http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/

Don't you feel a wee bit bumped at this?

He gets paid what we can only presume would be a reasonable wage to play for the sellik for a few months for the purpose of what ?[u]

All the trophies would have been won without him there and he prevented you sigining someone else that you might have got a decent return from.

Value for money ? Nae chance. He just fancied it on his CV and i'm afraid my green and white friends he took you for a ride.

Unfortunately these things happen – you cannot compensate for players missing a month or so through injuries or having to give the game up due to injuries.

He would have been an excellent influence on the team next season both playing wise and influential wise, but it’s not to be. A gamble certainly in the first place but a gamble worth taking.

Imperative now that we go out and spend money and get an established player or two.

Was it really a gamble worth taking?

He was signed primarily for the merchandising opportunities, granted, but did Celtic really pull in enough to make the 40k a week wages seem worth it?

As for the playing aspect, Keane is a footballing legend, but legends get old and injured. Regardless of his playing last season, Celtic would have won the SPL.

Of course it was a gamble worth taking. Strachan is building a team and has thus far got rid of the players who had decent European experience and that looks like continuing. Roy Keane was available, a player who has done it in Europe at the highest level, and who could be a very positive influence in a dressing room that is sorely lacking experience. Strachan clearly felt he could still perform on the pitch and I think in the majority of games he played in, he showed he can.

You are simply surmising by saying he was only signed for merchandise opportunities. If that’s the way we were operating, then there are plenty of other players who would have been more suitable signings.

As for 40k a week – I have no idea what he was paid – I have seen figures range from 20k to 50k.

Aye, maybe even the Scottish Cup as well

The majority of what games, though? In the SPL? Drop any former world-class player in the SPL (with the possible exception of Juninho, but people will debate whether or not he was ever world-class) and they'll do well. The CL is the real test of these players and we will never get to see how that panned out.



Like who?

Dion Dublin?

Even if I concede that his unquestionably vast European experience was a factor, you have to admit, it's a bit precious that an Oirish legend suddenly decides to sign for his "boyhood heroes" just as his career is coming to a close. And just in time for a "testimonial." And the lucrative opportunities that that brings for all parties.



Well, 40k was what I had heard, but I'm more than willing to be corrected on it.

Either way, he won't have come cheap.

- Well obviously in the SPL.

- When I talk about more suitable signings if it was only merchandise we were after, then it is obvious that going after players from untapped markets would be more beneficial. It seems to be a recurrent theme though. We only signed Nakamura apparently because of merchandise and the same with Keane. Spin offs are natural, but I think it is wide of the mark to suggest that Gordon Strachan is signing players first and foremost due to marketing reasons.

- Roy Keane has since 2001 stated his desire to play for Celtic as have many other Irish born players. If someone of his talent and experience that wants to play for us is going, then I’d be disappointed if we didn’t seriously consider singing them.

- I don’t understand the relevance of your testimonial remark.

With Nakamura it was a bonus, but he's a good player... if his strengths are played to. Hopefully for Celtic they will be next season.



Agreed; he signs journeymen, unless he's given a big transfer fee.



Well, we'll agree to disagree



Even if they're completely past it?

I'd take the opposite tack. If I was a Celtic fan, I'd be wary of people issuing come-and-get-me remarks in the press. I'd rather judge a player on his current merits than his past.



It ties into the merchandise/profit issue. I doubt Celtic's involvement in the testimonial came free. If I'm wrong on this, let me know.

I said consider it. When things are being considered, his ability to still perform to a decent level would be taken into account as well as to whether he will be a positive addition to the team.

Roy Keane was due a testimonial for Man Utd and moves were afoot to have this against Celtic long before he joined us. That is hardly a surprise given that in the past ten years or so, we have played against them in Bryan Robsons, Brain McClairs and Ryan Giggs testimonials. He hardly had to sign for us to enable us to be involved in this game.

I think that signing summed up Celtic's wee club mentality. They allowed Keane to play them like a cheap violin.

They were delighted to get a guy too old and too unfit to play for Man Utd any more for a wee swansong. He basically insulted Celtic by saying years ago he'd like to finish his career there.

i.e. You are pish and I'd never consider playing for you whilst I am in my prime or close to it, but when my knees are giving in and I have nothing better on offer I will wander up and play for a few games, and be your top earner in the process.

I would have told him he could GTF. He should have been told if he wanted a chance to run out in the Hoops then he should have come when he still had something to offer.

