Gaelic Gaelic

[topcat(The most tip top)]

I don't keep a bank of readily linkable sources but I'll try my best
I'll answer in random order because...reasons
5. The money will go elsewhere but the spend is so minute you won't notice.
4. 'S math sin
2. I can't find any transcriptions about Perth/Stirling shire but it is all in here but in Gaelic in sound files  with people talking about their Gaelic upbringing around Blair Atholl , Aberfeldy, Loch Tay, Rannoch, Glen Dochart, Deeside etc http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk
Pictured above is Rob Bain of Ardoch, Deeside, Aberdeenshire who died in July, 2010. Rob was the son of Jean Bain, the last native speaker of Deeside Gaelic who died in 1984. In an interview with Sheena Blackhall, Rob said, of his mother’s Gaelic,
http://www.andywightman.com/archives/763
3. This is the best I can find at short notice. I don't know why Edinburgh has been missed out I suspect it is an error there definitely more Gaelic speakers in Edinburgh than Stirling . Obviously Skye is included in Highland.

EilEan Sar 61.2 16,489

Highland 7.4 16,596

Argyll and Bute 5.9 5,550

Glasgow City 1.7 9,469

Stirling 1.6 1,360

SCOTLAND 1.7 87,056

1.  By the 10th century, Gaelic had become the dominant language throughout northern and western Scotland, the Gaelo-Pictic Kingdom of Alba. Its spread to southern Scotland was less even and less complete. Place name analysis suggests dense usage of Gaelic in Galloway and adjoining areas to the north and west, as well as in West Lothian and parts of western Midlothian. Less dense usage is suggested for north Ayrshire, Renfrewshire, the Clyde Valley and eastern Dumfriesshire. This latter region is roughly the area of the old Kingdom of Strathclyde, which was annexed by the Kingdom of Alba in the early 11th century, but its inhabitants may have continued to speak Cumbric as late as the 12th century. In south-eastern Scotland, there is no evidence that Gaelic was ever widely spoken: the area shifted from Cumbric to Old English during its long incorporation into the Anglo-Saxon Kingdom of Northumbria. After the Lothians were conquered by Malcolm II at the Battle of Carham in 1018, the elites spoke Gaelic and continued to do so until about 1200. However commoners retained Old English.<sup>[1]
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Scottish_Gaelic</sup>

The number for Edinburgh is 5,935

According to the 2011 census

http://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/documents/analytical_reports/Report_part_1.pdf

It is important to remember that these numbers are for people who report having any skills in Gaelic. Some say they can’t speak it, some say they can’t read it, some can speak it but not understand it and in any case there’s no objective quality standard set for these skills.

If we’re setting the bar that low then there will be considerably more people in the capital that could describe themselves as having French or Spanish Language skills.

Since 2003 native Edinburghers are mostly delivered in the new infirmary in Little France which was settled by the French entourage of Mary Queen of Scots over back in the 16th Century so for Édimbourgoises under 16 French will literally be the historic Language of their birthplace.

[invergowrie arab]

13 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

 

The number for Edinburgh is 5,935

According to the 2011 census

http://www.scotlandscensus.gov.uk/documents/analytical_reports/Report_part_1.pdf

It is important to remember that these numbers are for people who report having any skills in Gaelic. Some say they can’t speak it, some say they can’t read it, some can speak it but not understand it and in any case there’s no objective quality standard set for these skills.

If we’re setting the bar that low then there will be considerably more people in the capital that could describe themselves as having French or Spanish Language skills.

Since 2003 native Edinburghers are mostly delivered in the new infirmary in Little France which was settled by the French entourage of Mary Queen of Scots over back in the 16th Century so for Édimbourgoises under 16 French will literally be the historic Language of their birthplace.

 

The numbers I quoted, the 90,000 odd for Scotland are for  "some understanding" etc. It's generally held that the number with fluency is around 57,000 so we might guess at about 3.5K for Edinburgh on a strictly pro rata interpretation of those numbers.

In any case whilst the raw numbers and %ages are small that would be consistent with the interpretation that in terms of total numbers only the Western Isles and had more speakers than Glasgow and Edinburgh (taking Highland as a whole for this isn't particularly useful as there are wild variations )

This is a reasonably controversial subject within Gaeldom. Glasgow is away to build it's third Gaelic primary to compliment the one Gaelic secondary.

