Road to progression

[Sergeant Wilson]

48 minutes ago, mcruic said:

I think what the pyramid offers, which many people don't mention, is the degree of "optional" promotion.  If you don't want to be promoted to a higher level, just refuse promotion and give the opportunity to another club.  Being in the pyramid doesn't oblige you to move to another league if you are happy where you are - and for the majority of junior and/or amateur clubs, this would be regional in nature (which is no different to what they will experience in junior/amateur football).  Personally, I think only the top 2 divisions should be nationwide.

I played around a bit with a possible structure for all the current professional, senior non-league, junior, amateur and welfare teams in Scotland that I could find info for (1042 clubs), and it was possible to fit all clubs into 7 steps (from the Scottish Premier League down to the lowest amateur/welfare teams), with a maximum league size of 16, and maximum "feeder leagues" of 3 to any league in any tier (except for Tier 7 in the North - many of these clubs would have problems entering Tier 6 due to travel costs).  Most clubs below Tier 2 would have minimal travel costs (the same as or less than they do currently).  For any club that so desires (and has the necessary finances and facilities), there would be the opportunity to reach the Premier League from the bottom of the pyramid in 6 seasons.

SCOTTISH LEAGUE (76 CLUBS)
TIER 1 - Scottish Premier (12 clubs)
TIER 2 - Scottish First (16 clubs)
TIER 3 - Scottish Second North (16 clubs), Scottish Second East (16 clubs), Scottish Second West (16 clubs)

Below this, the pyramid is split into North, West and East as follows:
NORTH (299 CLUBS)
TIER 4 - North Premier (16 clubs)
TIER 5 - North First (16 clubs)
TIER 6 - North Second North (16 clubs), North Second Central (16 clubs), North Second East (16 clubs)
TIER 7  - North Third Orkney (14 clubs), North Third Strathspey & Badenoch (7 clubs), North Third Lewis & Harris (8 clubs), North Third Uist & Barra (6 clubs), North Third Skye & Lochalsh (9 clubs), North Third Sutherland (9 clubs), North Third Caithness (11 clubs),  North Third Shetland (16 clubs), North Ross-Shire (8 clubs), North Third Inverness (14 clubs), North Third Inverness East (10 clubs), North Third Moray (16 clubs), North Third West Aberdeenshire (14 clubs), North Third Aberdeen West (13 clubs), North Third Aberdeen South/Central (13 clubs), North Third Aberdeen North (11 clubs), North Third Montrose & Mearns (14 clubs), North Third Northeast Coast (14 clubs), North Third Northeast Landward (12 clubs)

EAST (292 CLUBS)
TIER 4 - East Premier North (16 clubs), East Premier South (16 clubs)
TIER 5 - East First Tayside (16 clubs), East First Fife (16 clubs), East First Southwest (16 clubs), East First Southeast (16 clubs)
TIER 6 - East Second Angus (10 clubs), East Second Dundee (16 clubs), East Second Perthshire (12 clubs), East Second Fife (14 clubs), East Second Stirlingshire (10 clubs), East Second Falkirk/West Lothian (10 clubs), East Second Borders (16 clubs), East Second Edinburgh/East Lothian (16 clubs)
TIER 7 - East Third Angus (10 clubs), East Third Dundee 'A' (10 clubs), East Third Dundee 'B' (9 clubs), East Third Perthshire (11 clubs), East Third Stirlingshire (9 clubs), East Third Falkirk/West Lothian (11 clubs), East Third Borders (14 clubs), East Third Edinburgh/East Lothian 'A' (9 clubs), East Third Edinburgh/East Lothian 'B' (9 clubs)

