Various club name issues

[Ranaldo Bairn]

23 minutes ago, blairdardie bankie said:

Did Perth not used to be known as Saint johns town hence the name?

This is correct.

St John's Toun of Perth.

[Marten]

12 hours ago, th1stleandr0se said:

Going slightly off-topic here but the Scottish Seniors have or had a fair few teams whose names don't let you know where they play.  Celtic, Rangers, Albion Rovers, Queen of the South, Queen's Park, Third Lanark, East Fife, Hibernian, Heart of Midlothian, St Johnstone, St Mirren, Morton, Raith Rovers and Clyde would all be difficult to find on a map.  OK, East Fife are in, well, East Fife but that's still quite approximate and I remember that the Shire were always called East Stirling on the telly but aren't in Stirling and Hearts don't technically play in Midlothian.  Of course, Morton are now Greenock Morton and Celtic and Rangers are referred to with the prefix Glasgow but those are all later additions.  Even in the early days of the English league most teams could be placed quite easily, even if some, like Everton, are a part of a town rather than the town itself.  Scotland seems quite unique in having so many non-geographical names

Oh, and you won't find Partick Thistle in Partick.

 

Neither Scotland, nor juniors, but Nottingham has also a nice naming oddity. The city of Nottingham and county of Nottinghamshire are 2 separate local authorities, with Nottingham politically not being a part of the county named after it. Notts County have a name referring to Nottinghamshire, yet play inside the City boundaries. Nottingham Forest have a name referring to the city, yet play outside the City boundaries in the county.

Funnily enough (as most people will know!) the 2 grounds are virtually next to each other, only the river Trent separating them. But that river is the boundary...

[Marten]

10 minutes ago, Jason King said:

I honestly don't know anyone in Scotland who refers to the ugly sisters as "Glasgow....."

In The Netherlands, Rangers always get referred to as "Glasgow Rangers" and Celtic as just Celtic. As far as I know, adding place names with both is not an official part of the name, just used abroad to make clear where they are based.

Same other way around, with PSV being referred to as "PSV Eindhoven" in UK media, yet their name is just PSV.

[glensmad]

11 minutes ago, Marten said:

In The Netherlands, Rangers always get referred to as "Glasgow Rangers" and Celtic as just Celtic. As far as I know, adding place names with both is not an official part of the name, just used abroad to make clear where they are based.

Same other way around, with PSV being referred to as "PSV Eindhoven" in UK media, yet their name is just PSV.

AC Milan and Inter Milan are another example. "AC" stands for Football Club in Italian, so they are basically Milan Football Club. Inter don't have Milan in their title at all, they are Internazionale. Bayern Munich are similar, they are actually just FC Bayern.

[Gaz]

1 minute ago, glensmad said:

Bayern Munich are similar, they are actually just FC Bayern.

No they're not

[glensmad]

Just now, Gaz said:

No they're not

I stand corrected on that one, they are FC Bayern Munchen.

[The_Judge]

I might have missed it when reading through the thread but noticed recently that Sporting Lisbon (as I've always known them) are actually Sporting Clube De Portugal.

[MEADOWXI]

36 minutes ago, Marten said:

Neither Scotland, nor juniors, but Nottingham has also a nice naming oddity. The city of Nottingham and county of Nottinghamshire are 2 separate local authorities, with Nottingham politically not being a part of the county named after it. Notts County have a name referring to Nottinghamshire, yet play inside the City boundaries. Nottingham Forest have a name referring to the city, yet play outside the City boundaries in the county.

Funnily enough (as most people will know!) the 2 grounds are virtually next to each other, only the river Trent separating them. But that river is the boundary...

To add to the Nottingham fun the names of the grounds are equally wrong, as Notts Co play at the County Ground which is in the city and not the county.

and Nottingham Forest play at the City Ground which is in the county and not the city.

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

Following the Forrest/County theme and a different sport entirely.

Kansas City Chiefs don't play in Kansas but Missouri.

[Jason King]

They do play in Kansas City though, just that its Kansas City Missouri.

[bluedragon]

13 hours ago, th1stleandr0se said:

Going slightly off-topic here but the Scottish Seniors have or had a fair few teams whose names don't let you know where they play.  Celtic, Rangers, Albion Rovers, Queen of the South, Queen's Park, Third Lanark, East Fife, Hibernian, Heart of Midlothian, St Johnstone, St Mirren, Morton, Raith Rovers and Clyde would all be difficult to find on a map.  OK, East Fife are in, well, East Fife but that's still quite approximate and I remember that the Shire were always called East Stirling on the telly but aren't in Stirling and Hearts don't technically play in Midlothian.  Of course, Morton are now Greenock Morton and Celtic and Rangers are referred to with the prefix Glasgow but those are all later additions.  Even in the early days of the English league most teams could be placed quite easily, even if some, like Everton, are a part of a town rather than the town itself.  Scotland seems quite unique in having so many non-geographical names

Oh, and you won't find Partick Thistle in Partick.

 

That has always had me wondering too! I do not think that there is one English League club that has, at least originally, a non-geographical location name. Arsenal were of course originally Woolwich Arsenal. Port Vale were apparently named after a house in Stoke-on-Trent where the club was formed. The club then moved to nearby Burslem and became “Burslem Port Vale” and they entered the Football League under that name in 1892. The club found a new ground a few miles away and dropped the “Burslem” and when it moved back to Burslem in 1950 did not add the town’s name back.

