dogmc Posted June 18, 2017 Share Posted June 18, 2017 Very true that Lineen and Toony developed the guys for Cotter but they generally weren't transferring that form for Scotland and the national side were a mess. It was a tough, long job for Cotter but these home 6N wins over France, Wales and Ireland were a testament to his dedication and patience. We finished 4th purely on points difference in the 6N and could have been 3rd or 2nd. When we played Japan the climate was an advantage to them but most importantly it was at the end of a very long season where players had been in world cup training camps since the summer of 2015. Brutal stuff. We had a near full strength squad v Japan (essentially their b team) problem wasn't conditions it was a turgid style of play. The reason players didnt transfer their form was cotter not the players. Results dont lie....cotter had influence on side prior to taking over and we failed to get results before n during his tenure. Under toony we have already taken a bigger scalp than cotter did in his entire reign. Its not a coincidence. Even Robinson n hadden with worse players got better results than cotter v elite sides. Hogg flying over to join Scotland group from lions tells you all you need to know about the bond within the squad already 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmc Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 We're 5th in the world, we had a very respectable 6N, we've just beaten Oz in Sydney, Toony looks to be building on the great foundations that Cotter built (so far at least) and we'll win the tournament with a win on Sat then the players can enjoy a well earned rest. The U20's are doing grand too. It's looking good so far I totally get that but here's my concerns: We've won the toughest game in theory and the Fijians 15 aside game is relatively weak as they focus their energies on 7's. However, we're playing Fiji in their own backyard in a tropical climate that gives them the advantage. Seymour, Laidlaw and Russell are now with the Lions and Huw Jones is injured. Now Toony has just let Dunbar head back early. Fiji have just shocked Italy too. I hope we're not taking a win for granted. Has the potential to be very tricky. Doubt hes taking win for granted more that hes not that concerned about it n is more interested in seeing fringe players n if they have both the oomf to force themselves into line up n what their skills will be like under the pressure fiji will put on them. Its very much approach he took with Glasgow initially. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honestly united Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 They have said from the start the tour was all about looking at the players to see what they can do. I wouldn't be surprised to see the likes of Grigg, Allan, Rae etc who haven't featured yet to get a run out against fiji 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honestly united Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Having just looked at the U20's results, apart from France in the semi, we had the best result against NZ - so in my eyes that makes us unofficially the 3rd best team at U20's. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Shiels really needs to cut that Chris Ashton shit out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmc Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Shiels really needs to cut that Chris Ashton shit out. I'd normally agree but since he was winding up aussies he can have that one for free. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
come on shire Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 9 hours ago, dogmc said: We had a near full strength squad v Japan (essentially their b team) problem wasn't conditions it was a turgid style of play. The reason players didnt transfer their form was cotter not the players. Results dont lie....cotter had influence on side prior to taking over and we failed to get results before n during his tenure. Under toony we have already taken a bigger scalp than cotter did in his entire reign. Its not a coincidence. Even Robinson n hadden with worse players got better results than cotter v elite sides. Hogg flying over to join Scotland group from lions tells you all you need to know about the bond within the squad already Again I agree with a lot of what you say and Toony could easily become a more successful Scotland coach than Cotter. However, Cotter should take credit for developing a more positive approach which allowed us to win more tight games. For example, I think previous regimes would have lost those games over in Japan. He also developed the confidence amongst a good group of players to believe they can win 6N games against teams other than Italy with a bit of panache to boot. He had his faults but he delivered some good developments imo. In other news, there are reports circulating that Russell will sign a 3 year deal with Montpellier from the 2018/19 season. Hmm... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmc Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Again I agree with a lot of what you say and Toony could easily become a more successful Scotland coach than Cotter. However, Cotter should take credit for developing a more positive approach which allowed us to win more tight games. For example, I think previous regimes would have lost those games over in Japan. He also developed the confidence amongst a good group of players to believe they can win 6N games against teams other than Italy with a bit of panache to boot. He had his faults but he delivered some good developments imo. In other news, there are reports circulating that Russell will sign a 3 year deal with Montpellier from the 2018/19 season. Hmm... Don't mind Russell broadening his horizons tbh. Playing abroad will do him good and it will hopefully see hastings ready to inherit his Glasgow jersey. Not gonna have an elongated argument about cotter I just don't think he got the best out of a group of players that were improving rapidly at club level. Fagerson interview during the st Andrews training camp hinted that players weren't overly fond of cotter screaming at them and they preferred toonys more constructive approach. Whatever the truth of that