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Northern interest in a Non-League Scottish Cup/SFA Trophy?

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It was more the observation that it may have been easier to integrate any interested Tayside clubs into a new setup as well as Highland clubs. It's all academic, anyway. I don't even know if there were any interested clubs outwith the HFL. Probably not.

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Surely the future of all this is that the juniors effectively all become senior in a pyramid system and then the Scottish Junior Cup is used for national Cup competition for all non-SPFL clubs

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On 5/22/2018 at 02:46, Jimmy Shaker said:

 


Give us a good reason for entering.

 

The chance to play in a final in front of 5,000 to 10,000 and broadcast live on telly, in a competition with an unsurpassed tradition in non-league football in Scotland.

On 5/24/2018 at 08:55, Jimmy Shaker said:

SHFL clubs already play in a national competition. A pretty famous one. Anything else is just pissing about.

Not one that they could ever realistically hope of getting beyond the last 16. Linlithgow Rose play in that cup too and I bloody love it, I've only missed two matches since they first entered, but winning the Junior Cup is like nothing else you can experience below winning one of the three (and arguably only two) major cups.

On 5/25/2018 at 11:27, Jimmy Shaker said:

Taking part in an uninteresting, unsponsored competition is not broadening your horizons.

I appreciate its an alien concept to junior clubs but the SHFL has a fixture list printed in advance and we don’t just busk our way through the entire season.

It's not unsponsored, and it has attracted some very respectable sponsors down the years.

You're right about the second part, but I think a better organised Junior Cup, as part of a restructured non-league scene, would be great - and would be given significant impetus from HFL clubs joining.

On 5/26/2018 at 15:44, Cowden Cowboy said:

Surely the future of all this is that the juniors effectively all become senior in a pyramid system and then the Scottish Junior Cup is used for national Cup competition for all non-SPFL clubs

I'd love that, but the view seems to be here that it's just not appealing enough to the HFL clubs, which is disappointing. But it's up to them.

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4 minutes ago, GordonS said:

 

I'd love that, but the view seems to be here that it's just not appealing enough to the HFL clubs, which is disappointing. But it's up to them.

It's more about finding space in the calendar for another Cup.

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Just now, welshbairn said:

It's more about finding space in the calendar for another Cup.

I know, but that wouldn't be an issue if it were sufficiently appealing - it would be preferred to other existing cups if need be.

It's a lot for Cove, but this is what happens with success. They better get used to it, they'll be in Super Cups and World Club Cups in due course... 

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41 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I know, but that wouldn't be an issue if it were sufficiently appealing - it would be preferred to other existing cups if need be.

It's a lot for Cove, but this is what happens with success. They better get used to it, they'll be in Super Cups and World Club Cups in due course... 

It's probably going to come about with the Junior Cup reduced to the Ayrshire and Tayside Cup by the looks of it. Maybe have it as a pre and early season  thing, bit like the SPFL League Cup?

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Like I said, few in the north are really that bothered about the junior cup. The folk I know who are or were involved with junior teams always treated it as an inconvenience. Occasionally an expensive one. The SHFL hasn’t room and the north Juniors is in some state of flux just now. This, I don’t think we need.

So the junior cup is a big deal to folk in Ayrshire. Great. So too, I imagine, will electricity be when it arrives. It’s all very local.

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1 hour ago, Jimmy Shaker said:

Like I said, few in the north are really that bothered about the junior cup. The folk I know who are or were involved with junior teams always treated it as an inconvenience. Occasionally an expensive one. The SHFL hasn’t room and the north Juniors is in some state of flux just now. This, I don’t think we need.

So the junior cup is a big deal to folk in Ayrshire. Great. So too, I imagine, will electricity be when it arrives. It’s all very local.

No the reality is junior cup isn't big up north because the junior clubs up north aren't strong enough to compete in it.  What should happen is it becomes the Premier Non-League cup and as such has sponsorship and is the most prestigious cup outwith the 3 Cups involving SPFL teams - it is a nationwide competition with a long pedigree which just needs slightly repositioned.  

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17 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

No the reality is junior cup isn't big up north because the junior clubs up north aren't strong enough to compete in it.  What should happen is it becomes the Premier Non-League cup and as such has sponsorship and is the most prestigious cup outwith the 3 Cups involving SPFL teams - it is a nationwide competition with a long pedigree which just needs slightly repositioned.  

Taking it away from junior control would be a start. 

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2 hours ago, Jimmy Shaker said:

Like I said, few in the north are really that bothered about the junior cup. The folk I know who are or were involved with junior teams always treated it as an inconvenience. Occasionally an expensive one. The SHFL hasn’t room and the north Juniors is in some state of flux just now. This, I don’t think we need.

So the junior cup is a big deal to folk in Ayrshire. Great. So too, I imagine, will electricity be when it arrives. It’s all very local.

Canny be doing with one backwater of the country slagging another for being a backwater - even more so when it's mince.

Anyway, the Linlithgow Rose v Kelty final in 2007, the last all-East one I was at, got nearly 10,000. In the history of Highland football has any non-league match ever got a crowd like that? Pollok can bring a huge crowd too, as can many others from well beyond Ayrshire.

1 minute ago, gogsy said:

Taking it away from junior control would be a start. 

Sadly agreed.