WEST (375 CLUBS)
TIER 4 - West Premier North (16 clubs), West Premier South (16 clubs)
TIER 5 - West First West (16 clubs), West First Glasgow (16 clubs), West First Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire (16 clubs), West First North Ayrshire (10 clubs), West First South Ayrshire/Galloway (10 clubs)
TIER 6 - West Second West - North (16 clubs), West Second West - South (16 clubs), West Second Glasgow 'A' (16 clubs), West Second Glasgow 'B' (16 clubs), West Second Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire North (16 clubs), West Second Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire South (16 clubs), West Second North Ayrshire (10 clubs), West Second South Ayrshire/Galloway (10 clubs)
TIER 7 - West Third West - Northwest (12 clubs), West Third West - Northeast (13 clubs), West Third Southwest (14 clubs), West Third Southeast (14 clubs), Third Glasgow 'A' (14 clubs), West Third Glasgow 'B' (12 clubs), West Third Glasgow 'C' (12 clubs), West Third Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire Northwest (12 clubs), West Third Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire Northeast (12 clubs), West Third Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire Southwest (13 clubs), West Third Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire Southeast (12 clubs), West Third North Ayrshire (8 clubs), West Third South Ayrshire/Galloway (11 clubs).

I suggest you murder someone and assume their life.

[Beenzon-Toste]

I think what the pyramid offers, which many people don't mention, is the degree of "optional" promotion.  If you don't want to be promoted to a higher level, just refuse promotion and give the opportunity to another club.  Being in the pyramid doesn't oblige you to move to another league if you are happy where you are - and for the majority of junior and/or amateur clubs, this would be regional in nature (which is no different to what they will experience in junior/amateur football).  Personally, I think only the top 2 divisions should be nationwide.
I played around a bit with a possible structure for all the current professional, senior non-league, junior, amateur and welfare teams in Scotland that I could find info for (1042 clubs), and it was possible to fit all clubs into 7 steps (from the Scottish Premier League down to the lowest amateur/welfare teams), with a maximum league size of 16, and maximum "feeder leagues" of 3 to any league in any tier (except for Tier 7 in the North - many of these clubs would have problems entering Tier 6 due to travel costs).  Most clubs below Tier 2 would have minimal travel costs (the same as or less than they do currently).  For any club that so desires (and has the necessary finances and facilities), there would be the opportunity to reach the Premier League from the bottom of the pyramid in 6 seasons.
SCOTTISH LEAGUE (76 CLUBS)
TIER 1 - Scottish Premier (12 clubs)
TIER 2 - Scottish First (16 clubs)
TIER 3 - Scottish Second North (16 clubs), Scottish Second East (16 clubs), Scottish Second West (16 clubs)

