Why do we have two different associations - especially considering the fact juniors were bigger and I presume (maybe not) closer to the senior standard? Was there a clash of personalities at the top or something?

I'll defer to Cmontheloknow for the deep, insightful summary, since he knows far more about Junior football than I'll possibly ever know - but from my vague knowledge, I think you can summarise it as follows: at the end of the 19th Century, clubs in the 'lower rank' of football in Scotland (who were typically referred to as 'juniors', as opposed to those bigger clubs who were their 'senior') began to formalise themselves into their own, seperate associations and cups. This was of little consequences. Later, however, they began to restrict these cups to only their members, and around this time they also began restricting the ability of players, who had at some time in their careers been senior, to participate. Thus slowly a gap began to open up.

Once leagues began to be formed (during the 1890s), it was natural for Junior clubs to have different leagues to Senior clubs. And so, in effect by accident, the great 'divide' across our game was formed. And its still with us today. No other country in the world, as far as I know, has elected to retain, or even form, a division between clubs of the same level in their football.

The Juniors themselves split - into Juniors and Intermediates - during the 1920s, and were reunited during the 1930s. The dispute was over the way in which players could be transferred to Seniors. I believe (don't quote me) the current Junior West of Scotland Cup, is (in terms of the piece of silverware) the old Scottish Intermediate Cup. So nice wee bit of history there.

There is junior and intermediate football, as names, in the Ireland's, but here it refers simply to grade of play - i.e. top teams and divisions are senior, middle intermediate, bottom junior.

Remembered this link: http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_footb...m?curpageid=410

Its a bit old (they have 3 regions now, not 6) but gives a basic summary of the quirky origins.

Which, of course, begs the question - how the differerence in 'rank' presented itself. Was it using public parks rather than having a fixed venue? Teams being offshoots of other social clubs rather than primarily football clubs? Just being a bit shite and being refused fixtures? Again, CTLK will be able to shed some light on these matters

Looking at newspapers from before the SFL started, I got the idea that at that time, someone like Hearts were a 'senior' team; apart from cup competitions they only played other 'senior' teams and English touring sides. Someone like e.g. Bo'ness were a 'secondary senior' or just 'secondary' team, and could get friendly fixtures against Hearts' 2nd team; while the likes of Leith Thistle got fixtures against Hearts Valleyfield XI or Bo'ness's 2nd team, and were classed as 'junior'.

Juniors in the 19th century were way below the levels of the big teams, but they occasionally got cup-ties against them, and that's where you get scores like Hearts 21 Anchor 0. Juniors formed local associations/cups, and later leagues, to ensure they could get meaningful competition against clubs of their own level.

Of course the original juniors split up as well. Those that didn't believe in paying footballers formed amateur associations, and some of the so-called 'light juniors' renamed themselves juveniles.

As more and more secondary senior teams were absorbed into the SFL structure, those that remained in local non-Junior leagues became 'seniors', though I don't think they were officially called that.

Once the SJFA was formed, there was no opportunity for senior to play junior at competitive level until the Girvan loophole; and (no disrespect - they gave City a hard time), no-one thinks that Girvan are typical of the best of the Juniors.

The lines are blurring all the time. Spartans have hammered lots of SFL teams in recent years. Rose hammered Spartans. City have beaten, but not hammered, Spartans this season, and were unlucky to lose to Shire. If Rose had got a team a bit further down the SFL, they might well have won on Saturday. The best of the juniors are at least equal to the best of the seniors.

Getting back to what BTID actually asked, there aren't two associations, there are loads of them - formed, in the usual Scottish manner, because of the beliefs and self-interest (often the same thing) of the people who shout the loudest.

Slight tangent - the junior-v-senior argument has become very bitter this season. Junior club supporters on the net have been slagging senior sides for years; I remember on some other forum, about 5 years ago, some skidmark posting a 30-line sneer about the 'East of Scotland Amateurs' because his shower had beaten an ESL first division team in a pre-season friendly.

When Newton Stewart and St Cuthbert Wanderers were beaten, the slagging in some quarters went way into the region of disrespectful, and when Dalbeattie Star played to avoid a severe doing from a quality team, the air was thick with flying dummies. All these places are within a few miles of Dumfries, so is anyone surprised that Steve Tosh replied in kind?

