West Region Juniors New Leagues 2018-19

[Tutankhamen]

hmmm, Forth v Greenock 55 miles. What exactly is regional?

[Khufu2]

1 hour ago, Jason King said:

You still seem upset, you poor little man.

 

You still seem excessively dim.

At least I might cheer up one day.

[Khufu2]

34 minutes ago, Tutankhamen said:

hmmm, Forth v Greenock 55 miles. What exactly is regional?

Hmm Who is proposing that?

[archieb]

18 hours ago, peasy23 said:

19 hours ago, theesel1994 said:

The split of Ayrshire to Central over the four Divisions :
Premiership (Ayrshire - 10 clubs / Central - 6 clubs)
Championship (7 / 9)
League 1 (3 / 13)
League 2 (4 / 11)
A lot of travelling for the Ayrshire clubs in the bottom Divisions.

My own view was that the 3rd tier should have been 2 regional divisions along new lines, e.g. NE and SW or something similar.

 

16 hours ago, Tutankhamen said:

Give it a couple of seasons and top and bottom will be near enough regional leagues.

 

12 hours ago, Seaside Sam said:

The names don’t bother me , I agree about the regional leagues though would have made much more sense!

 

12 hours ago, Khufu2 said:

Of course it should.  It should have been obvious to anyone with a modicum of common sense.

 

12 hours ago, Helen's Dad said:

Think your absolutely correct about regionalisation below the second league. 3 parallel leagues based on geography rather than the old Ayrshire/Central divide would have been my solution. I’m sure there’s somebody on here will come up with an illustration.

 

8 hours ago, Khufu2 said:

If there'd been two League 1 regional divisions you could have had the following:

WEST

Maryhill (play-off losers from WR Div1) 

Glasgow Perthshire (Central League Div 1) 

Port Glasgow (Central League Div 1) 

Yoker Athletic (Central League Div 1) 

Greenock (Central League Div 1) 

Lugar Boswell Thistle (Ayrshire League) 

Ardrossan Winton Rovers (Ayrshire League) 

Maybole (Ayrshire League) 

Muirkirk (Ayrshire League) 

Saltcoats Victoria (Ayrshire League) 

Ardeer Thistle (Ayrshire League) 

Annbank United (Ayrshire League) 

St Anthony's (Central League Div 2) 

Ashfield (Central League Div 2) 

Vale of Leven (Central League Div 2) 

Johnstone Burgh (Central League Div 2) 

 

EAST

Carluke Rovers (Central League Div 2) 

Newmains United (Central League Div 2) 

Blantyre Victoria (Central League Div 1) 

Wishaw (Central League Div 1) 

Lanark United (Central League Div 2) 

Lesmahagow (Central League Div 1) 

Forth Wanderers (Central League Div 1) 

Bellshill Athletic (Central League Div 2) 

Royal Albert (Champions, Central League Div 2) 

Gartcairn (Central League Div 2) 

Thorniewood United (Central League Div 1) 

Shotts Bon Accord (Central League Div 1) 

East Kilbride Thistle (Central League Div 1) 

Shettleston (play-off losers from WR Div1) 

Vale of Clyde (Central League Div 2) 

 

I defy anyone to say that wouldn't have been more sensible.

 

4 hours ago, santheman said:

I think after a season there will be murmurings for some kind of regionalisation of the bottom 2 leagues as the reality of increased travelling expenses hits home (particularly to the Ayrshire clubs) That was my fear from the start of the whole proposal. 

The idea of playing new clubs and seeing new places perhaps clouded the issue.

In saying that I genuinely hope I'm wrong as there was a definite need to freshen the Leagues up.

All of this ignores that the original proposals (both the one put out publicly by Whitletts and the Pollok one which mirrored it) DID propose a regionalised (N/S or E/W) third level in the West Region.

However the overwhelming response from the clubs that bothered to reply to the consultation was AGAINST such regionalisation and FOR region-wide 3rd and 4th  divisions.

Any club that objected had ample opportunity to propose the regionalised version as an amendment, or to suggest a different nomenclature for the divisions.

Like it or not, the concept was proposed from the grass roots, not the administration, and the outcome WAS arrived at democratically, and by a huge majority.

Leading up to the 2019 West Region AGM it should be possible for any club that wants the league structure and/or nomenclature changed to put in a motion to that effect.