There are no Gaelic schools in the western Isles.

There are Gaelic streams within schools but no Gaelic only institutions ( which is another whole other argument but all evidence shows it is better to have separate schools)

So, is it a numbers game? There are more Gaels in Glasgow than Barra so Glasgow should be prioritised. Or should Barra be the priority as it is a community language whereas Glasgow kids will probably stop the moment they leave school (in both senses, at 3pm and at 18)?

 

 

[alta-pete]

I have nothing like the statistical back up that’s been provided above - and in truth I am still trying to work what those stats prove - but, in my simple opinion, the money spent on it seems very much for a ‘wha’s like us’ effect from the Scottish Assembly.

I think the money and effort spent on preserving and trying to extend the Gaelic into the likes of Maryhill and Livingston is not a worthwhile exercise. Sorry.

But then I’m a non-Gaelic speaking Central Belt philistine so what do I know?

[invergowrie arab]

18 minutes ago, alta-pete said:

I have nothing like the statistical back up that’s been provided above - and in truth I am still trying to work what those stats prove - but, in my simple opinion, the money spent on it seems very much for a ‘wha’s like us’ effect from the Scottish Assembly.

I think the money and effort spent on preserving and trying to extend the Gaelic into the likes of Maryhill and Livingston is not a worthwhile exercise. Sorry.

But then I’m a non-Gaelic speaking Central Belt philistine so what do I know?

It's good to know what you know 

There are people who want Gaelic to get nothing - they are c***s and not worth dealing with.

There are people who say support to Gaelic should be confined to where Gaels live. I don't agree but it's not an unreasonable position. What people mean by that is the NW and islands. The stats demonstrate that where Gaels are is also in the central belt. 

Again the money spent on it is absolute buttons and I'll assume the term Scottish Assembly is meant with honest intention and address that point. Gaelic medium education was first implemented by the Tories in the 1980s preceding the Scottish parliament by 15 years. The Gaelic Act 2003 was legislated for under a Lab/Lib coalition but with support from every party in the parliament. The idea it's an SNP/nationalists thing to "other" Scotland from rUK is a fantasy that has only grown legs post 2014.

One interesting point that often comes up is rail signs. Scotrail are a private company and not bound by the provisions of the 2005 Act. They just do the signs because they want to. However, they are only produced when replacing signs anyway and at no extra cost to Scotrail.

Apart from those railway signs I don't know what promotion of Gaelic you imagine is happening in Livingston.

Maryhill is a different kettle of iasg. Western Glasgow will likely have some of the highest numbers of Gaels in Scotland (no stats) It was traditionally where Gaels moved to and still is as anyone who has ever drank in the Park Bar will know. That's why the Gaelic school is in Finnieston and why other schools have had to and will have to open as the demand for that school is so high

 

 

[pandarilla]

People who want Gaelic to get nothing are c***s who aren't worth dealing with!

[emoji3]

[Benjamin_Nevis]

7 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

One interesting point that often comes up is rail signs. Scotrail are a private company and not bound by the provisions of the 2005 Act. They just do the signs because they want to. However, they are only produced when replacing signs anyway and at no extra cost to Scotrail.

Was this not also the case with road signs as well?

I remember a "debate" raging on the Tully's Facebook page about it a while back when it was mentioned that Angus might bring in dual signage.

Needless to say it was rammed full of "proud Scots" who want Gaelic and the absolute buttons spent on it, binned forthwith. 

Sadly this debate will always be hijacked by absolute simpletons who think promotion of Gaelic is some sort of devious piece of mind-control by the EssEnnPee.

[invergowrie arab]

30 minutes ago, jupe1407 said:

Was this not also the case with road signs as well?

I remember a "debate" raging on the Tully's Facebook page about it a while back when it was mentioned that Angus might bring in dual signage.

Needless to say it was rammed full of "proud Scots" who want Gaelic and the absolute buttons spent on it, binned forthwith. 

Sadly this debate will always be hijacked by absolute simpletons who think promotion of Gaelic is some sort of devious piece of mind-control by the EssEnnPee.

