Road to progression

[Duraglit shareholder]

With the massive upheaval taking place in the lower reaches of Scottish football,is their any appetite from succesful Amateur teams to progress to the next level.I was impressed recently at the level of interest shown at the Shortlees v Hurlford game,where over 1000 attended,could these teams sustain that level of interest or would the facilities on offfer make it impossible for them to move up to the next grade....would they want to,and risk losing amateur status,even though we all know that some players are earning good money at their respective clubs?.....would that attract attention of the blazers at Hampden?Are their any Amateur clubs in your  local area you believe are good  enough to take the next step or should the pyramid end at the juniors.

[Marten]

I'd be all for including the amateurs in the pyramid, but with optional promotion only as for some small local amateurs the step up could bankrupt the club. A system can be used like the promotion/relegation between steps 6 and 7 in England. The clubs in step 7 (loads of local amateur leagues) indicate to the FA by some point in the season whether or not they'd like to get promoted if they finish high enough. If that club matches the requirements, they can fill one of the promotion spots if they finish high enough. If there are fewer teams that want/can get promoted than relegated teams from step 6, relegated teams will be reprieved.

[boulderdomb]

In an ideal world the pyramid would also have a route for even Amateur clubs to work up through the ranks and clubs being relegated from above may also become Amateur.

[Shanner]

No reason why not. The amateur champions already get a pop at the senior Scottish don't they? 

Football should be integrated as much as possible. 

[santheman]

Only problem I can see is not many Amateur teams will have exclusive access to a compliant ground.

[FairWeatherFan]

A club can join the pyramid and still be run as an amateur. The most famous example being Queen's Park.

This year you've also had either St. Bernards or Musselburgh Windsor enquire about joining the EoS.

There's going to be a place for amateur clubs to apply to join leagues in the pyramid. Whether there will be any formal arrangement of amateur leagues becoming part of the pyramid will have to wait until the junior/senior issue is resolved.

[Viewparker]

3 hours ago, Duraglit shareholder said:

With the massive upheaval taking place in the lower reaches of Scottish football,is their any appetite from succesful Amateur teams to progress to the next level.I was impressed recently at the level of interest shown at the Shortlees v Hurlford game,where over 1000 attended,could these teams sustain that level of interest or would the facilities on offfer make it impossible for them to move up to the next grade....would they want to,and risk losing amateur status,even though we all know that some players are earning good money at their respective clubs?.....would that attract attention of the blazers at Hampden?Are their any Amateur clubs in your  local area you believe are good  enough to take the next step or should the pyramid end at the juniors.

The clubs that don’t follow the rules and rise to the top would be disadvantaged as within the pyramid all teams could pay their players.  

[Cyclizine]

Most of the North Juniors are amateur to all intents and purposes

[Hillonearth]

10 hours ago, Viewparker said:

The clubs that don’t follow the rules and rise to the top would be disadvantaged as within the pyramid all teams could pay their players.  

The big stumbling block would be first call on an enclosed ground - only a few of the bigger amateur names have this, and most alternate between several registered venues dependent on what's available or playable on the day.

As you say, some of the bigger amateur sides are heavily rumoured to be amateur in name only, and would likely prefer to remain big fish in a small pool - the amateur game's very much of itself in many respects, in some cases making some of the more insular and retrogressive current Junior clubs look progressive.

I wish it were not the case, but I just couldn't envisage too many amateur teams being interested.

[cmontheloknow]

18 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

Most of the North Juniors are amateur to all intents and purposes

While the lower reaches of East and West are ran along similar lines too, likewise the lower EoS and most of SoS.  Of the 200+ non-league teams, I'd be surprised if anywhere close to 50% were paying players.

[superbigal]

While the lower reaches of East and West are ran along similar lines too, likewise the lower EoS and most of SoS.  Of the 200+ non-league teams, I'd be surprised if anywhere close to 50% were paying players.

How many actually also paying minimum wage.
Probably cut that in half again.

[GordonS]

Do you need to pay minimum wage for a footballer contracted for 4 hours or so a week? I'd have thought it was a contract for services.

[garrellburn]

9 hours ago, GordonS said:

Do you need to pay minimum wage for a footballer contracted for 4 hours or so a week? I'd have thought it was a contract for services.

How can you play a game on saturday and train two nights, all within 4 hours taking pre-match preparation and travelling time into account?

[GordonS]

12 minutes ago, garrellburn said:

How can you play a game on saturday and train two nights, all within 4 hours taking pre-match preparation and travelling time into account?

Fine, 8 hours. The point is, is a contact at that level an employment contract or one for services? Anybody know for sure?

[parsforlife]

Fine, 8 hours. The point is, is a contact at that level an employment contract or one for services? Anybody know for sure?