[FairWeatherFan]

Are Stonehouse still returning next year or was that just a rumour?

[santheman]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Are Stonehouse still returning next year or was that just a rumour?

Not a rumour. Amateur team Machan taking on the name and hoping to play out of Tileworks (unless they've changed their mind)

 

[Helen's Dad]

Not disputing anything you’ve said archieb. For me though the key phrase you used was “clubs that bothered to reply.”

Just got a feeling the clubs in the bottom divisions will become bothered as next season goes on. 

Still think 3 parallel leagues of 10/12 teams based on geography would be best. 16 team leagues with limited promotion spots and no relegation would be dull. Three leagues - champions promoted runners up into 4 way play off with fourth bottom side in second league.

 

[archieb]

5 hours ago, Helen's Dad said:

Not disputing anything you’ve said archieb. For me though the key phrase you used was “clubs that bothered to reply.”

It's kinda tricky to take into account the views/interests of clubs that can't be bothered to reply to a consultation.

It's also worth considering that Whitletts and Pollok were given pelters by the WR MC for talking to other interested clubs,  saying that they'd instructed us only to discuss our proposals with each other and St Anthony's!!

5 hours ago, Helen's Dad said:

Just got a feeling the clubs in the bottom divisions will become bothered as next season goes on. 

Remains to be seen. Obviously there WERE some clubs that voted against reconstruction but, other than specific ones who told us they objected (e.g. Talbot, surprise surprise, and Muirkirk) we don't know how they were distributed between the divisions or geographically. The clubs that DID take part in the development of the AGM motions were from all 5 existing divisions and a reasonably representative geographical spread.

5 hours ago, Helen's Dad said:

Still think 3 parallel leagues of 10/12 teams based on geography would be best. 16 team leagues with limited promotion spots and no relegation would be dull. Three leagues - champions promoted runners up into 4 way play off with fourth bottom side in second league.

The increase in division size from 12/14 to 16 was a key motivation for the proposal. Clubs both in the upper (e.g. Pollok) and lower (e.g. Whitletts and St Anthony's) all wanted more guaranteed home fixtures and fewer randomly-drawn knockout tournaments (which is hopefully what will be confirmed on 27th June).

The likes of what you are suggesting would have been too complicated to sell as part of the overall proposal. If the WRSJFA keeps its 63/64 teams for 2019-20 then prior to the 2019 AGM is the time to consider putting forward  ideas for any further changes.

[Brig O'Lea]

8 minutes ago, archieb said:

It's kinda tricky to take into account the views/interests of clubs that can't be bothered to reply to a consultation.

 

Exactly.  Reminds me of when the diggers arrive in a field to start a new housing development and everyone goes bananas but couldn't be bothered leaving the house when the consultation meetings were being held six months before.

As Archie says, any club or clubs are free at any time to put forward proposals in the years to come regarding whatever they want changed. 

 

[Beenzon-Toste]

Not disputing anything you’ve said archieb. For me though the key phrase you used was “clubs that bothered to reply.”
Just got a feeling the clubs in the bottom divisions will become bothered as next season goes on. 
Still think 3 parallel leagues of 10/12 teams based on geography would be best. 16 team leagues with limited promotion spots and no relegation would be dull. Three leagues - champions promoted runners up into 4 way play off with fourth bottom side in second league.
 

I thought another of the reasons behind the restructuring was to do away with regionalisation to help ensure that the balance of teams in each division was maintained. In your example, there could be 4 teams relegated from the same geographical area, where would you put them?

[Helen's Dad]

Your stuff is all factual mines is all speculation archieb

Also in full agreement that the reconstruction would have been complicated if it had included regionalisation below second league.

On the subject of replacing cup ties with league matches what’s the likely outcome re. cups next season?

 

 

[Helen's Dad]

Yeah its possible Beenzon. I guess you would arrange the 30 odd teams at the start of each season trying to balance out quality and location - not ideal but you could also argue if you can’t make top 2 in a ten horse race then u shouldn’t be promoted. As I said above this is just speculation on my part maybe leagues 3&4 will be more successful than I think.

[archieb]

31 minutes ago, Helen's Dad said:

Your stuff is all factual mines is all speculation archieb

Also in full agreement that the reconstruction would have been complicated if it had included regionalisation below second league.

