Northern interest in a Non-League Scottish Cup/SFA Trophy?

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, Jimmy Shaker said:

What all of the Junior Cup is televised? More than the final? 

I'm sure at least one North Region club recently didn't even bother with the Junior Cup, such was the waste of time in entering.

Yes all of it, on after Sportscene.....

Islavale didn't enter due to the financial risk involved in travelling to, or hosting, a club from these parts.  Everyone else entered (159). We went to Aberdeen East End and hosted Colony Park this season.  A good day out and Colony Park seemed to enjoy theirs (they were in Ayrshire the previous round), but both games saw a financial loss.

That's the problem particularly in the early rounds, hence why you'd probably want to keep it regional for the first two or three rounds pre-December, then widen it out nationally after January with subsidies to offset costs of away travel.  Problem with the Junior Cup is that its not regionalised, hence why Islavale didn't want to take the risk.

Pointless discussion just now until all (or more) Junior clubs move into the Pyramid but it's something which, IMO, should happen eventually.

[Hampden Diehard]

 

For all its faults, the Junior Cup is a competition that a great many clubs and fans look forward to. Hence why it is also televised.

Maybe I didn’t make myself clear. The Junior Cup is indeed the business, but I don’t think it attracts much in the way of sponsorship. Happy to be corrected on that.  If a competition as popular as it across Scotland isn’t really a money spinner sponsorship-wise, I can’t see a “senior” or all-in version doing much better. Other than sad cases such as the folk contributing here, is there a public appetite for yet another cup for wee teams?

 

Edited to add.. "sad cases" like myself

[FairWeatherFan]

4 hours ago, Hampden Diehard said:

Maybe I didn’t make myself clear. The Junior Cup is indeed the business, but I don’t think it attracts much in the way of sponsorship. Happy to be corrected on that.  If a competition as popular as it across Scotland isn’t really a money spinner sponsorship-wise, I can’t see a “senior” or all-in version doing much better. Other than sad cases such as the folk contributing here, is there a public appetite for yet another cup for wee teams?

It certainly wouldn't be a money spinner, which is one of the reasons it'd only get off the ground if the SFA was to financially support it in the same way they initially did with the North & South Region Challenge Cups (and presumably the Qualifying Cups historically.)

The reason to have a national competition is because it has the potential to be more prestigious than the mix of more local cups run by the various leagues, and also just a reason for all the various leagues to stay in communication with one another.

 

[Jimmy Shaker]

SHFL clubs already play in a national competition. A pretty famous one. Anything else is just pissing about.

[Burnie_man]

SHFL clubs already play in a national competition. A pretty famous one. Anything else is just pissing about.

No its not, it would be a national competition thay have a chance of winning. Maybe a Hampden final as well if done right by the SFA.

Look at the FA Vase and Trophy Finals down south, clubs also compete in the FA Cup but these are the cups they can win and they are great competitions.

The Junior Cup for all is faults is a great day out for everyone and the one the big Junior clubs want to win.

[Cyclizine]

I'm not against it, but I do think there's significant challenges to get it off the ground. It would need some seeding, regionalisation and subsidy for travelling clubs, at least in the first few rounds. No replays either. And it definitely needs prize money. No clubs should be out of pocket for any match. If that's dealt with, then there may be some buy in from the Highland clubs, but certainly there's no chance the way the Junior Cup is currently run that you'd see any interest.

[Jimmy Shaker]

6 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

No its not, it would be a national competition thay have a chance of winning. Maybe a Hampden final as well if done right by the SFA.

Look at the FA Vase and Trophy Finals down south, clubs also compete in the FA Cup but these are the cups they can win and they are great competitions.

The Junior Cup for all is faults is a great day out for everyone and the one the big Junior clubs want to win.

An enormous percentage of the entrants in any competition have no chance of winning it. What do we do then? Make another cup that doesn't involve the Superleague sides or those in the top half of the SHFL, just so those left have a chance to win something?

Why not just pester the SFA to make the Scottish Cup an all-in affair. 

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, Jimmy Shaker said:

An enormous percentage of the entrants in any competition have no chance of winning it. What do we do then? Make another cup that doesn't involve the Superleague sides or those in the top half of the SHFL, just so those left have a chance to win something?

Why not just pester the SFA to make the Scottish Cup an all-in affair. 

