mathematical modelling, granted, the actual statistical analysis is sound but I don't like the basic model. It's far from robust and needs a hell of a lot more testing.
The problem is that Design of Experiment statistical modelling that those guys used is useful for finding which factors change the result. However, they don't tell you why those factors change the result and his conclusions can only really be supported by a much wider analysis covering more factors than he represented.
Home Advantage?
What the feck is that?
What the feck is that?
QUOTE (CALDERON @ Jan 18 2008, 10:52)
Home Advantage?
What the feck is that?
What the feck is that?
In our case it is the part I mentioned about being stung on the break for all 3 points after having the majority of the game a lot of the time.
But they is the rules and we need to find a way of breaking teams down, its up to us.
QUOTE (renton @ Jan 18 2008, 10:36)
I have some issues with his mathematical modelling, granted, the actual statistical analysis is sound but I don't like the basic model. It's far from robust and needs a hell of a lot more testing.
The problem is that Design of Experiment statistical modelling that those guys used is useful for finding which factors change the result. However, they don't tell you why those factors change the result and his conclusions can only really be supported by a much wider analysis covering more factors than he represented.
The problem is that Design of Experiment statistical modelling that those guys used is useful for finding which factors change the result. However, they don't tell you why those factors change the result and his conclusions can only really be supported by a much wider analysis covering more factors than he represented.
Well you caught me out there, I didn't actually read it in any detail first, it was just the first such study that came up on a google. There other studies reaching much the same conclusion, the one I was thinking of was a German one from a few years back.
QUOTE (Yoss @ Jan 18 2008, 11:02)
Well you caught me out there, I didn't actually read it in any detail first, it was just the first such study that came up on a google. There other studies reaching much the same conclusion, the one I was thinking of was a German one from a few years back.
The main problem I find with these studies is the supposed affect of the crowd on referees. In effect they try to use statistical analysis to show how an individuals actions will be affected - which is plainly bad science.
No meaning to rain on yer parade guys but when I asked the question it was more to do with players and managers than anything rather than refs.
Why do teams who would normally attack at home against a certain other team not feel they can do the same when they play against the same opposition away from home?
Why do teams who would normally attack at home against a certain other team not feel they can do the same when they play against the same opposition away from home?
QUOTE (bobbykdy @ Jan 18 2008, 11:15)
No meaning to rain on yer parade guys but when I asked the question it was more to do with players and managers than anything rather than refs.
Why do teams who would normally attack at home against a certain other team not feel they can do the same when they play against the same opposition away from home?
Why do teams who would normally attack at home against a certain other team not feel they can do the same when they play against the same opposition away from home?
That's easy... because it's what they've always done and no one has had the sense to question it. An interesting counterpoint are derby matches which both sides approach as a 'home' game and go at each other hammer and tongs, yet this is an isolated example that doesn't carry over into regular games.
Think of the great teams, those are the ones who were scared of no one and always went out to win no matter what.
It's all just blinkered thinking really, 150 years of conventional footballing wisdom that says home advantage is somehow important when I would argue, these days, physically, it counts for nothing - yet in players minds is like a huge weight around their necks.
Raith, by the way, suffer from counter 'home' advantage.
QUOTE (renton @ Jan 18 2008, 11:42)
That's easy... because it's what they've always done and no one has had the sense to question it. An interesting counterpoint are derby matches which both sides approach as a 'home' game and go at each other hammer and tongs, yet this is an isolated example that doesn't carry over into regular games.
Think of the great teams, those are the ones who were scared of no one and always went out to win no matter what.
It's all just blinkered thinking really, 150 years of conventional footballing wisdom that says home advantage is somehow important when I would argue, these days, physically, it counts for nothing - yet in players minds is like a huge weight around their necks.
Raith, by the way, suffer from counter 'home' advantage.
Think of the great teams, those are the ones who were scared of no one and always went out to win no matter what.
It's all just blinkered thinking really, 150 years of conventional footballing wisdom that says home advantage is somehow important when I would argue, these days, physically, it counts for nothing - yet in players minds is like a huge weight around their necks.
Raith, by the way, suffer from counter 'home' advantage.
Thats my thoughts too, its all psychological.
If I was ever a manager (unlikely but indulge me) I would set up my team to play exactly the same way against one particular team regardless of whether it was home or away. These tactics would then possibly be changed to suit the opposition each week.