The nearest I have come to as a theory is that clubs’ very rarely change their name. Therefore whoever got in first with a name means that it has probably stuck.

SENIORS

A broad generalisation of how some of the distinctly Scottish clubs names may have emerged:

1.      Someone came up with a name and it gets the thumbs-up from the players and committee and hey presto the club had a name and it has endured. I understand Rangers were named after an English Rugby team that someone had seen and thought was a good name. Hawick Royal Albert owes the “Royal Albert” to two gentleman from Larkhall involved in the formation of the Borders club and suggested that it adopted the name of their home town club.

2.      The club just carries on using a name of an army unit, cricket club, etc. and was where the early players met, e.g. Third Lanarkshire Rifle Volunteers.

3.      Less common or local names for towns. As mentioned Saint John’s toun is the ancient name for Perth. St Johnstone was formed from St Johnstone Cricket Club and adopted the name. So the early Perth footballers did not deliberately select a romantic name for its new club. Queen of the South is surely one of the best club names? However, apparently from the late 19^th Century it was a well-used nickname for the town and had been used by earlier Dumfries clubs. When the present club was formed in 1919 it was an amalgamation of several clubs, one of which was Dumfries FC, and they chose to use the name.

Therefore although the early football pioneers have left us a legacy of wonderful club names I don’t think that this was their intention as they only wanted a distinctive name. It is only over the years that they have rightly become romantic!

In the early days of the game the football club names in England and Scotland developed differently. In England the North West, Black Country, etc, were a collection of towns and naming the club after the town was a source of civic pride and early bragging rights, i.e. our town’s better than your town.

In Scotland, perhaps clubs, certainly in Glasgow and Edinburgh, did not see the need to add the city name as a prefix as they already had a distinctive and unique name. Some smaller Scottish cities and towns simply use their town/city name.  Perhaps some of these clubs e.g. Arbroath, dropped an early suffix to make it clear that they were the main team in the town and ranked above the other short-lived senior and many junior clubs who played nearby with fancy names. Other clubs will have been part of early amalgamations, e.g. Ayr Parkhouse, and a more conservative name was given to the new club.

JUNIORS

As we know Junior football has some wonderful club names but when you boil it down almost all clubs are named after their original location in some way. I read a theory as to why so many Junior clubs have names of flora. Adding a flowery name  may have made the clubs in "the gentlemen’s game played by ruffians" more acceptable especially in the local community from which they relied on for backing.  So perhaps saying: “I am off to watch the Heatherbell play the Violet” was more acceptable than saying: “I am off to see the village football team kick seven bells out of the neighbouring village side”.

OVERSEAS

The official name of top Argentinian club Boca Juniors is “Club Atlético Boca Juniors”. The English word “Juniors” was retained as there was British influence (together with other European countries) in the early days of the game there. Sadly, it does not have a link to Scottish Junior football as the literal meaning is “the sons of the La Boca district in Buenos Aires”.

[Stag Nation]

1 hour ago, Marten said:

Neither Scotland, nor juniors, but Nottingham has also a nice naming oddity. The city of Nottingham and county of Nottinghamshire are 2 separate local authorities, with Nottingham politically not being a part of the county named after it. Notts County have a name referring to Nottinghamshire, yet play inside the City boundaries. Nottingham Forest have a name referring to the city, yet play outside the City boundaries in the county.

Funnily enough (as most people will know!) the 2 grounds are virtually next to each other, only the river Trent separating them. But that river is the boundary...

The club's names date from a time when Nottingham city was indeed within Nottinghamshire. Surely we don't expect clubs to be renamed with every  daft local government reorganisation?

[Stag Nation]

1 hour ago, Jason King said:

I honestly don't know anyone in Scotland who refers to the ugly sisters as "Glasgow....."

No indeed. There's only one Sevco.

[glensmad]

Glasgow Perthshire is another interesting one, named as part of the sporting clubs linked to the Glasgow Perthshire Charitable Society, which provides bursaries to people from Perthshire attending education establishments based in Glasgow.

[Vic Girvan]

5

[Jason King]

10 minutes ago, Vic Girvan said:

5

6, 7, 8

 

[Black Pennel]

When does the fitba start up again...?

[Vic Girvan]

Sorry a wee typo. I understand that the names of towns/cities being included in club names relates to the early days of European competition. The Inter City Fair's Cup was originally a competition between select teams from cities. I.e. Barcelona v London. This soon changed to clubs qualifying but only one club from the same city could participate in European competition. In the early 1960's because Rangers won the league, Third Lanark finish 3rd and under the rules of later years, Would have qualified for the ICFC but because they came from Glasgow and Rangers were in the European Cup they were denied entry because Glasgow was already represented. I believe this is why in European competition Glasgow appears with regard to Celtic and Rangers and Greenock was added to Morton, to identify the city/town they represented

[Tutankhamen]

23 hours ago, Black Pennel said:

When does the fitba start up again...?

Or what happened to not playing on or before Glasgow Fair Saturday?

[Markka]

Following the Forrest/County theme and a different sport entirely.
Kansas City Chiefs don't play in Kansas but Missouri.

They do play in Kansas City though, just that its Kansas City Missouri.

I think Sporting Kansas City in the MLS are the only major sports team to actually play in Kansas state.

A better instance than Zen Archer's would be New York Red Bulls, who don't play in New York city or state, but over the border in Harrison, New Jersey, albeit not that far from NYC proper.