Below this, the pyramid is split into North, West and East as follows:
NORTH (299 CLUBS)
TIER 4 - North Premier (16 clubs)
TIER 5 - North First (16 clubs)
TIER 6 - North Second North (16 clubs), North Second Central (16 clubs), North Second East (16 clubs)
TIER 7  - North Third Orkney (14 clubs), North Third Strathspey & Badenoch (7 clubs), North Third Lewis & Harris (8 clubs), North Third Uist & Barra (6 clubs), North Third Skye & Lochalsh (9 clubs), North Third Sutherland (9 clubs), North Third Caithness (11 clubs),  North Third Shetland (16 clubs), North Ross-Shire (8 clubs), North Third Inverness (14 clubs), North Third Inverness East (10 clubs), North Third Moray (16 clubs), North Third West Aberdeenshire (14 clubs), North Third Aberdeen West (13 clubs), North Third Aberdeen South/Central (13 clubs), North Third Aberdeen North (11 clubs), North Third Montrose & Mearns (14 clubs), North Third Northeast Coast (14 clubs), North Third Northeast Landward (12 clubs)
EAST (292 CLUBS)
TIER 4 - East Premier North (16 clubs), East Premier South (16 clubs)
TIER 5 - East First Tayside (16 clubs), East First Fife (16 clubs), East First Southwest (16 clubs), East First Southeast (16 clubs)
TIER 6 - East Second Angus (10 clubs), East Second Dundee (16 clubs), East Second Perthshire (12 clubs), East Second Fife (14 clubs), East Second Stirlingshire (10 clubs), East Second Falkirk/West Lothian (10 clubs), East Second Borders (16 clubs), East Second Edinburgh/East Lothian (16 clubs)
TIER 7 - East Third Angus (10 clubs), East Third Dundee 'A' (10 clubs), East Third Dundee 'B' (9 clubs), East Third Perthshire (11 clubs), East Third Stirlingshire (9 clubs), East Third Falkirk/West Lothian (11 clubs), East Third Borders (14 clubs), East Third Edinburgh/East Lothian 'A' (9 clubs), East Third Edinburgh/East Lothian 'B' (9 clubs)
WEST (375 CLUBS)
TIER 4 - West Premier North (16 clubs), West Premier South (16 clubs)
TIER 5 - West First West (16 clubs), West First Glasgow (16 clubs), West First Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire (16 clubs), West First North Ayrshire (10 clubs), West First South Ayrshire/Galloway (10 clubs)
TIER 6 - West Second West - North (16 clubs), West Second West - South (16 clubs), West Second Glasgow 'A' (16 clubs), West Second Glasgow 'B' (16 clubs), West Second Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire North (16 clubs), West Second Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire South (16 clubs), West Second North Ayrshire (10 clubs), West Second South Ayrshire/Galloway (10 clubs)
TIER 7 - West Third West - Northwest (12 clubs), West Third West - Northeast (13 clubs), West Third Southwest (14 clubs), West Third Southeast (14 clubs), Third Glasgow 'A' (14 clubs), West Third Glasgow 'B' (12 clubs), West Third Glasgow 'C' (12 clubs), West Third Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire Northwest (12 clubs), West Third Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire Northeast (12 clubs), West Third Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire Southwest (13 clubs), West Third Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire Southeast (12 clubs), West Third North Ayrshire (8 clubs), West Third South Ayrshire/Galloway (11 clubs).

I suggest you contact your nearest community/leisure centre. I'm sure they would have knitting classes or a stamp collector's club you could get involved with. At the very least it would help you to connect with the real world.

[Burnie_man]

5 hours ago, mcruic said:

I think what the pyramid offers, which many people don't mention, is the degree of "optional" promotion.  If you don't want to be promoted to a higher level, just refuse promotion and give the opportunity to another club.  Being in the pyramid doesn't oblige you to move to another league if you are happy where you are - and for the majority of junior and/or amateur clubs, this would be regional in nature (which is no different to what they will experience in junior/amateur football).  Personally, I think only the top 2 divisions should be nationwide.

I played around a bit with a possible structure for all the current professional, senior non-league, junior, amateur and welfare teams in Scotland that I could find info for (1042 clubs), and it was possible to fit all clubs into 7 steps (from the Scottish Premier League down to the lowest amateur/welfare teams), with a maximum league size of 16, and maximum "feeder leagues" of 3 to any league in any tier (except for Tier 7 in the North - many of these clubs would have problems entering Tier 6 due to travel costs).  Most clubs below Tier 2 would have minimal travel costs (the same as or less than they do currently).  For any club that so desires (and has the necessary finances and facilities), there would be the opportunity to reach the Premier League from the bottom of the pyramid in 6 seasons.

SCOTTISH LEAGUE (76 CLUBS)
TIER 1 - Scottish Premier (12 clubs)
TIER 2 - Scottish First (16 clubs)
TIER 3 - Scottish Second North (16 clubs), Scottish Second East (16 clubs), Scottish Second West (16 clubs)

