Votes for prisoners

[welshbairn]

This is an issue that I care nothing about either way. It will make no difference and there is no clear moral right on either side. Thought I better post something to be part of the gang though.

[glassnahalf]

1 hour ago, Stinky Bone said:

When the convict did the crime, they stole a little part of the victim(s) life which will never be the same again, the victim(s) have to deal with the offence for the rest of their lives.  Part of the punishment of being imprisoned is a loss of voting rights, which society "steals" back from the prisoner so that justice can be seen to be done.  It is only temporary and the convict is free to register again once released and start becoming part of society again.  

How many on here would call for voting rights to Bush and Blair for their war crimes if they were convicted and sent to prison?  Or Trump?

It is a part of the punishment for being in jail.  A small part, but still a part.  

If it were to become legal, couldn't it become even worse for some prisoners?  Being told how to vote by "The Daddy" may cause some convicts trauma and pain.

Spot on, my feelings exactly. I also believe that if they did get the vote that there would be a mass claim for compensation. Would the Gvmt most likely bend over backwards to award this to appease the EU/ECHR ?

From my understanding most prisoners don't really care about getting the vote, but the chance of getting some compo...

[NotThePars]

1 hour ago, Stinky Bone said:

 

If it were to become legal, couldn't it become even worse for some prisoners?  Being told how to vote by "The Daddy" may cause some convicts trauma and pain.

 

 

[tongue_tied_danny]

1 hour ago, Stinky Bone said:

When the convict did the crime, they stole a little part of the victim(s) life which will never be the same again, the victim(s) have to deal with the offence for the rest of their lives.  Part of the punishment of being imprisoned is a loss of voting rights, which society "steals" back from the prisoner so that justice can be seen to be done.  It is only temporary and the convict is free to register again once released and start becoming part of society again.  

How many on here would call for voting rights to Bush and Blair for their war crimes if they were convicted and sent to prison?  Or Trump?

It is a part of the punishment for being in jail.  A small part, but still a part.  

If it were to become legal, couldn't it become even worse for some prisoners?  Being told how to vote by "The Daddy" may cause some convicts trauma and pain.

Yup, the only thing stopping me from going a killing spree is the fear that I'd never be allowed to vote again.

[glassnahalf]

42 minutes ago, tongue_tied_danny said:

Yup, the only thing stopping me from going a killing spree is the fear that I'd never be allowed to vote again.

You have a mighty problem...

[glassnahalf]

21 hours ago, Stinky Bone said:

Possibly compensation, but then the Government could claim it back off them for "board and lodgings".

And rightly so! Its been done a few years ago I beleive. Some prisoner won thousands for some breach of his HR but lost it all when the Gvmt counted up the cost of his time inside.

[madwullie]

2 hours ago, glassnahalf said:

And rightly so! Its been done a few years ago I beleive. Some prisoner won thousands for some breach of his HR but lost it all when the Gvmt counted up the cost of his time inside.

That sounds pretty shocking to me tbh

[glassnahalf]

28 minutes ago, madwullie said:

That sounds pretty shocking to me tbh

Though it is pretty much what happens to honest people on the dole on the outside if they come into a bit of money...

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Though it is pretty much what happens to honest people on the dole on the outside if they come into a bit of money...

Nope, it's not.

[BB_Bino]

As someone who worked within a rehabilitation role over the prison estate for nearly 8 years (not a job I would recommend to people but that’s for another thread). It’s actually a topic I have experience on through debating it with prisoners.

In truth, Scottish Prisons reflect Scottish communities. If prisoners did have the right to vote, some would others wouldn’t. Some have knowledge on politics others would just cross a box with no info of knowledge on what they are voting for, but again, that happens in society.

It’s my belief, and I didn’t always have it, that Short Term prisoners (that’s a prisoner with a sentence of under 4 years) should have the right to vote. It is also my belief that a Long Term prisoner coming close to liberation, should have the right to vote.

These people have committed a crime, but also, they should be able to have a say on what type of society they are liberated back into. If you have the thoughts of “commit the crime, do the time” then you should also have he view that once the time is done, that person should be able to get on with the rest of their life, so why should they not have a say?

Also, sentencing in Scotland is changing. More and more and more crimes are now being dealt with by Home Detention Curfew or The Tag as it’s more commonly know by. This kind of brings me into this point:

During their term of imprisonment, convicts should not have the right to vote.  The jury/sheriff decided they were guilty of an offence and as such they lost their right to be part of a civilised society.  

So say me and you commit a low level offence and we go court but stand in front of 2 different Judges. 1 judge decides to send me to prison for 6 months and the other Judge decides to give you The Tag for 5 months. Why should you get to vote? You’re still guilty of an offence, you have still lost your liberty, it’s just the judge has decided that your punishment will be different due to the powers that he/she has.

This may seem like a ridiculous scenario to some but it happens on a weekly basis in Scottish/UK courts. Your punishment isn’t set in stone, it’s at a persons discretion.