Yes

[Hillonearth]

7 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

It's good to know what you know 

There are people who want Gaelic to get nothing - they are c***s and not worth dealing with.

There are people who say support to Gaelic should be confined to where Gaels live. I don't agree but it's not an unreasonable position. What people mean by that is the NW and islands. The stats demonstrate that where Gaels are is also in the central belt. 

Again the money spent on it is absolute buttons and I'll assume the term Scottish Assembly is meant with honest intention and address that point. Gaelic medium education was first implemented by the Tories in the 1980s preceding the Scottish parliament by 15 years. The Gaelic Act 2003 was legislated for under a Lab/Lib coalition but with support from every party in the parliament. The idea it's an SNP/nationalists thing to "other" Scotland from rUK is a fantasy that has only grown legs post 2014.

One interesting point that often comes up is rail signs. Scotrail are a private company and not bound by the provisions of the 2005 Act. They just do the signs because they want to. However, they are only produced when replacing signs anyway and at no extra cost to Scotrail.

Apart from those railway signs I don't know what promotion of Gaelic you imagine is happening in Livingston.

Maryhill is a different kettle of iasg. Western Glasgow will likely have some of the highest numbers of Gaels in Scotland (no stats) It was traditionally where Gaels moved to and still is as anyone who has ever drank in the Park Bar will know. That's why the Gaelic school is in Finnieston and why other schools have had to and will have to open as the demand for that school is so high

 

 

The Park Bar's in Kelvingrove, maybe a couple of miles away from Maryhill - pretty much in Finnieston in fact.

It's an experience though - at one point each island had an assigned table or bit of the bar - if you came from say Skye, you'd know to pitch up in a certain corner of the boozer and you'd find other folk from the island there.

"Canny sit there - that's Islay....!"

[Hedgecutter]

5 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

if you came from say Skye, you'd know to pitch up in a certain corner of the boozer and you'd find other folk from the island there.

"Canny sit there - that's Islay....!"

"Aye, Isle ah' Skye noo. Two pints, p***k"

[invergowrie arab]

15 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

The Park Bar's in Kelvingrove, maybe a couple of miles away from Maryhill - pretty much in Finnieston in fact.

It's an experience though - at one point each island had an assigned table or bit of the bar - if you came from say Skye, you'd know to pitch up in a certain corner of the boozer and you'd find other folk from the island there.

"Canny sit there - that's Islay....!"

Most of the Glasgow Gaelic speakers I know are Thistle fans. Poor b*****ds have a choice of anyone too.

[Sweet Pete]

I really don't see the point in the rail signs, road signs, emergency vehicle signs etc. Even the TV channel, to be quite honest. It was never a fully national language for the whole country and hasn't been widespread for a thousand years. It's as relevant as Latin, frankly. It doesn't annoy me, though. People getting annoyed about it might need to have a wee word with themselves. Growing up in a mixture of West Central and North East Scotland, I've never knowingly met a Gaelic speaker.

[welshbairn]

11 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

 

12 has more prime factors which is why the dozen is even handier. Most languages I’ve encountered have specific words for 11 and 12 but have some equivalent of x-teen. Does Gaelic or Welsh break with this pattern?
 

 

Welsh numbers look weird. Does Gaelic borrow English for big numbers too?

English Numbers	Welsh Numbers
numbers	rhifau
one	un
two	dau
three	tair
four	pedwar
five	pum
six	chwe
seven	saith
eight	wyth
nine	naw
ten	deg
eleven	un ar ddeg
twelve	deuddeg
thirteen	tri ar ddeg
fourteen	pedwar ar ddeg o
fifteen	bymtheg
sixteen	un ar bymtheg
seventeen	dau ar bymtheg
eighteen	deunaw
nineteen	pedwar ar bymtheg
twenty	ugain
hundred	cant
one thousand	un thousand
million	miliwn

[topcat(The most tip top)]

1 hour ago, pandarilla said:

People who want Gaelic to get nothing are c***s who aren't worth dealing with!