Below this, the pyramid is split into North, West and East as follows:
NORTH (299 CLUBS)
TIER 4 - North Premier (16 clubs)
TIER 5 - North First (16 clubs)
TIER 6 - North Second North (16 clubs), North Second Central (16 clubs), North Second East (16 clubs)
TIER 7  - North Third Orkney (14 clubs), North Third Strathspey & Badenoch (7 clubs), North Third Lewis & Harris (8 clubs), North Third Uist & Barra (6 clubs), North Third Skye & Lochalsh (9 clubs), North Third Sutherland (9 clubs), North Third Caithness (11 clubs),  North Third Shetland (16 clubs), North Ross-Shire (8 clubs), North Third Inverness (14 clubs), North Third Inverness East (10 clubs), North Third Moray (16 clubs), North Third West Aberdeenshire (14 clubs), North Third Aberdeen West (13 clubs), North Third Aberdeen South/Central (13 clubs), North Third Aberdeen North (11 clubs), North Third Montrose & Mearns (14 clubs), North Third Northeast Coast (14 clubs), North Third Northeast Landward (12 clubs)

EAST (292 CLUBS)
TIER 4 - East Premier North (16 clubs), East Premier South (16 clubs)
TIER 5 - East First Tayside (16 clubs), East First Fife (16 clubs), East First Southwest (16 clubs), East First Southeast (16 clubs)
TIER 6 - East Second Angus (10 clubs), East Second Dundee (16 clubs), East Second Perthshire (12 clubs), East Second Fife (14 clubs), East Second Stirlingshire (10 clubs), East Second Falkirk/West Lothian (10 clubs), East Second Borders (16 clubs), East Second Edinburgh/East Lothian (16 clubs)
TIER 7 - East Third Angus (10 clubs), East Third Dundee 'A' (10 clubs), East Third Dundee 'B' (9 clubs), East Third Perthshire (11 clubs), East Third Stirlingshire (9 clubs), East Third Falkirk/West Lothian (11 clubs), East Third Borders (14 clubs), East Third Edinburgh/East Lothian 'A' (9 clubs), East Third Edinburgh/East Lothian 'B' (9 clubs)

WEST (375 CLUBS)
TIER 4 - West Premier North (16 clubs), West Premier South (16 clubs)
TIER 5 - West First West (16 clubs), West First Glasgow (16 clubs), West First Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire (16 clubs), West First North Ayrshire (10 clubs), West First South Ayrshire/Galloway (10 clubs)
TIER 6 - West Second West - North (16 clubs), West Second West - South (16 clubs), West Second Glasgow 'A' (16 clubs), West Second Glasgow 'B' (16 clubs), West Second Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire North (16 clubs), West Second Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire South (16 clubs), West Second North Ayrshire (10 clubs), West Second South Ayrshire/Galloway (10 clubs)
TIER 7 - West Third West - Northwest (12 clubs), West Third West - Northeast (13 clubs), West Third Southwest (14 clubs), West Third Southeast (14 clubs), Third Glasgow 'A' (14 clubs), West Third Glasgow 'B' (12 clubs), West Third Glasgow 'C' (12 clubs), West Third Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire Northwest (12 clubs), West Third Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire Northeast (12 clubs), West Third Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire Southwest (13 clubs), West Third Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire Southeast (12 clubs), West Third North Ayrshire (8 clubs), West Third South Ayrshire/Galloway (11 clubs).

Aye, because the whole of Scottish football is pulling in the same direction and they'd all fall over themselves to implement this................

[mcruic]

Interesting responses - I have noticed that most other suggestions regarding possible pyramid structures have been scoffed at/ridiculed and generally attract negative comment.

I also understand that everyone isn't pulling in the same direction - it's unfortunate, but if the status quo is what people want (or at least think they want), then that's the way it will stay.   Though that status quo is looking increasingly shaky.

As for the knitting/stamp collecting/murdering suggestions - I'll pass on those, thanks!  This was just an illustration of what it would require structurally to bring all clubs into one pyramid.  Somebody (with their own life, presumably) would have to get together with other people (also with lives) to formulate some sort of plan to accommodate every club that wanted to be part of the structure (and take a bit more time about it than I did).  I'm sure there was opposition in England when they first rolled out the pyramid, and there were many more leagues to connect there. 