On a slightly unrelated note, I notice you are an Edinburgh City fan. I always wondered do Edinburgh City play at the ground which has a two sided stand in the middle, one facing the football pitch and the other facing a rugby pitch (which also has some terracing behind one of the posts). I often pass this ground on the train from Glasgow through Edinburgh, the train goes right past it, a few minutes before passing Tynecastle on the other side of the track.

Also once you get past Edinburgh (on your way south) there is what looks like a stand being built near a farm field, possibly just before Preston (as in the Lothian Preston). It definitely looks like a stand though has been there in basic structure form (just the steel girders) for quite some time. Anyone know anything about this? Did I read somewhere that Spartans were building a new ground but had run out of money so the prohect had stalled?

Should add that I think the ground which I wondered if Edinburgh City play at is perhaps joined onto the other side of Boroughmuir Rugby Clubs ground?

That steel girder structure will be eventually the new Wallyford dog track stadium. It's been like that for a very long time , actually forgot why it came to a stand still, some planning problem. The Spartans project is now in progress, it's just along the road from the City Park ground behind the Morrisons store across the road from City Park.

Im not sure which ground youre talking about but its not Edinburgh City's, they play at Meadowbank. I have my own question on Edinburgh City as well, I read somewhere than on their merger with Postal United in the mid 80's City briefly returned to their old ground City Park. Is this true and if so why did they leave? Was there ever a groundswell amongst the City people to try and get back to City Park full-time? Its a real shame that ground is being bulldozed.

Oh yes of course, not Edinburgh City then, the junior side Edinburgh United. I'm sure it's the Boroughmuir Rugby ground.

Edinburgh United Juniors play out near the barracks. It is not their ground you have passed on the train.

You have passed Boroughmuir RFC's new ground on the train, before you reach Tynecastle. The venue doesn't host football, just rugby (on the Main Pitch and pitches between the stand and railway) and hockey (on the pitches behind the stand). I've been to New Meggetland twice now, it is by far the best rugby stadium in the country - Murrayfield excepted!! - featuring a large Main Stand with space-age curved roof; a raised terrace and clubhouse behind one end; and a smaller, pitch-level terrace opposite the stand. Also has lights, electronic scoreboard etc.

The steel girders seen outside Prestonpans was to be the Victoria Stadium, greyhound racing venue. Having hit Roman archaelogy, then financial woes, its been like that for many years.

Edinburgh City do of course play at Meadowbank Stadium, near Easter Road, which for those of you interested is the largest in British non-league football (capacity of 16,000+ all seats).

Edinburgh Utd (Juniors) play at Paties Road, in the extreme SW of the city, near the barracks.

I would anticipate the sale of City Park vital to the ongoing finance of the Ainslie Park ground.

Even more oddly, City Park was in fact home of the old Edinburgh City (1920s-1940s).

Indeed, thats what I meant about them trying to get back home to their old ground! It was City who built the old stand (RIP) and named the place City Park in the first place. I had read they returned briefly to the ground around 86/87.....was just wondering if that was true and if so why did they move on.

I believe they started at Marine Drive (now home of Civil Service and Edinburgh Athletic) so maybe they were only ground-sharing at City Park, until they could find their own home? Another possibility is, to get into the SFA they would have needed to meet the membership criteria (which City Park didn't), so when Meadowbank came up, seized it?

I think they were up at Gilmerton for a few years before getting Meadowbank. Scrooge1928 should be able to clarify all this anyway.

Postal United (1966-1986) shared the Civil Service Sports ground at Muirhouse.

Edinburgh City started 1986/7 at Paties Road, sharing with Edinburgh United. However, many games were played on the 'outside pitch', adjacent to the main stadium, due to clashes with United home games.

In 89/90 the club tried to get use of the Ingliston Showground arena but were knocked back.

Around that time some home games were switched to Saughton Enclosure.

For 91/2 City moved to Fernieside, shared with Tollcross FC. This was the former location of Edinburgh Southern Harriers athletics track.

Midway through 95/6 City moved to Meadowbank.