You are 5 years too late.  In fact the sex offenders are more likely to be in fife now.

What prison is in Fife? Sex Offenders are predominately held in Glen Ochil now, this is where they can undergo programmes that target their type of offending, however, there are Sex Offenders throughout the prison estate for various reasons.

From my understanding most prisoners don't really care about getting the vote, but the chance of getting some compo...

That’s a myth that is peddled by the media. In my time in the job, very few prisoners claimed “compo” for things that they were entitled to, never mind anything else. Yes, you’ll always get the one that pushes the system and you’ll always get the one that tries to claim for this that and the other thing, but by and large these people are few and far between and not “most”. Like everyone else in society, most prisoners just settle into the system and get on with their lives without too much fuss.

[Peppino Impastato]

2 hours ago, Stinky Bone said:

I am still of the opinion that while in prison they should not be able to vote, part of their punishment.  Even when they are close to release, they should not be allowed a vote.  I can see your point that they will be back into society fairly soon, but if their sentence includes polling day then unfortunately they have missed out.  Tough luck.  If I happen to get arrested by the police on a Thursday and thrown into a cell, I don't get a cigarette never mind a vote.  Ban arrests on polling day?

If you happened to get jail and I got the tag, then that is a problem that the courts would have to sort.  Different Sheriffs having the same powers, but dealing out different punishments happens.  As I understand it, the tag is meant as an alternative to prison and I am of the opinion that tagged prisoners should not be allowed to vote either.  They are still serving a sentence and being punished.  

Going back to the victim.  The crime could last forever in the victims mind and have an impact on their lives for the rest of their days.  The convict has at least the chance to sort out their life once released, hopefully with remorse and not commit any more offences.    

I respect your opinion and you have more experience on this subject than me,  but I still believe that imprisonment is meant to be a punishment.  Rehabilitation of offenders is important, but I do not think allowing them to vote should be part of it.  I am happy to be proved wrong though. 

Aye but the punishment is loss of liberty not disenfranchisement.  You're kind of missing that.  Should they be starved too?  Denied medical treatment?

[NotThePars]

Not all crimes that are deemed worthy of prison are justified. I don’t think people that were sent to prison for possession of drugs should be deprived of their right to potentially vote for a party which would seek to decriminalise or legalise drugs for example.

[glassnahalf]

BB Bino,  I bow to your experience. However although you stated, probably correctly, that most prisoners just get their head down and get on with their sentence I think there is a minority that would claim. I am also writing from experience, a  very close relation of mine who is serving sentence after sentence makes no qualms about claiming for each and everything.  He has already had thousands awarded although he squandered it when he was out and has told me that even if he did have a vote he probably wouldn't use it although the compo would be useful.

 

[Peppino Impastato]

7 hours ago, NotThePars said:

Not all crimes that are deemed worthy of prison are justified. I don’t think people that were sent to prison for possession of drugs should be deprived of their right to potentially vote for a party which would seek to decriminalise or legalise drugs for example.

Why?  It wouldn't be applied retroactively

[NotThePars]

Why?  It wouldn't be applied retroactively

There’s a clear current of US political discourse that argues that marijuana legalisation has to be married with releasing everyone jailed for possession and selling offences. I’m fairly sure big Cynthia Nixon has argued for this as well.

[Peppino Impastato]

5 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

There’s a clear current of US political discourse that argues that marijuana legalisation has to be married with releasing everyone jailed for possession and selling offences. I’m fairly sure big Cynthia Nixon has argued for this as well.

 

I don't think that's plausible

[Highland Capital]

I accidentally read this as 'Votes for Pensioners' which is something each one of us, from across the political spectrum, will quite rightly oppose.

[welshbairn]

On 20/05/2018 at 16:09, glassnahalf said:

BB Bino,  I bow to your experience. However although you stated, probably correctly, that most prisoners just get their head down and get on with their sentence I think there is a minority that would claim. I am also writing from experience, a  very close relation of mine who is serving sentence after sentence makes no qualms about claiming for each and everything.  He has already had thousands awarded although he squandered it when he was out and has told me that even if he did have a vote he probably wouldn't use it although the compo would be useful.

 

I'm tempted to put the "Did you aye" meme up here but as it's been unjustly used against me before I won't bother.

[strichener]

On 5/20/2018 at 15:37, NotThePars said:

Not all crimes that are deemed worthy of prison are justified. I don’t think people that were sent to prison for possession of drugs should be deprived of their right to potentially vote for a party which would seek to decriminalise or legalise drugs for example.

It doesn't work like that, if you commit a crime that is punishable by prison then it is entirely justified if you end up in prison.  Your opinion on what constitutes justifiable imprisonment takes second place to the actual law.

[NotThePars]

It doesn't work like that, if you commit a crime that is punishable by prison then it is entirely justified if you end up in prison.  Your opinion on what constitutes justifiable imprisonment takes second place to the actual law.

Morally justified.