On the subject of replacing cup ties with league matches what’s the likely outcome re. cups next season?

There's been no official word afaik but I understand that (as has been reported elsewhere on this forum) the Cups Sub-Committee recommended amalgamating and streamlining the Sectional Cups and discontinuing the end-of-season district cups.

37 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

8 hours ago, Helen said:

Not disputing anything you’ve said archieb. For me though the key phrase you used was “clubs that bothered to reply.”
Just got a feeling the clubs in the bottom divisions will become bothered as next season goes on. 
Still think 3 parallel leagues of 10/12 teams based on geography would be best. 16 team leagues with limited promotion spots and no relegation would be dull. Three leagues - champions promoted runners up into 4 way play off with fourth bottom side in second league.
 

I thought another of the reasons behind the restructuring was to do away with regionalisation to help ensure that the balance of teams in each division was maintained. In your example, there could be 4 teams relegated from the same geographical area, where would you put them?

IF such a regionalised tier is created in ANY league system, the allocation of teams to the sub-tier divisions would need to be reviewed at the end of each season, as takes place every year in many levels of the English pyramid.

The only reason there was an issue in the West Juniors was because below the 2nd tier the Ayrshire and Central leagues were set within fixed geographical boundaries. This became unsustainable when the relative success of the Ayrshire clubs led to that 3rd tier league shrinking to 11 clubs while the Central 2nd stayed at 12 and the Central 1st grew to 15 last season.

[Helen's Dad]

Have grave fears re. a streamlined/amalgamated sectional cup. My team played a total of 36 matches this season. We would be approaching that with 16 team leagues and the above cup before a ball is kicked in the Scottish or West. Also are we still going to have ET cup?

[archieb]

7 hours ago, Helen's Dad said:

Have grave fears re. a streamlined/amalgamated sectional cup. My team played a total of 36 matches this season. We would be approaching that with 16 team leagues and the above cup before a ball is kicked in the Scottish or West. Also are we still going to have ET cup?

Somewhere else I calculated that, with Dunipace leaving for the EoSL, assuming the Sectional is streamlined, the district cups go and the ETC stays, the total number of WR games next season will be 10 more than this season. On average clubs will play a very similar number of games.

Of course if there's a resurrected Stonehouse in League 2 the numbers go up a bit, but with more league games and fewer cups the end of season catch-up should be easier to schedule so I really don't see any reason to panic yet ... as long as we have a competent fixture setter on board ...

[Helen's Dad]

We keep using this phrase “streamlined” re. the sectional but     in what way is it cut back. 16 groups of 4 with top 2 advancing to last 32 means the finalists play 8 matches - in Ayrshire last season the Ardagh finalists played (wait for it) 8 matches! The sectional has to go to make room for the extra league games. We could get the opening 10 league matches played in August and September that way. As for keeping the ET cup - madness!

[peasy23]

We keep using this phrase “streamlined” re. the sectional but     in what way is it cut back. 16 groups of 4 with top 2 advancing to last 32 means the finalists play 8 matches - in Ayrshire last season the Ardagh finalists played (wait for it) 8 matches! The sectional has to go to make room for the extra league games. We could get the opening 10 league matches played in August and September that way. As for keeping the ET cup - madness!

It will only be the winners who go through to a last 16, so it would be 7 games for the finalists.

[Helen's Dad]

Thanks Peasy23. Don’t really think it makes any difference although a lot of meaningless games if only 1 qualifier from group.  If we’re determined to have some sort of “sectional” you could replace the first one/two rounds of the West with a Group stage and then have a knockout tournament from then on. That would then still let us play a serious amount of league games early on in the season.

[juventus]

Have grave fears re. a streamlined/amalgamated sectional cup. My team played a total of 36 matches this season. We would be approaching that with 16 team leagues and the above cup before a ball is kicked in the Scottish or West. Also are we still going to have ET cup?

Helen’s dad, I hear that Beith received more prize money for the evening times cup than the league.

[Helen's Dad]

Would not be at all surprised Juventus. Have suggested elswhere that the Evening Times should sponsor the Scottish. My problem with the ETs is the timing of it. If the aim of league reconstruction is to move away from cup football to a more professional league based set up then the irony of cramming the end of season league matches in to facilitate the ETs cup is priceless. Should be preseason tournament or not at all.