Aye like Du Wei or the soon to depart Nakimura. It used to be that players were signed for their ability - not to sell DVDs on the other side of the world. Same as the Korean fella at Man Utd - you can't tell me there aren't better midfielders around England available?

As for Keane - imagine buying a Sellik jersey for 50 quid or whatever it is and by early June they're redundant. Keano the DVD should be short, after all, even his debut wouldn't be worth featuring.

Du Wei! I forgot about him. Yes, a clear attempt to tap int othe Chinese market.

Nakamura's good, though. And Park Ji-Sung was already playing at the top level and wasn't a bad signing.

If Due Wei was only signed for marketing purposes, can you please explain why he was not given the contract he was so looking for?

Of course Roy Keane was not going to join Celtic when he was in his prime. He was playing with arguably the biggest club in the World and playing at the top level for them.

Why does that therefore mean we should cut our nose off to spite our face? Gordon Strachan clearly thought Keane was a good addition to our squad and could do a job for us - so did I.

Because they still have to be half decent - you can't sell someone that doesn't play. The point I'm making is that they are signed despite not being any better than what is available locally. Celtic wanted to keep Du Wei but the Chinese club wanted cash as per the deal.

Of course there are spin offs with some players, but first and foremost they are signed due to their footballing ability. To suggest that Gordon Strachan has went out and bought players, using up his budget primarily because they may provide us with some bonus revenue is IMO well wide of the mark.

Nakamura is one of, if not the most naturally talented players I have seen at Celtic in my lifetime. To get a player of his ability for the fee we did was a superb piece of business.

Because you shouldn't be dictated to by Irish thugs, who are after a last pay day and a chance to say he played for Celtic.

Keane shafted you, by picking up a nice signing on fee and healthy weekly wage whilst contributing next to nothing towards your title win.

Face it - you were conned.

How on earth were we dictated to buy Roy Keane?

I have already attended to your other points several times over.

This may well be the first and last time I advocate reading the Sun, but if you look at Billy McNeil's column today, he - quite correctly - points out that if Keane had any genuine affinity towards Celtic he would have come two or three years ago, rather than last season when he was on his last legs.

Keane regarded Celtic as, and Celtic willingly acted as, a sort of footballing Eastbourne. A nice place to go to if you want to live out your days in relative comfort, but not somewhere that a man in his prime will take seriously. The old US Soccer league was known as the "Elephant's Graveyard"; a place where old players went for one last payday, with expectations low and crowd adulation high. Could this be the sign of Celtic Park becoming the same? A team of discount home-grown players padded out with a few superstars whose names will grace the backs of replica tops? Who will play this yin to Gary Caldwell's yang?

True enough, he apparently had great influence over guys such as Mark Wilson (again, according to the oracle that is the Sun), but Celtic's team has plenty of seasoned campaigners in it; guys with UEFA Cup experience and even World Cup experience. Surely it's about time they took some responsibility as well.

Why? Roy Keane is an ambitious footballer and was playing comfortably at the top level for Man Utd. I wouldn’t expect him to jack all that in to come to us – we are not in the position 99 times out of 100 for that to occur. You only have to look at lifelong Celtic support Liam Miller who went running off to Man Utd the first opportunity the chance arose despite him being wanted at Celtic. Does that make him any lesser a Celtic fan or have any lesser affinity with us because he wanted to put his career first? Of course it doesn’t.

Yes; and with the very rare exception, ambitious footballers don't come to elephants' graveyards like Celtic.



"One-club men" are the only type who have real affinity for a place, IMO. And I don't think there's anything wrong with it. As you say, it's a career, and a career for ambitious guys, at that.

But I'm glad you agree that no player with ambition would play for Celtic!

I didn’t say that no players with ambition would play for Celtic. I would certainly say that it would be a rare occasion when a player would chose Celtic over Man Utd – Henrik Larrson being one. Just as it would be a rare occasion that a player from a lower level SPL club, would turn down a move to Celtic. It’s called reality.

But Celtic, and its legions of misty-eyed sentimental fans, actively encourage treating their club as a vehicle for entertainment, rather than as a serious football team. The novelty signing of Roy Keane, the endless testimonials, tribute matches and other ceremonies of pomp and circumstance... all this from a team papped out of the CL by Artmedia Bratislava.

The signings of Keane last season and Caldwell this season, novelty tempered by mediocrity, have set the tone for the next few years, probably longer, of Celtic being a mediocre football team but a very successful marketing enterprise.

You certainly like going off on tangents and quite nonsensical ones at that.
I have already covered the Keane singing and why it was benefical to make several times over.

