Gaelic Gaelic

[supermik]

30 years ago this was the only Gaelic that interested me.

 

[chomp my root]

3 hours ago, The Moonster said:

Well it's clear from your "I don't mind Gaelic but..." posts across this thread that you absolutely do mind.  

Hmm., I've hardly been the most anti Gaelic poster on this thread so I can only assume I've given you a bitch slapping on another thread and you're bearing a grudge. Let it go dude, let it go. Your Chi will thank you for it. 

[The Moonster]

Just now, chomp my root said:

Hmm., I've hardly been the most anti Gaelic poster on this thread so I can only assume I've given you a bitch slapping on another thread and you're bearing a grudge. Let it go dude, let it go. Your Chi will thank you for it. 

You are mistaken.

And Mods, plz.

[Hillonearth]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

My tuppence worth would be that the pretense that Gaelic is a national language across all of Scotland should be dropped, but there's no harm targeting substantial resources at the areas where it is still a living language.

It was nearly universal throughout the country apart from the south east corner about a thousand years ago....to put it into perspective, around that time English looked like this...

Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum, þeod-cyninga þrym gefrunonhu  

ða æþelingas ellen fremedon. Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,

So quite a while back, then.

It's been a steady retreat north and west since, apart from a wee Gaelic-speaking pocket in Galloway that hung on until 1700-odd. 

Obviously if you pitch up somewhere like Stornoway it's great to hear it spoken,  but I've never had any great urge to properly learn it - a lowlander doing so seems like a bit of a conceit given there's literally no-one alive today who's monolingual in it. 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2018 by Hillonearth

[John Lambies Doos]

I did think it was somebody having a joke. Like I say, my local station (Kirkhill) was up as Cnoc Mhoire (more hill?) for ages...they changed it to something else that escapes me, but it's still not Cnoc Eaglaise which I think is the right translation.

Mhoire means big, so would be big hill. Exactly same in Irish Gaelic. Kirk, comes from kil meaning church, so would imagine the origins are church on a large hill, churches generally looked down on people so guess also makes sense..

[Hillonearth]

8 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

 

Mhoire means big, so would be big hill. Exactly same in Irish Gaelic. Kirk, comes from kil meaning church, so would imagine the origins are church on a large hill, churches generally looked down on people so guess also makes sense..

 

I checked it last night on the way home - it's Cnoc Cille now which I guess would be right - from my (limited!) knowledge church was Eaglais, so I thought that's what they'd change it to.

[welshbairn]

It's a bit daft in North Wales when they have directions to Wrexham and Wrecsam, and directions to English towns like Chester with the Welsh version Caer (iirc)

[banana]

15 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

It's a bit daft in North Wales when they have directions to Wrexham and Wrecsam, and directions to English towns like Chester with the Welsh version Caer (iirc)

^^^ colonialism apologist

[John Lambies Doos]

I checked it last night on the way home - it's Cnoc Cille now which I guess would be right - from my (limited!) knowledge church was Eaglais, so I thought that's what they'd change it to.

Is that not Latin?, Eglise I think is French

[welshbairn]

5 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

 

Is that not Latin?, Eglise I think is French

 

Norman probably. Robert the Bruce was a Norman and I'm pretty sure he didn't speak Gaelic. 

P.S. Google translate says Eaglais is Scots Gaelic for church  if that means anything.

Edited May 23, 2018 by welshbairn

[John Lambies Doos]

Norman probably. Robert the Bruce was a Norman and I'm pretty sure he didn't speak Gaelic. 
P.S. Google translate says Eaglais is Scots Gaelic for church  if that means anything.

Ah well, more confused. Guess there was some Latin/Gaelic overlap

[Sergeant Wilson]

21 hours ago, tree house tam said:

Is there? Fucking liberty! Where can I learn this Gaelic shit?

I could probably shite in Gaelic.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

 

Is that not Latin?, Eglise I think is French

 

It came into Latin meaning “Church” from ancient Greek “ekklesia”(ἐκκλησία) meaning “Assembly” and from there into French, Spanish and other languages it lives on in English in the term “Ecclesiastical” Kirk, Kerk, Church, Kirche etc.. are all Germanic but fundamentally go back to the Greek as well kyriakon (κυριακόν) meaning house of god.

 

Supposedly “Kirk” entered the now extinct Galloway version of Gaelic from Scots but never really entered the highland and Islands version that we treasure/resent today

 

 

I could also point out that there are plenty of long running arguments on the fine detail of the precise translations of biblical Greek terms which tend to have a distinctly sectarian flavour but there’s probably enough of that kind of thing on P&B as it is

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The_Kincardine]

17 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

It came into Latin as “Church” from ancient Greek “ekklesia”(ἐκκλησία) meaning “Assembly” and from there into French, Spanish and other languages it lives on in English in the term “Ecclesiastical” Kirk, Kerk, Church, Kirche etc.. are all Germanic but fundamentally go back to the Greek as well kyriakon (κυριακόν) meaning house of god.