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29 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

No the reality is junior cup isn't big up north because the junior clubs up north aren't strong enough to compete in it.  What should happen is it becomes the Premier Non-League cup and as such has sponsorship and is the most prestigious cup outwith the 3 Cups involving SPFL teams - it is a nationwide competition with a long pedigree which just needs slightly repositioned.  

It would have to be financially supported in the same way that other 3 Cups with SPFL involvement are. The sponsorship/tv deal it would generate wouldn't be enough on it's own to cover the financial costs. Finance is one of the growing issues with the Junior Scottish Cup.

The Scottish Cup this year had 91 clubs. Going on current known clubs within the regional portion of the SFA Pyramid you'd already have 88(?) clubs. A team getting to the final could possibly play 7 games which is quite a toll at this level just in terms of just time taken up. There'd have to be a financial incentive to get it done.

How the South Region Challenge Cup gets handled this year will be a good indicator of what can be done with current resources available to the LL/EoS/SoS.

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19 hours ago, gogsy said:

Taking it away from junior control would be a start. 

Correct there should be no junior grade at all

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Even unsponsored, the current Junior Cup winners receive £12,000 and the runners-up £8,000, there is also money for the losing semi-finalist I believe.  With the backing of the SFA, a national non-league competition could surpass this and also provide money further down the rounds to subsidise costs. For example if the early rounds were regionalised, then payment could begin when it reached the national stage at last 32 or 64.

The Junior Cup Final has live TV coverage, and recent sponsors included Emirates Airlines who (from memory) shelled in £80k a season. The potential is there if managed and promoted correctly (the SJFA dropped the ball in this respect), perhaps have the final at Hampden in conjunction with the Amateur Cup Final, something that is done in England the day after the FA Cup Final, with the FA Vase and FA Trophy, “Non League Finals Day” and both games are shown live on BT Sport.

I think we’ll have to go a few seasons without a national competition until we get everyone on board into the Pyramid who wants to be there, but there’s no reason why the SFA shouldn’t have this on its radar and consult clubs on the matter.  Re fixture calendar, competitions could therefore be trimmed to only include;

League fixtures

League Specific Cup (League Cup?)

Scottish Cup (for Licenced clubs), alternative cup for non-Licenced

Scottish FA Trophy (all Pyramid clubs)

 

Where there’s a will there’s a way.

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4 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Even unsponsored, the current Junior Cup winners receive £12,000 and the runners-up £8,000, there is also money for the losing semi-finalist I believe.  With the backing of the SFA, a national non-league competition could surpass this and also provide money further down the rounds to subsidise costs. For example if the early rounds were regionalised, then payment could begin when it reached the national stage at last 32 or 64.

The Junior Cup Final has live TV coverage, and recent sponsors included Emirates Airlines who (from memory) shelled in £80k a season. The potential is there if managed and promoted correctly (the SJFA dropped the ball in this respect), perhaps have the final at Hampden in conjunction with the Amateur Cup Final, something that is done in England the day after the FA Cup Final, with the FA Vase and FA Trophy, “Non League Finals Day” and both games are shown live on BT Sport.

I think we’ll have to go a few seasons without a national competition until we get everyone on board into the Pyramid who wants to be there, but there’s no reason why the SFA shouldn’t have this on its radar and consult clubs on the matter.  Re fixture calendar, competitions could therefore be trimmed to only include;

League fixtures

League Specific Cup (League Cup?)

Scottish Cup (for Licenced clubs), alternative cup for non-Licenced

Scottish FA Trophy (all Pyramid clubs)

 

Where there’s a will there’s a way.

I'm warming to this a bit, but only if the early rounds could be played pre season. Wouldn't want to lose the North Cup as it's the only thing that keeps the NCL in contact and is played in the Autumn. Not sure if the Shire really need or want the Shield as well as the Shire Cup.

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It's likely to come in some form with all these changes in the Lowland area. The South Challenge Cup will now have 69 teams in 2018-19, that's only going to get bigger. At some point it's likely to creep further North and become a National competition.

 

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Go a few seasons without a national competition? The Scottish Cup getting scrapped then?

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And the North Cup is one of the oldest cup competitions in all of football, IIRC. I’m not having that ditched - even in its current state - to make way for a game at Darvel or some crap like that.

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3 hours ago, Jimmy Shaker said:

Go a few seasons without a national competition? The Scottish Cup getting scrapped then?

James, James, James.................

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16 hours ago, welshbairn said:

I'm warming to this a bit, but only if the early rounds could be played pre season. Wouldn't want to lose the North Cup as it's the only thing that keeps the NCL in contact and is played in the Autumn. Not sure if the Shire really need or want the Shield as well as the Shire Cup.

That's why there needs to be a debate and a feasibility study on what it would look like and how it would work.

Ideally you'd play regional rounds between Aug-Oct, with the national rounds starting maybe Feb, or something like that.  Scottish Cup entrants maybe gain a bye in the early regional round.

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On 08/06/2018 at 11:24, Burnie_man said:

That's why there needs to be a debate and a feasibility study on what it would look like and how it would work.

Ideally you'd play regional rounds between Aug-Oct, with the national rounds starting maybe Feb, or something like that.  Scottish Cup entrants maybe gain a bye in the early regional round.

I'd sooner get the early rounds out of the way in July like the SPFL League Cup.

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