As for Gary Caldwell – I agree, he is not the standard of player I want at Celtic. It, more than anything, shows us the way modern football is going when a club of our size have to make singings like him and Kenny Miller rather than be able to splash out millions on established players like even the most mediocre EPL side can do.

While on another thread you said it was a gamble that didn't pay off.

I'd rather go off on "tangents" - as you call them - than contradict myself!



Incredible. You really don't see it, do you?

Roy Keane was earning tens of thousands a week. We seemingly do not know exactly how many tens, but we can agree that it was tens, yes?

Garry O'Connor was earning in the low four figures at Hibs, and he was one of their highest earners. Let's be charitable and say that Caldwell, a regular for Scotland, was earning more than O'Connor. O'Connor left Hibs (with Hibs' permission) because he was being offered a massive wage.

Anyway. Back to Scotland for now. You have acknowledged that footballers are ambitious. Celtic play European football on a regular basis while Hibs do not. Celtic did not have to agree terms with Hibs. Celtic talk only to the player. Celtic don't have to jump the "life-changing wages" hurdle that Lokomotiv had to in order to get their man from Hibs, as Hibs are out of the equation.

Celtic want Caldwell. Presumably, Caldwell wants Celtic.

Now, with this in mind, what are the odds of a guy like Caldwell earning nearly what Keane earned? In fact, do you think Caldwell's weekly wage is much into the five-figure bracket, if at all? No, it seems to me that Caldwell was a mediocre signing on average, perhaps even below average wages.

Everything Keane wasn't. Except mediocre, that is.

Let's think of what would have happened had Celtic told Keane to GTF.

Now. With Keane's money not spent, Celtic would still have been knocked out of the cup by Clyde, still won the SPL, and still papped out of Europe in the diddy stages. And there would be wages for a couple more players of Caldwell's calibre, or - important point coming up - wages that could be spent on a player who IS Celtic quality. Rather than on an old, injured player who was once world-class but could only manage 13, mostly average appearances over the course of one season.

Tell me again why this was a good signing. (Aside from the fact that you previously said it was a gamble that didn't pay off.)

I can think of one reason. Merchandising. How to recoup some losses. Give the old guys a place to jog out their careers in comfort and with no pressure, and watch the shirts fly off the shelves.

In this sense, Celtic have a good business going. On the pitch, things aren't so rosy. But if the fans are happy with novelty signings, the boardroom must be, too.

The gamble paid off, alright. But not for you. Unless you're a shareholder.

I see no need whatsoever why I need to continually waste time repeating myself over why I was in favour of Celtic signing Roy Keane and why, if I could turn the clock back, I would so again.

When did Henrik Larsson choose Celtic over Man Utd?

The crux of this issue is that Keane said several times that he would play for Celtic when his career was drawing to a close.

If you are happy for your club to be such a sideshow in world footballing terms (as it seems you are), then that is fair enough. I would personally want better if I were a Celtic fan.

Then don't! It is kind of going around in circles, I suppose, but that's because one of us has his head buried firmly in the sand

Despite your explanations, I still don't see how you can say with a straight face that Roy Keane was an ideal signing for Celtic to have made at the end of last season. OK, I realise I can speak with the benefit of hindsight, but he contributed very little. Perhaps he did have untold influence on the youngsters in the dressing room, who knows?

But I stand by what I said earlier. And we can probably leave it at that.

Keane said well before his career was drawing to a close that he wanted to play for us. I really don't care as it is totally irrelevant. Other players have stated their desire to play for us - it doesn't mean we have went out and signed them.

The issue is whether the manager thinks singing the player would have a positive and beneficial impact on the team - Strachan thought so and I thought so.

You are the one that is taking the debate round in circles and yes you clearly are speaking with the benefit of hindsight.

Who, since the signing of Keane, has done this?

The precedent is set: let's see Celtic climb up the slippery slope



Dross like Mo Camara and Dion Dublin (another past-it journeyman who Strachan always seems to sign, same with Paul Telfer) are Celtic's reward for blowing a huge portion of their wage budget on Roy Keane.

I'd be seriously worried if Strachan was dictating the wage situation at Celtic Park, since he clearly has no idea what he's doing.

Who said anyone has said it since the signing of Roy Keane?

Mo Camara was signed months before Roy Keane was with us, the same with Paul Telfer - so clearly they are not a "reward for blowing a huge portion of their wage budget on Roy Keane".

Dion Dublin was a short term signing to provide us with back up in our title run in. He did a good enough job for what he was brought in for.