As a result I'd probably get gubbed 10-0 every week but ho-hum.
IMO managers and players need to get this one sorted out and I think football could be a lot better and more entertaining for all.
Interesting topic, and it's something that I've often thought about. I've a feeling I might have written an article about this for something before, although I can't remember what I concluded in that.
Although there are always exceptions, such as Raith Rovers being better away just now in the same way as Killie were for a number of seasons about 5 years ago, and also that ridiculous run Cowden went on around 1993 where they weent over a year without a home win before finally beating Arbroath (I think it was Arbroath anyway...), home advantage is something that is prevalent in all levels of football, and indeed through all other team sports as well.
Statistical analysis may not give the reason for it, but it does at least illustrate the huge effect it can have. I can't remember the precise ratio for home wins to away wins, but I can certainly remember being surprised that it was quite as high. Of course I'd exoected taht it would show more home wins than away wins, but the degree of disparity was surprising.
It would be interesting to compare the ratios for all of the Scottish divisions, to see if the advantage diminishes in the lower divisions compared to the SPL for example, which would probably indicate that the pressure applied on referees has a significant influence, since you'd expect this to be less of a factor in a crowd of 400 than a crowd of 40000.
Forgetting referees and the pressure applied though, there's a lot of factors that influence the two teams as well, and in most instances, it can surely only be a psychological thing. You go out on your home park, you're familiar with it. I know it shouldn't really matter as effectively you're only really playing a game of football on a bit of grass and the surrounds shouldn't matter, but I think most people are more comfortable in any situation if they do something in circumstances and a location with which they are familiar. Wee things must play a part - sitting in the same place in the changing room, etc that you can do at home but not away.
Tactics? They matter in the sense that teams are generally more conservative away from home, but I thihnk this is probably as a result of the other stuff. Maangers know that away games are difficult, and I think it's all these wee mental things that combine to make them so.
I'm not sure if the backing a team gets from the fans matters as much as is often made out. At EEP, the atmosphere is dreadful and has been for years. It's far better away, and indeed it's pretty common for the small group of away fans to make more noise in backing hteir team than the bigger group of home fans.
It's hard to define it, but it surely just has to be a mixture of a variety of things that come together to make away games far more difficult in general.
Although there are always exceptions, such as Raith Rovers being better away just now in the same way as Killie were for a number of seasons about 5 years ago, and also that ridiculous run Cowden went on around 1993 where they weent over a year without a home win before finally beating Arbroath (I think it was Arbroath anyway...), home advantage is something that is prevalent in all levels of football, and indeed through all other team sports as well.
Statistical analysis may not give the reason for it, but it does at least illustrate the huge effect it can have. I can't remember the precise ratio for home wins to away wins, but I can certainly remember being surprised that it was quite as high. Of course I'd exoected taht it would show more home wins than away wins, but the degree of disparity was surprising.
It would be interesting to compare the ratios for all of the Scottish divisions, to see if the advantage diminishes in the lower divisions compared to the SPL for example, which would probably indicate that the pressure applied on referees has a significant influence, since you'd expect this to be less of a factor in a crowd of 400 than a crowd of 40000.
Forgetting referees and the pressure applied though, there's a lot of factors that influence the two teams as well, and in most instances, it can surely only be a psychological thing. You go out on your home park, you're familiar with it. I know it shouldn't really matter as effectively you're only really playing a game of football on a bit of grass and the surrounds shouldn't matter, but I think most people are more comfortable in any situation if they do something in circumstances and a location with which they are familiar. Wee things must play a part - sitting in the same place in the changing room, etc that you can do at home but not away.
Tactics? They matter in the sense that teams are generally more conservative away from home, but I thihnk this is probably as a result of the other stuff. Maangers know that away games are difficult, and I think it's all these wee mental things that combine to make them so.
I'm not sure if the backing a team gets from the fans matters as much as is often made out. At EEP, the atmosphere is dreadful and has been for years. It's far better away, and indeed it's pretty common for the small group of away fans to make more noise in backing hteir team than the bigger group of home fans.
It's hard to define it, but it surely just has to be a mixture of a variety of things that come together to make away games far more difficult in general.
QUOTE (Socks @ Jan 18 2008, 12:00)
Interesting topic, and it's something that I've often thought about. I've a feeling I might have written an article about this for something before, although I can't remember what I concluded in that.