Good point. The FA cup goes down to level 10 and I think the French cup includes the amateur leagues. The Junior Cup seems to do fine as it is, although the current contretemps might change things. No idea if the 6th level of the pyramid are/will be excluded from the Junior Cup.

Edited May 24, 2018 by welshbairn

[FairWeatherFan]

Part of the reason for asking this originally was because it looks like something that the South Region Challenge Cup will evolve into by virtue of the number of clubs entering in the "South Region".

If my numbers are right on what's been so far decided and my understanding of who can participate is correct the South Region Challenge Cup could have 60 clubs enter next year (16 LL, 27 EoS, 14 SoS, Glasgow Uni, Girvan and Linlithgow Rose). Admittedly Girvan and Linlithgow likely won't take up the opportunity while a Junior club. That's a number that's only going to increase over the next couple of years.

Whereas if the North Region Challenge Cup was still on the go it could have 20. Might as well get them all together if it's not going to be a financial burden.

[welshbairn]

36 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Part of the reason for asking this originally was because it looks like something that the South Region Challenge Cup will evolve into by virtue of the number of clubs entering in the "South Region".

If my numbers are right on what's been so far decided and my understanding of who can participate is correct the South Region Challenge Cup could have 60 clubs enter next year (16 LL, 27 EoS, 14 SoS, Glasgow Uni, Girvan and Linlithgow Rose). Admittedly Girvan and Linlithgow likely won't take up the opportunity while a Junior club. That's a number that's only going to increase over the next couple of years.

Whereas if the North Region Challenge Cup was still on the go it could have 20. Might as well get them all together if it's not going to be a financial burden.

I suppose if the North and Shire Cups were abandoned it might be a possibility early in the season. Don't see the point if the NCL and NRJFA leagues aren't included though. The situation in the South bewilders me, I'm not sure how it affects the Juniors up here.

Edited May 24, 2018 by welshbairn

[HibeeJibee]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Part of the reason for asking this originally was because it looks like something that the South Region Challenge Cup will evolve into by virtue of the number of clubs entering in the "South Region".

If my numbers are right on what's been so far decided and my understanding of who can participate is correct the South Region Challenge Cup could have 60 clubs enter next year (16 LL, 27 EoS, 14 SoS, Glasgow Uni, Girvan and Linlithgow Rose). Admittedly Girvan and Linlithgow likely won't take up the opportunity while a Junior club. That's a number that's only going to increase over the next couple of years.

At current numbers it would be 58 next season - assuming you've included Craigroyston + Dunbar but excluded Stirling Uni EOS.

Girvan entered the first 2 editions, but scratched v Creetown (after eliminating Whitehill in the previous round much to their subsequent chagrin ), and then v Lothian Thistle: on the latter occasion I recall they'd a Junior league game listed the same day but having plumped for it and scratched it was frozen off ! Unsurprisingly all this didn't endear them very well to the other contestants and they were IIRC suspended sine die which probably suited them and everyone else in equal measure. Linlithgow Rose only obtained SFA membership a few years ago and have never entered.

Indeed, allowing for Girvan's permanent non-participation, it appears the rules are crafted to limit to senior leaguers + Glasgow Uni only:

5.1 The Competition shall be held annually and shall be open to and contested by
(1) All Clubs eligible to participate in the Scottish Association Qualifying Cup (South) in Season 2006/2007 and
(2) the Clubs in the East of Scotland Football League, South of Scotland Football League and Scottish Lowland Football League in the current Season not included in (1) above.
No club may enter more than one team in the Competition. The Competition is not open to clubs in membership of the Scottish Professional Football League.

Glasgow Uni have always entered but they've never had clashing Amateur fixtures - even Scottish Amateur Cup ties make way.

Edited May 24, 2018 by HibeeJibee

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, HibeeJibee said:

At current numbers it would be 58 next season - assuming you've included Craigroyston + Dunbar but excluded Stirling Uni EOS.

Girvan entered the first 2 editions, but scratched v Creetown (after eliminating Whitehill in the previous round much to their subsequent chagrin ), and then v Lothian Thistle: on the latter occasion I recall they'd a Junior league game listed the same day but having plumped for it and scratched it was frozen off ! Unsurprisingly all this didn't endear them very well to the other contestants and they were IIRC suspended sine die which probably suited them and everyone else in equal measure. Linlithgow Rose only obtained SFA membership a few years ago and have never entered.