So the last player who said he wanted to play for Celtic was signed by Celtic?

What will happen when the next aging superstar comes along, I wonder?

The precedent is set, and the agents will be rubbing their hands with anticipation



The calibre of signings was very low, with the exception of Boruc, Zurawski and Keane. Why would he fill up a team with budget signings if he wasn't saving for some big deals? (One of which was Keane, who flopped.)



A leitmotif for the future. "Good enough."

Quite strange that you miss out arguably the best signing he made in Nakamura whos one of the most naturally talented players I have seen in my time following Celtic. The only total flop has been Adam Virgo which at the time looked like a waste money and is proving that as time goes by. Hopefully the 1.5million fee touted was a total package and relied on certain criteria being met.

I think you may be right you know- Gordon Strachan clearly in the summer was holding back some money in order to sign a perfectly contented Man United player in Roy Keane. Furthermore, it was Strachan who instigated the whole scenario which ultimately led to Keane leaving Man United. He has some power and influence does Mr Starchan.

Hold my hands up to that one, dunno how I could have forgotten him.

(However, if Celtic would play to his strengths, he'd look even better )



If Strachan has power and influence, why does he rely on the same old tired journeymen he used at Coventry and Southampton (teams, I'm sure you'll agree, that aren't as big as Celtic)?

Further, this was hardly the massive coup you've made it out to be, since it was Keane who said he wanted to play for Celtic, and as such he "instigated" it?

You were correct earlier though when you said the misty-eyed Sellick fans were their own downfall here.

If this ageing player had not been Irish and therefore a classic target to be exploited by Celtic for his connection to Oirland, this situation very likely wouldn't have arisen.

The fans bought into the myth of Keane and he shafted the club royally.

If he was so desperate to play for Celtic , he (a multi millionaire) could have done so for a very nominal sum, which clearly he did not do. Keane will have done very nicely thank you out of his 5 months at Celtic. What is he going to give back?

cf. Henrik Larsson going home to play for Helsingborgs. I will wager his weekly wage is a tiny tiny fraction of what he earned at Celtic or Barca.

Keanes wage was 45k per week, half of which was paid directly by Dermott Desmond.

In effect he 'cost' Celtic FC around 400k. Given that Celtic will have made a vast amount on the number of Keane shirts, book sales at the stores, testimonial fee etc, all in all, I would say Strachan's done a decent piece of business here (although at the time most spectators wondered whether he had any say in the matter).

Celtic have probably got Keane for an outlay of around 10k per game. Considering teams have paid 1.5m for the likes of Paul Bernard 10k per game's not that bad.

That said....

He's still taken Celtic, Dermott Desmond and the Celtic support for mugs though. He had the chance to sign at the end of 2003/04 season and didn't, even though he'd already started slating almost everything ManU.

'Well, that's moi legs done. Och, top o the mornin to ye Mr Lawell, can I int'rest ye in a lucky charm f'r yer team?'

Erm I was being sarcastic, I thought that was the best way to deal with your claim.

I didn't make it out to be a massive coup.

That’s interesting. Can you care to substantiate your claim.

I know Celtic do not publicly reveal what wages our players are on (do any football clubs?) and I am fairly sure that Desmond wouldn’t do either. But I am willing to be proven wrong so be my guest.

Plenty of people know exactly what Celtic players earn. Some of them are happy to leak the information (Stan Petrov/SP's agent clearly being one in the past) themselves.

I have no idea what Keane was earning, but I would be most amazed if it was less than 40K a week. I bet he got a fat signing on fee too.



Yup - exactly.

Really? That's news to me that plenty of people know what Celtic players earn.

Glad to be of service then

I don’t think you have been to be perfectly honest.

Maybe taking this out of context but why did they sign him if there was a very real chance that he wouldn't play beyond this season anyway? Everyone knew about his knee problem and it was a huge gamble taking him on board because of it.

It wasn't his knee that forced him to retire.

I have already talked about it being a gamble.

Which didn't pay off.

Ooops. Sorry. I meant to say hip injury. Doh!

Still, with such a decrease in his general fitness I would guess it would have been on Celtics mind that this might have happened.

Correct, but IMO one worth taking.

What I read in the press was that Keane was paid £90K a week - with with half coming from Desmond so as not to jeapordise the wage structure.

But this, of course, is speculation. Besides, he's a Celtic legend, so who cares?

Of course it is speculation. Some sections of the media also said he was on 20k a week.

What amuses me most is when people believe such speculation when it suits them or rather when it suits their argument.