Various home games since then have been played at other venues due to a variety of events at Meadowbank. Grounds used include City Park and St Marks Park.

Going back to the original question, there seems to be a fair few different answers, and some of what Hibee Jibee says is correct, while Scrooge also comes up with some good points.

The questions Millfield Marksman asks are about the size of it though, from what I've heard.

Many of the original Junior clubs formed as the football sections of Social Clubs. They were not out and out football clubs. The logic was they'd play each other. Associations formed in towns in the early 1880s, with perhaps the Greenock JFA being the first. Eventually a national Junior Association was formed to be the overseer in 1886. Junior football gradually took hold as the Senior leagues withered.

If we take a snapshot of football in the late 1880s, there were well over 200 clubs playing Senior football. League football was slow to take hold though. By 1891, Senior leagues were cropping up like Ayrshire, Eastern Alliance, Midland, Northern, Scottish Alliance and Scottish Federation, as well as the Scottish Division One.

These leagues continued to grow, as did the Scottish League, but as the Scottish League grew ever bigger, these minor Senior leagues shrank and eventually they all, bar the Highland league, established in 1893, died. The East of Scotland League formed in 1927 and the South of Scotland League as we know it was finally established in 1945.

Smaller Senior clubs were finding it quite hard to get by in the late 1890s. They couldn't get decent fixture lists. Maryhill were one who went from Senior to Junior, for that reason.

When the 3rd Division folded for the final time, most of the clubs in it either folded too or went Junior.

On the subject of Edinburgh City, where will they play if Meadowbank gets demolished? although admittedly this is looking less likely.

I'd never heard that City played at City Park in 1986/87, but I was a Meadowbank Thistle supporter until 1995 so I'm not too well versed in that period. For a number of years City have had to take advantage of other clubs' hospitality when the Stadium has been unavailable, and City Park is a regular "second-choice" ground, up to and including this season; maybe that's where the idea came from. Going by George Campbell's and Dave Beecroft's histories of the club, Prorege's summary is good.

Postal United's history is rather neglected, though, and they might have had a spell at City Park at one time. They certainly played home matches at Marine Drive, which City didn't.


Damn right. Even when we were standing in the rain and dog turds at Fernieside, ex-Thistle-now-City fans were plotting the return to Meadowbank. I was a long way from the inner circle at that time, but the club officials of the time must have performed wonders to outsmart the four or five other teams who were trying to get first use of the Stadium.

Because of the ludicrous price of land in the big cities, it's nigh on impossible to find ground for a new football park (although Spartans have achieved it). Rugby pitches and bloody golf courses are sacrosanct, of course, but apart from those the Council insist that every toxic waste site and flood plain be crammed with £200K+ flats rather than expand the city to take in a few dusty fields, which might allow a few square yards for a football ground.

I've watched football at Meadowbank for 30+ years now, and although it's a very very long way from being perfect it's still more comfortable than almost all of the EoSL, or the majority of junior grounds I've visited.


God knows. I believe the idea was to beg Edinburgh Leisure for shared use of the proposed new stadium at Sighthill. I know the papers were full of Edinburgh Rugby's confidence that the taxpayers were going to provide a new stadium for their sole use (some of their backers even lobbied to have the athletics track removed), but the artist's drawings clearly showed football as well as rugby markings.

I believe even if 'SkyscraperGate' gets the go ahead, there is still going to be an athletics track at Meadowbank as part of the sports centre. Whether this would have the spectator facilities to make it worthwhile staying is another matter of course. What would be good, would be if some of the cities different sports (rugby, football, cricket, hockey) were able to band together, to pool their cash and influence to utilise one site, with integrated and shared facilities. However, reality shows organisations like Boroughmuir RFC, Grange Cricket Club, Edinburgh Accies going it alone.

I have a feeling that Postal United may have spent a season or two playing at City Park in the mid 70s. Ferranti Thistle were the main tenants up to 1974, sharing with Hibs Third Team for a while. I'm sure Spartans didn't move from Craiglockhart to City Park until 1976/7, so it would have been 'vacant' in 74/5 and 75/6. Craigroyston moved there for 77/8 to share with Spartans.