Note that I did preface the whole thing with "possible" - at no point did I think it would actually happen in the foreseeable future.  But I do think a larger pyramid structure than is currently the case will eventually develop over the next few years due to sheer weight in numbers leaving the juniors as evidenced by the East clubs this year.   At the moment, it's rather disjointed below the SFL because of the artificial "Highland/Lowland" division, which is geographically suited only to senior clubs.  One thing the juniors got right is that there needs to be a minimum of 3 geographical divisions below any nationwide structure.  And it needs to start higher up the pyramid. 4 national senior leagues is ludicrous.

 

[parsforlife]

Or you could just have linked to: https://www.gov.uk/employment-status/employee which is where I presume you got that. I've just asked a Law Society accredited specialist employment lawyer (also my best mate and godfather to my kids), and he says probably but he's not sure. Players are getting paid on the same terms than many players are under but get paid nothing. For example, Queen's Park players get travel and expenses only, but they're under direction from boss, can't work for someone else at the same time and a big one in the list above, can't send someone else. But all over the country players are tying themselves to that for nothing. It does make a difference that football is generally something that's played for fun, and things like player registration rules are just ways of making the sport fair. Just because the team you play for can charge people to come and watch, and pass some of that revenue to the players, it doesn't automatically make it a contract of employment. The SPFL Rules refer to both contracts of employment and contracts of service, but have much more focus on and mentions of the latter. It looks to me like the SPFL regard them as contracts of service. I don't think there's any chance a full-time contract could be regarded as anything other than a contract of employment though, however the employer or governing body might describe it. See https://spfl.co.uk/docs/067_324__rulesofthespflasat19_january_2018_1518083042.pdf 

I suspect someone out there knows the actual answer to this. Is there a standard contract that Junior players use?

 

 

Spfl rules refer to contract of service(employer-employee) not contract for services(customer- 'self employed' buisness)  Queens park will easily prove their players are volunteers, i guess if they refused to release a player so he could sign somewhere else then they'd be in a sticky patch if someone was to take issue but otherwise they'll be fine.   I don't think you can justify paying less than minimum wage 'cos he enjoys it anyway'  players are either volunteers or payed employees, they can't be both.  since you like links

https://www.gov.uk/volunteering/pay-and-expenses I think example 3 is probably as close the footballer scenario, they might be doing something they enjoy but as soon as any form of payment is involved they'll be employees.  Neil Parry talked about his time at queens park and it was a little bit insightful in how they encourage signings, executive coaches, good quality pre-match meals etc, perhaps those that can't afford the minimum wage will stop going down the route of pitiful wages and instead look at what they can do to support their players, even if it is on a much smaller scale than QP.

Not many players look seem to be bothered, as you say they do play to enjoy it, and the small amount of money they get is just a bonus to them but it just takes 1 that decides they don't like it any more and clubs will be looking at huge amounts of liabilities in back payments.

 

 

[GordonS]

7 hours ago, parsforlife said:

...

Not many players look seem to be bothered, as you say they do play to enjoy it, and the small amount of money they get is just a bonus to them but it just takes 1 that decides they don't like it any more and clubs will be looking at huge amounts of liabilities in back payments.

Ta for the link. I think you're right, example 3 does look relevant - a payment being made to someone doing something they were prepared to do for nothing. It seems misplaced in low-level sport; I paid three or four quid two or three times a week for 10 years to play football, and if someone had been able to pay me £40 a week instead I would have been delighted with that. Unless the organisation paying me was taking in plenty of money because I was playing I certainly wouldn't have been saying "haw, gies seven-pound-whatever per hour or I'm reporting you".

Your quote above is what I was worried about. It seems like one of those things that's fine as long as nobody rocks the boat, but all it would take is one guy being a bellend and a lot of clubs would be in trouble.

My employer used to pay flat rates for lunches, dinners etc when you were away on business, it was the tightening up of the tax rules that led them to pay on receipts only. It's a ball-ache for all concerned, our rates were low anyway so I don't think it saved as much as it cost to administer, but them's the rules. 

FWIW my mate says they may be "workers" rather than "employees". I've no idea what the distinction is, but it makes no difference with regard to minimum wage anyway.