Although there are always exceptions, such as Raith Rovers being better away just now in the same way as Killie were for a number of seasons about 5 years ago, and also that ridiculous run Cowden went on around 1993 where they weent over a year without a home win before finally beating Arbroath (I think it was Arbroath anyway...), home advantage is something that is prevalent in all levels of football, and indeed through all other team sports as well.
Statistical analysis may not give the reason for it, but it does at least illustrate the huge effect it can have. I can't remember the precise ratio for home wins to away wins, but I can certainly remember being surprised that it was quite as high. Of course I'd exoected taht it would show more home wins than away wins, but the degree of disparity was surprising.
It would be interesting to compare the ratios for all of the Scottish divisions, to see if the advantage diminishes in the lower divisions compared to the SPL for example, which would probably indicate that the pressure applied on referees has a significant influence, since you'd expect this to be less of a factor in a crowd of 400 than a crowd of 40000.
Forgetting referees and the pressure applied though, there's a lot of factors that influence the two teams as well, and in most instances, it can surely only be a psychological thing. You go out on your home park, you're familiar with it. I know it shouldn't really matter as effectively you're only really playing a game of football on a bit of grass and the surrounds shouldn't matter, but I think most people are more comfortable in any situation if they do something in circumstances and a location with which they are familiar. Wee things must play a part - sitting in the same place in the changing room, etc that you can do at home but not away.
Tactics? They matter in the sense that teams are generally more conservative away from home, but I thihnk this is probably as a result of the other stuff. Maangers know that away games are difficult, and I think it's all these wee mental things that combine to make them so.
I'm not sure if the backing a team gets from the fans matters as much as is often made out. At EEP, the atmosphere is dreadful and has been for years. It's far better away, and indeed it's pretty common for the small group of away fans to make more noise in backing hteir team than the bigger group of home fans.
It's hard to define it, but it surely just has to be a mixture of a variety of things that come together to make away games far more difficult in general.
Although there are always exceptions, such as Raith Rovers being better away just now in the same way as Killie were for a number of seasons about 5 years ago, and also that ridiculous run Cowden went on around 1993 where they weent over a year without a home win before finally beating Arbroath (I think it was Arbroath anyway...), home advantage is something that is prevalent in all levels of football, and indeed through all other team sports as well.
Statistical analysis may not give the reason for it, but it does at least illustrate the huge effect it can have. I can't remember the precise ratio for home wins to away wins, but I can certainly remember being surprised that it was quite as high. Of course I'd exoected taht it would show more home wins than away wins, but the degree of disparity was surprising.
It would be interesting to compare the ratios for all of the Scottish divisions, to see if the advantage diminishes in the lower divisions compared to the SPL for example, which would probably indicate that the pressure applied on referees has a significant influence, since you'd expect this to be less of a factor in a crowd of 400 than a crowd of 40000.
Forgetting referees and the pressure applied though, there's a lot of factors that influence the two teams as well, and in most instances, it can surely only be a psychological thing. You go out on your home park, you're familiar with it. I know it shouldn't really matter as effectively you're only really playing a game of football on a bit of grass and the surrounds shouldn't matter, but I think most people are more comfortable in any situation if they do something in circumstances and a location with which they are familiar. Wee things must play a part - sitting in the same place in the changing room, etc that you can do at home but not away.
Tactics? They matter in the sense that teams are generally more conservative away from home, but I thihnk this is probably as a result of the other stuff. Maangers know that away games are difficult, and I think it's all these wee mental things that combine to make them so.
I'm not sure if the backing a team gets from the fans matters as much as is often made out. At EEP, the atmosphere is dreadful and has been for years. It's far better away, and indeed it's pretty common for the small group of away fans to make more noise in backing hteir team than the bigger group of home fans.
It's hard to define it, but it surely just has to be a mixture of a variety of things that come together to make away games far more difficult in general.
You just fucking did!
QUOTE (renton @ Jan 18 2008, 12:03)
You just fucking did!
Bring back the 2-3-5 formation!
Make it mandatory!
Make it mandatory!
QUOTE (bobbykdy @ Jan 18 2008, 11:15)
No meaning to rain on yer parade guys but when I asked the question it was more to do with players and managers than anything rather than refs.
Why do teams who would normally attack at home against a certain other team not feel they can do the same when they play against the same opposition away from home?
Why do teams who would normally attack at home against a certain other team not feel they can do the same when they play against the same opposition away from home?
The issues are related.
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