There is absolutely no way I can be considered to be anything other than employment

Working out employment status for an employee
Someone who works for a business is probably an employee if most of the following are true:

they’re required to work regularly unless they’re on leave, for example holiday, sick leave or maternity leave
they’re required to do a minimum number of hours and expect to be paid for time worked
a manager or supervisor is responsible for their workload, saying when a piece of work should be finished and how it should be done
they can’t send someone else to do their work.
the business deducts tax and National Insurance contributions from their wages
they get paid holiday
they’re entitled to contractual or Statutory Sick Pay, and maternity or paternity pay
they can join the business’s pension scheme
the business’s disciplinary and grievance procedures apply to them
they work at the business’s premises or at an address specified by the business
their contract sets out redundancy procedures
the business provides the materials, tools and equipment for their work
they only work for the business or if they do have another job, it’s completely different from their work for the business
their contract, statement of terms and conditions or offer letter (which can be described as an ‘employment contract’) uses terms like ‘employer’ and ‘employee’

[Stag Nation]

41 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

 

 

There is absolutely no way I can be considered to be anything other than employment

Working out employment status for an employee
Someone who works for a business is probably an employee if most of the following are true:

they’re required to work regularly unless they’re on leave, for example holiday, sick leave or maternity leave
they’re required to do a minimum number of hours and expect to be paid for time worked
a manager or supervisor is responsible for their workload, saying when a piece of work should be finished and how it should be done
they can’t send someone else to do their work.
the business deducts tax and National Insurance contributions from their wages
they get paid holiday
they’re entitled to contractual or Statutory Sick Pay, and maternity or paternity pay
they can join the business’s pension scheme
the business’s disciplinary and grievance procedures apply to them
they work at the business’s premises or at an address specified by the business
their contract sets out redundancy procedures
the business provides the materials, tools and equipment for their work
they only work for the business or if they do have another job, it’s completely different from their work for the business
their contract, statement of terms and conditions or offer letter (which can be described as an ‘employment contract’) uses terms like ‘employer’ and ‘employee’

 

 

That sounds watertight, particularly the bit "they only work for the business", as they will be specifically prohibited from playing for another club..

[Guest]

This is all very very over technical.

In my experience, most teams will cover a players reasonable expenses for travelling to and from football (45p per mile). For others (higher earners) they will be paid a weekly 'wage' that has tax and national insurance deducted from it.

This fully depends on what is negotiated between the player and the club though. 

[GordonS]

29 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

 

 

There is absolutely no way I can be considered to be anything other than employment

Working out employment status for an employee
Someone who works for a business is probably an employee if most of the following are true:

they’re required to work regularly unless they’re on leave, for example holiday, sick leave or maternity leave
they’re required to do a minimum number of hours and expect to be paid for time worked
a manager or supervisor is responsible for their workload, saying when a piece of work should be finished and how it should be done
they can’t send someone else to do their work.
the business deducts tax and National Insurance contributions from their wages
they get paid holiday
they’re entitled to contractual or Statutory Sick Pay, and maternity or paternity pay
they can join the business’s pension scheme
the business’s disciplinary and grievance procedures apply to them
they work at the business’s premises or at an address specified by the business
their contract sets out redundancy procedures
the business provides the materials, tools and equipment for their work
they only work for the business or if they do have another job, it’s completely different from their work for the business
their contract, statement of terms and conditions or offer letter (which can be described as an ‘employment contract’) uses terms like ‘employer’ and ‘employee’

 

 

Or you could just have linked to: https://www.gov.uk/employment-status/employee which is where I presume you got that.

I've just asked a Law Society accredited specialist employment lawyer (also my best mate and godfather to my kids), and he says probably but he's not sure. Players are getting paid on the same terms than many players are under but get paid nothing. For example, Queen's Park players get travel and expenses only, but they're under direction from boss, can't work for someone else at the same time and a big one in the list above, can't send someone else. But all over the country players are tying themselves to that for nothing. It does make a difference that football is generally something that's played for fun, and things like player registration rules are just ways of making the sport fair. Just because the team you play for can charge people to come and watch, and pass some of that revenue to the players, it doesn't automatically make it a contract of employment.

The SPFL Rules refer to both contracts of employment and contracts of service, but have much more focus on and mentions of the latter. It looks to me like the SPFL regard them as contracts of service. I don't think there's any chance a full-time contract could be regarded as anything other than a contract of employment though, however the employer or governing body might describe it. See https://spfl.co.uk/docs/067_324__rulesofthespflasat19_january_2018_1518083042.pdf 

I suspect someone out there knows the actual answer to this. Is there a standard contract that Junior players use?

[GordonS]

7 minutes ago, Stag Nation said:

That sounds watertight, particularly the bit "they only work for the business", as they will be specifically prohibited from playing for another club..

That bit doesn't make any difference. It just a part of making the sport fairer that you cab't play for more than one team - its a rule you'll find at amateur level too. Also, Junior footballers do work for other businesses, they all have other jobs that generally have first call on their time.