the end result is we have a strong Scotland squad on an upward trajectory. After all the years in the wilderness it feels fantastic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doonhamer doon south Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 U20 have done amazing job but I have a question that leads to a concern. Where are these players based and are they getting the opportunity at club level to keep playing and improving. We don't want these players struggling to get game time because they are the future. Is there enough room for them? Finn Russell moving on is probably a good thing for him and for Scotland. I think he will pick up more and mature as no 10 playing in a tougher league than pro 12. Gives someone else a chance to step up as well. 2018 onwards though according to the BBC 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honestly united Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 Cotter was the right person at the time for the role - we were an absolute shambles. Lets not forget before Cotter we were lucky if we got one try in the entire 6N's, when he left you would back Scotland to score 2 or 3 tries against any team in the world. We had a bit of shape, a game plan and were picking up wins. I think he gave Scottish Rugby the kicking it needed and has set it on the right path. And much the same as at Glasgow, where I think Lineen did a lot of the hardwork to turn Glasgow round, Townsend coming in will take it to the next level. Lets not get to carried away as we have only beaten a very poor Italian side and a slightly experimental Australia side but there is plenty of reason to get optimistic. On the U20's I know we did have a tie up with London Scottish where we were loaning players to them to get game time, so I would think those not getting game time at a decent level that is the first stop. I think George Horne was down there, as was Hunter-Hill, not sure who else. But a 3rd Pro team has to be looked at soon as we dont want to be either losing players or stunting their development with lack of game time 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salmonbuddie Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 23 hours ago, dogmc said: Watched that Oz game back and one thing which has noticeably improved is our defence against rolling mauls. We were very prone to concede off that in the past and Oz were clearly expecting to profit from that because they passed up a lot of 3 pointers to go to corner. Perhaps poor form of the kicker also influenced that but with hindsight they should have just kept the scoreboard ticking over. That shot of hoggy n the bench celebrating is great to see. Toony has obviously got the squad really well bonded. Really excited about the autumn n 6n and run to next rwc. The Warriors improved immensely at defending rolling mauls last season, too - Dan McFarland is the common factor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afca32 Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 I don't think Finn leaving would be that big a loss with Hastings coming through but I do think Glasgow play the style best suited to him in the Northern Hemisphere. He's never really impressed me that much playing for Scotland under Cotter yet has been brilliant in the two games under Townsend. Also Montpellier do have Aaron Cruden coming in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAD Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 The problem with Finn going to Montpellier from a Scottish point of view is that he will get flogged over there. No rest weeks when the 6n is on, no extended summers and no early release to join the international squad. They will get their money's worth, the way Glasgow do with the foreign players. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmc Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 The problem with Finn going to Montpellier from a Scottish point of view is that he will get flogged over there. No rest weeks when the 6n is on, no extended summers and no early release to join the international squad. They will get their money's worth, the way Glasgow do with the foreign players. Hopefully hes negotiating a sensible contract and with vern cotter as coach, who claimed to be so emotionally attached to Scottish rugby, perhaps compromises can be found 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) Dreadful, dreadful news that Doddie Weir has been diagnosed with MND. ETA: link BBC Link Edited June 20, 2017 by Savage Henry 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Dreadful, dreadful news that Doddie Weir has been diagnosed with MND. You're fuckin joking. An absolute horror disease.. so sad for him and his family 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmc Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Dreadful, dreadful news that Doddie Weir has been diagnosed with MND. ETA: linkBBC Link That's horrendous. Had earlier been reading the BBC article on the 97 living with the lions doc and how sad it had been watching him get the news that his tour was over. Seems terribly insignificant now by comparison to this awful news. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 My hero when I was growing up, terrible. Was coached by him a few times and a genuinely lovely guy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peasy23 Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 That's horrendous. Had earlier been reading the BBC article on the 97 living with the lions doc and how sad it had been watching him get the news that his tour was over. Seems terribly insignificant now by comparison to this awful news. Gutted for Doddie and his family, he always comes across very well any time he has been on TV and radio. The "challenge" that put him out of the 97 tour is still the worst i think I've ever seen on a rugby field. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distant Doonhamer Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 5 hours ago, Savage Henry said: Dreadful, dreadful news that Doddie Weir has been diagnosed with MND. ETA: link BBC Link Indeed. Dreadful news for Doddie and his family. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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