Supposedly “Kirk” entered the now extinct Galloway version of Gaelic from Scots but never really entered the highland and Islands version that we treasure/resent today


I should also point out that there are plenty of long running arguments on the fine detail of the precise translations of biblical Greek terms which tend to have a distinctly sectarian flavour but there’s probably enough of that kind of thing on P&B as it is
 

 

Are there really many arguments over translation of words that are split along sectarian lines?  I know that ἐκκλησία was translated as 'congregation' in English bibles before 1611 and some would argue that that translation had a 'Reformation slant' but I can't think of many others.  It is, though, about 35 years since I studied any NT Greek.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Are there really many arguments over translation of words that are split along sectarian lines?  I know that ἐκκλησία was translated as 'congregation' in English bibles before 1611 and some would argue that that translation had a 'Reformation slant' but I can't think of many others.  It is, though, about 35 years since I studied any NT Greek.

 

The whole process of creating the King James Bible was full of debates over nuances of detail which generally set those of a more high church disposition against those with more Puritan leanings.

 

The fact that they came up with a compromise that it satisfied all parties still reads as decent prose today is pretty impressive. It was good enough to settle most of the serious arguments but given that earlier Christians literally argued about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin it was never going to be final.

 

 

Matthew 16:23 King James Version (KJV)

 

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE) puts it thus

 

23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me; for you are not on the side of God, but of men.

 

The literal translation would be the clumsy “stumbling block” as opposed to “offence” or “hindrance”

 

“offence”obviously looks worse than “hindrance”for fans of Peter (The supposed First pope) although he’s still been addressed as “Satan” so it’s not a great endorsement from his boss either way

[chomp my root]

22 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

 

The whole process of creating the King James Bible was full of debates over nuances of detail which generally set those of a more high church disposition against those with more Puritan leanings.

 

The fact that they came up with a compromise that it satisfied all parties still reads as decent prose today is pretty impressive. It was good enough to settle most of the serious arguments but given that earlier Christians literally argued about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin it was never going to be final.

 

 

Matthew 16:23 King James Version (KJV)

 

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE) puts it thus

 

23 But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me; for you are not on the side of God, but of men.

 

The literal translation would be the clumsy “stumbling block” as opposed to “offence” or “hindrance”

 

“offence”obviously looks worse than “hindrance”for fans of Peter (The supposed First pope) although he’s still been addressed as “Satan” so it’s not a great endorsement from his boss either way

Same in any industry. Who'd have thunk we'd have female or gay clergy, people compromise when they have to.

[The_Kincardine]

31 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

The whole process of creating the King James Bible was full of debates over nuances of detail which generally set those of a more high church disposition against those with more Puritan leanings.

The fact that they came up with a compromise that it satisfied all parties still reads as decent prose today is pretty impressive. It was good enough to settle most of the serious arguments but given that earlier Christians literally argued about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin it was never going to be final.

Matthew 16:23 King James Version (KJV)

“offence”obviously looks worse than “hindrance”for fans of Peter (The supposed First pope) although he’s still been addressed as “Satan” so it’s not a great endorsement from his boss either way

Looks like a missed opportunity to me.  If they'd translated σκάνδαλον as'scandal' they'd have shown unusual prescience.  Anyway, I'm not convinced.  I doubt the translation of σκάνδαλον had anything to do with Peter's purported role as the first Pope.  Neither Peter nor the other popes  attained such a lofty status until after the 1st Vatican council declared Papal infallibility in the Victorian era.

The notion may well have been around earlier but it really was the 19th C that upped the ante.

Edited May 23, 2018 by The_Kincardine

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Looks like a missed opportunity to me.  If they'd translated σκάνδαλον as'scandal' they'd have shown unusual prescience.  Anyway, I'm not convinced.  I doubt the translation of σκάνδαλον had anything to do with Peter's purported role as the first Pope.  Neither Peter nor the other popes  attained such a lofty status until after the 1st Vatican council declared Papal infallibility in the Victorian era.
The notion may well have been around earlier but it really was the 19th C that upped the ante.

More to the point translating the Bible into English was never really their bag in Rome

[Snobot]

4 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

I checked it last night on the way home - it's Cnoc Cille now which I guess would be right - from my (limited!) knowledge church was Eaglais, so I thought that's what they'd change it to.

Cnoc Mhoire = the hill of Mary. Cnoc Cille = the hill of the religious cell. Cill as in Kilmarnock, Kildonan, Kilbride and so on.

I suspect Mary would have certain religious overtones, so perhaps the reformation led to the change from Cnoc Mhoire to Cnoc Cille.

Also, further to an earlier observation there are many monoglot Gaels, they just all happen to be under the age of 5.

[Hillonearth]

9 hours ago, Snobot said:

Cnoc Mhoire = the hill of Mary. Cnoc Cille = the hill of the religious cell. Cill as in Kilmarnock, Kildonan, Kilbride and so on.

I suspect Mary would have certain religious overtones, so perhaps the reformation led to the change from Cnoc Mhoire to Cnoc Cille.

Also, further to an earlier observation there are many monoglot Gaels, they just all happen to be under the age of 5.

Entirely likely they may have just fucked up and put up the signs that should have been at Maryhill station!

Like I say, it took over a year - maybe even closer to two - for them to be changed, which would suggest they weren't being bombarded with complaints from South Lanarkshire-based Gaels.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Hillonearth