Glasgow Uni have always entered but they've never had clashing Amateur fixtures - even Scottish Amateur Cup ties make way.

My thinking matches up with yours:

LL = 16

EoS = 28-1 (Craigroyston & Dunbar have joined the other 13 new applicants publicly but minus Stirling Uni EoS) = 27

SoS = 16-2 (Wigtown announced as returning minus Annan & Stranraer Reserves) = 14

Glasgow Uni = 1

Girvan = 1

Linlithgow Rose = 1

16+27+14+1+1+1 = 60 but 2 probably won't be participating as they're still linked  up with the SJFA.

[HibeeJibee]

On ‎21‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 12:05, welshbairn said:

Think I'm right in saying that Cove Rangers this year will take part in the League Cup, Scottish Cup, Challenge Cup, Highland League Cup and the Aberdeenshire Cup.

Enough Cups already.

... and the Aberdeenshire Shield. Mind you HL over-do cups.


Incidentally there was a Senior Non-League Cup in 2001-02 sponsored by Soccer World:

Quarter-Finals
Buckie Thistle 1-1 Annan Athletic (aet, FT 1-1, 5-4p)
Cove Rangers WO-Scr Tarff Rovers
Girvan WO-Scr Whitehill Welfare
St Cuthbert Wanderers 1-2 Huntly

Semi-Finals
Huntly 1-0 Buckie Thistle
Cove Rangers WO-Scr Girvan

Final (at Inverurie)
Cove Rangers 1-0 Huntly

It didn't reappear for 2002-03.

Edited May 24, 2018 by HibeeJibee

[Burnie_man]

18 hours ago, Jimmy Shaker said:

An enormous percentage of the entrants in any competition have no chance of winning it. What do we do then? Make another cup that doesn't involve the Superleague sides or those in the top half of the SHFL, just so those left have a chance to win something?

Why not just pester the SFA to make the Scottish Cup an all-in affair. 

You can say that for most cup competitions and leagues, so let's not bother

Wishaw made the semi-finals of the Junior Cup this season despite being a third tier Junior club.

I appreciate it's an alien concept to HFL clubs but you need to broaden your horizons a wee bit, like Ayrshire Junior clubs

To repeat, it would need a better structure than the Junior Cup to make it work, and the money would need to be there before it got off the ground, but it's something that needs to be worked towards IMO once the whole structure settles down.

[Jimmy Shaker]

Taking part in an uninteresting, unsponsored competition is not broadening your horizons.

I appreciate its an alien concept to junior clubs but the SHFL has a fixture list printed in advance and we don’t just busk our way through the entire season.

[Burnie_man]

20 minutes ago, Jimmy Shaker said:

Taking part in an uninteresting, unsponsored competition is not broadening your horizons.

I appreciate its an alien concept to junior clubs but the SHFL has a fixture list printed in advance and we don’t just busk our way through the entire season.

Correct, but we're talking about when the majority of Junior clubs come on board to the Pyramid - which they will, it's already happening - over the next season or two. They'll even have fixture lists.

Once we're at that point, then you can start looking at the feasibility of an "SFA Trophy" style national competition.  Why would it be uninteresting? also why mention unsponsored, it probably wouldn't happen if a sponsor could not be found.

[Ivo den Bieman]

The North region appears abidingly disinterested in a pyramid and any potential pyramid below the HL exists only in vestigal form.

Junior football is different in the region, it's basically glorified amateurs at the lower levels, and supporter interest outwith one or two clubs is virtually nil. The same could be said of the North Caledonian League where I don't think any of the membership have serious ambitions to progress to Highland League football.

That's before we get to the Highland League, who have paid lip service to the pyramid for a while, but no one beyond 5-6 clubs (maximum) seem to have any intention of progressing further (I am thinking Cove, Formartine, Locos, Turriff, Brora, Broch at a real push, and then only to go back to annoying Peterhead regularly). The rest either seem not interested or, frankly, lack the capacity to progress beyond level 5 without major investment.