See my reply to parsforlife above.

[mcruic]

I think what the pyramid offers, which many people don't mention, is the degree of "optional" promotion.  If you don't want to be promoted to a higher level, just refuse promotion and give the opportunity to another club.  Being in the pyramid doesn't oblige you to move to another league if you are happy where you are - and for the majority of junior and/or amateur clubs, this would be regional in nature (which is no different to what they will experience in junior/amateur football).  Personally, I think only the top 2 divisions should be nationwide.

I played around a bit with a possible structure for all the current professional, senior non-league, junior, amateur and welfare teams in Scotland that I could find info for (1042 clubs), and it was possible to fit all clubs into 7 steps (from the Scottish Premier League down to the lowest amateur/welfare teams), with a maximum league size of 16, and maximum "feeder leagues" of 3 to any league in any tier (except for Tier 7 in the North - many of these clubs would have problems entering Tier 6 due to travel costs).  Most clubs below Tier 2 would have minimal travel costs (the same as or less than they do currently).  For any club that so desires (and has the necessary finances and facilities), there would be the opportunity to reach the Premier League from the bottom of the pyramid in 6 seasons.

SCOTTISH LEAGUE (76 CLUBS)
TIER 1 - Scottish Premier (12 clubs)
TIER 2 - Scottish First (16 clubs)
TIER 3 - Scottish Second North (16 clubs), Scottish Second East (16 clubs), Scottish Second West (16 clubs)

Below this, the pyramid is split into North, West and East as follows:
NORTH (299 CLUBS)
TIER 4 - North Premier (16 clubs)
TIER 5 - North First (16 clubs)
TIER 6 - North Second North (16 clubs), North Second Central (16 clubs), North Second East (16 clubs)
TIER 7  - North Third Orkney (14 clubs), North Third Strathspey & Badenoch (7 clubs), North Third Lewis & Harris (8 clubs), North Third Uist & Barra (6 clubs), North Third Skye & Lochalsh (9 clubs), North Third Sutherland (9 clubs), North Third Caithness (11 clubs),  North Third Shetland (16 clubs), North Ross-Shire (8 clubs), North Third Inverness (14 clubs), North Third Inverness East (10 clubs), North Third Moray (16 clubs), North Third West Aberdeenshire (14 clubs), North Third Aberdeen West (13 clubs), North Third Aberdeen South/Central (13 clubs), North Third Aberdeen North (11 clubs), North Third Montrose & Mearns (14 clubs), North Third Northeast Coast (14 clubs), North Third Northeast Landward (12 clubs)

EAST (292 CLUBS)
TIER 4 - East Premier North (16 clubs), East Premier South (16 clubs)
TIER 5 - East First Tayside (16 clubs), East First Fife (16 clubs), East First Southwest (16 clubs), East First Southeast (16 clubs)
TIER 6 - East Second Angus (10 clubs), East Second Dundee (16 clubs), East Second Perthshire (12 clubs), East Second Fife (14 clubs), East Second Stirlingshire (10 clubs), East Second Falkirk/West Lothian (10 clubs), East Second Borders (16 clubs), East Second Edinburgh/East Lothian (16 clubs)
TIER 7 - East Third Angus (10 clubs), East Third Dundee 'A' (10 clubs), East Third Dundee 'B' (9 clubs), East Third Perthshire (11 clubs), East Third Stirlingshire (9 clubs), East Third Falkirk/West Lothian (11 clubs), East Third Borders (14 clubs), East Third Edinburgh/East Lothian 'A' (9 clubs), East Third Edinburgh/East Lothian 'B' (9 clubs)

WEST (375 CLUBS)
TIER 4 - West Premier North (16 clubs), West Premier South (16 clubs)
TIER 5 - West First West (16 clubs), West First Glasgow (16 clubs), West First Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire (16 clubs), West First North Ayrshire (10 clubs), West First South Ayrshire/Galloway (10 clubs)
TIER 6 - West Second West - North (16 clubs), West Second West - South (16 clubs), West Second Glasgow 'A' (16 clubs), West Second Glasgow 'B' (16 clubs), West Second Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire North (16 clubs), West Second Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire South (16 clubs), West Second North Ayrshire (10 clubs), West Second South Ayrshire/Galloway (10 clubs)
TIER 7 - West Third West - Northwest (12 clubs), West Third West - Northeast (13 clubs), West Third Southwest (14 clubs), West Third Southeast (14 clubs), Third Glasgow 'A' (14 clubs), West Third Glasgow 'B' (12 clubs), West Third Glasgow 'C' (12 clubs), West Third Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire Northwest (12 clubs), West Third Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire Northeast (12 clubs), West Third Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire Southwest (13 clubs), West Third Lanarkshire/East Dunbartonshire Southeast (12 clubs), West Third North Ayrshire (8 clubs), West Third South Ayrshire/Galloway (11 clubs).