I would like to condemn chucking public funds at a pointless, exclusive middle class hobby

But speaking as someone that likes Opera I feel that might leave me on shaky ground

 

 

 

[invergowrie arab]

35 minutes ago, Sweet Pete said:

I really don't see the point in the rail signs, road signs, emergency vehicle signs etc. Even the TV channel, to be quite honest. It was never a fully national language for the whole country and hasn't been widespread for a thousand years. It's as relevant as Latin, frankly. It doesn't annoy me, though. People getting annoyed about it might need to have a wee word with themselves. Growing up in a mixture of West Central and North East Scotland, I've never knowingly met a Gaelic speaker.

The point is to give Gaelic equal respect and to allow Gaels to live their lives as far as as possible in their native language.

If it's as relevant to you in your life as Latin that's fine. It's the daily language of 55,000 people though and a community language still in some areas so to say it's as relevant as Latin is a touch silly.

As you say though, if it's not relevant to you just ignore it. I think most reasonable people, like yourself, find that easy enough to do.

 

[invergowrie arab]

30 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Welsh numbers look weird. Does Gaelic borrow English for big numbers too?

English Numbers	Welsh Numbers
numbers	rhifau
one	un
two	dau
three	tair
four	pedwar
five	pum
six	chwe
seven	saith
eight	wyth
nine	naw
ten	deg
eleven	un ar ddeg
twelve	deuddeg
thirteen	tri ar ddeg
fourteen	pedwar ar ddeg o
fifteen	bymtheg
sixteen	un ar bymtheg
seventeen	dau ar bymtheg
eighteen	deunaw
nineteen	pedwar ar bymtheg
twenty	ugain
hundred	cant
one thousand	un thousand
million	miliwn

Ceud 100

Mìle 1000

Millean 1000000

[The Moonster]

2 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

I would like to condemn chucking public funds at a pointless, exclusive middle class hobby

Wat.

[Melanius Mullarkey]

Just now, The Moonster said:

Wat.

@DeeMan

[Sweet Pete]

11 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

The point is to give Gaelic equal respect and to allow Gaels to live their lives as far as as possible in their native language.

If it's as relevant to you in your life as Latin that's fine. It's the daily language of 55,000 people though and a community language still in some areas so to say it's as relevant as Latin is a touch silly.

As you say though, if it's not relevant to you just ignore it. I think most reasonable people, like yourself, find that easy enough to do.

 

How dare you call me reasonable!

[chomp my root]

10 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

It's good to know what you know 

There are people who want Gaelic to get nothing - they are c***s and not worth dealing with.

There are people who say support to Gaelic should be confined to where Gaels live. I don't agree but it's not an unreasonable position. What people mean by that is the NW and islands. The stats demonstrate that where Gaels are is also in the central belt. 

Again the money spent on it is absolute buttons and I'll assume the term Scottish Assembly is meant with honest intention and address that point. Gaelic medium education was first implemented by the Tories in the 1980s preceding the Scottish parliament by 15 years. The Gaelic Act 2003 was legislated for under a Lab/Lib coalition but with support from every party in the parliament. The idea it's an SNP/nationalists thing to "other" Scotland from rUK is a fantasy that has only grown legs post 2014.

One interesting point that often comes up is rail signs. Scotrail are a private company and not bound by the provisions of the 2005 Act. They just do the signs because they want to. However, they are only produced when replacing signs anyway and at no extra cost to Scotrail.

Apart from those railway signs I don't know what promotion of Gaelic you imagine is happening in Livingston.

Maryhill is a different kettle of iasg. Western Glasgow will likely have some of the highest numbers of Gaels in Scotland (no stats) It was traditionally where Gaels moved to and still is as anyone who has ever drank in the Park Bar will know. That's why the Gaelic school is in Finnieston and why other schools have had to and will have to open as the demand for that school is so high

 

 

Coming down here and stealing our jobs. Ghetto dwelling feckers. 

[SlipperyP]

 

12 has more prime factors which is why the dozen is even handier. Most languages I’ve encountered have specific words for 11 and 12 but have some equivalent of x-teen. Does Gaelic or Welsh break with this pattern?

 

Thai doesn't 11 is a different word as is 21, 31...we use Nueng for 1 but 11 we say sip(with means 10) eet. Not sipnueng, while we use all the other numbers for teens, twenties and so...

Note for all. 13 is also an unlucky number here because if you turn the number on its side to the right. Is looks like the word ghost in written Thai language.

Teacher Slip is here all day.