The only way the North region (HL, NCL, juniors) will become serious pyramid participants is if the SFA step in and set up their own 10-12 club North Premier League, basically holding a gun to the head of the bigger HL clubs. Given the almighty mess which is brewing further south with the collapse of the East region juniors this summer, and the debates to come about the formation of a new West of Scotland pyramid league, (and how that meshes/ works alongside the largely amateur / not wanting to progress further South of Scotland league), the SFA isn't exactly going to have the time or political will to deal with northern reticence in the next few years.

As a result, full integration of the Northern non league set up into a Scotland wide football pyramid will remain (largely) the concern of league structure obsessives for a few years yet, and won't register on the radar of anyone beyond that tiny sub-set.

I still enjoy a few games in the Highland League every season and it's a decent set up, with the top six clubs in my opinion more than able to hold their own in League Two. The bottom half of the division is of a terrible standard, though. Administratively, it looks stagnant, complacent and tired, frankly. Older fans say it's not a patch on what it was twenty years ago so you do wonder how much time it has left in its current form. It will carry on for now owing to the deep conservatism of Highland administrators, their scepticism about progression into the league, and lack of will / interest/ understanding/ I dont-have-time-for-this-shit attitudes further south.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

The North region appears abidingly disinterested in a pyramid and any potential pyramid below the HL exists only in vestigal form.

Junior football is different in the region, it's basically glorified amateurs at the lower levels, and supporter interest outwith one or two clubs is virtually nil. The same could be said of the North Caledonian League where I don't think any of the membership have serious ambitions to progress to Highland League football.

That's before we get to the Highland League, who have paid lip service to the pyramid for a while, but no one beyond 5-6 clubs (maximum) seem to have any intention of progressing further (I am thinking Cove, Formartine, Locos, Turriff, Brora, Broch at a real push, and then only to go back to annoying Peterhead regularly). The rest either seem not interested or, frankly, lack the capacity to progress beyond level 5 without major investment.

The only way the North region (HL, NCL, juniors) will become serious pyramid participants is if the SFA step in and set up their own 10-12 club North Premier League, basically holding a gun to the head of the bigger HL clubs. Given the almighty mess which is brewing further south with the collapse of the East region juniors this summer, and the debates to come about the formation of a new West of Scotland pyramid league, (and how that meshes/ works alongside the largely amateur / not wanting to progress further South of Scotland league), the SFA isn't exactly going to have the time or political will to deal with northern reticence in the next few years.

As a result, full integration of the Northern non league set up into a Scotland wide football pyramid will remain (largely) the concern of league structure obsessives for a few years yet, and won't register on the radar of anyone beyond that tiny sub-set.

I still enjoy a few games in the Highland League every season and it's a decent set up, with the top six clubs in my opinion more than able to hold their own in League Two. The bottom half of the division is of a terrible standard, though. Administratively, it looks stagnant, complacent and tired, frankly. Older fans say it's not a patch on what it was twenty years ago so you do wonder how much time it has left in its current form. It will carry on for now owing to the deep conservatism of Highland administrators, their scepticism about progression into the league, and lack of will / interest/ understanding/ I dont-have-time-for-this-shit attitudes further south.

A bit  overly negative imo. The majority of HL and North Junior teams have voted for the Pyramid and it's up and running for the East and West Juniors to the Superleague, and in an overprotective way for the bottom League 2 side to the Highland League. It's just integrating the NCL (I don't know if they've been asked or if they're interested), and establishing the Highland League and Superleague link to be sorted. A guaranteed way to turn it into the Southern shambles would be for the SFA to set up a rival 10/12 team league and I don't think they're daft enough to try it.

[Cyclizine]

5 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

A bit  overly negative imo. The majority of HL and North Junior teams have voted for the Pyramid and it's up and running for the East and West Juniors to the Superleague, and in an overprotective way for the bottom League 2 side to the Highland League. It's just integrating the NCL (I don't know if they've been asked or if they're interested), and establishing the Highland League and Superleague link to be sorted. A guaranteed way to turn it into the Southern shambles would be for the SFA to set up a rival 10/12 team league and I don't think they're daft enough to try it.

I don't think they will now, but I can help thinking it may have been the way forward all those years ago when it as first proposed. Hindsight, eh?

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, Cyclizine said:

I don't think they will now, but I can help thinking it may have been the way forward all those years ago when it as first proposed. Hindsight, eh?

Very glad they didn't, I don't know anyone but for admin and structure geeks who think that 10/12 beats 16/18.