The future of the pyramid

[left half]

I'm amazed at how quiet things are on this site regarding the alleged influx of junior clubs to the EOS. Linked to this are suggestions for a WOS League coming in at level 6 with the idea that the SOSL would be relegated to level 7! Predominately, clubs coming into the WOS league will be Junior clubs. If you go on to the Junior League Pies and Bovril site, there is over 200 pages an this topic alone. Lets not stand still and allow our league to be bullied by the Juniors !!The discussion so far makes it look like a done deal.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

30 minutes ago, left half said:

I'm amazed at how quiet things are on this site regarding the alleged influx of junior clubs to the EOS. Linked to this are suggestions for a WOS League coming in at level 6 with the idea that the SOSL would be relegated to level 7! Predominately, clubs coming into the WOS league will be Junior clubs. If you go on to the Junior League Pies and Bovril site, there is over 200 pages an this topic alone. Lets not stand still and allow our league to be bullied by the Juniors !!The discussion so far makes it look like a done deal.

 

Can't be that surprising. There are ten times as many Juniors compared to the number of clubs in the SoSFL. That's not even taking in to account the levels of support of an individual club.

I would say that the SoSFL aren't exactly helping themselves. I'm not sure how active the EoSFL has been in recruiting clubs but when Clydebank were investigating their options after voting to go Senior, I remember a Clydebank poster dismissing the SoSFL. It wasn't because of the standard, it wasn't because of geography, it was because they had to pay to get in. Which is true, unlike the EoSFL or HFL, to enter the SoSFL you have to pay a bond. Now i'm sure if Bonnyton Thistle could pay it, it wouldn't be enough to scare off Clydebank. It's just not something that exactly encourages people through the door.

The mission statement for the league is amibiguous enough that it can justify its standing as the Tier 6 Western feeder for the Lowland League.

"To Develop, Foster, Co-Ordinate and Sustain Association Football at the Club and League level throughout South West Scotland".

It's just not going to stay there by doing nothing.

[info]

"throughout South West Scotland" Since when did Clydebank Kilmarnock et al move to Southwest Scotland? The Southern Counties FA should not be for the convenience of anybody and everybody and the bond was quite rightly put in place to discourage fly by night clubs. 

[Cyclizine]

"throughout South West Scotland" Since when did Clydebank Kilmarnock et al move to Southwest Scotland? The Southern Counties FA should not be for the convenience of anybody and everybody and the bond was quite rightly put in place to discourage fly by night clubs. 

If the SoSFL isn't prepared to be the West of Scotland equivalent to the EoSFL, then I don't think it's surprising that folk are talking about a new WoSFL with SoSFL potentially feeding in. It's inequitable in population terms for D&G to have a feeder direct to the Lowland League, particularly when so few teams are able to make the step up.

[craigkillie]

4 hours ago, info said:

"throughout South West Scotland" Since when did Clydebank Kilmarnock et al move to Southwest Scotland? The Southern Counties FA should not be for the convenience of anybody and everybody and the bond was quite rightly put in place to discourage fly by night clubs. 

The South of Scotland can't have it both ways.  If they want to continue to be a feeder to the Lowland League then they have to cover the entire western part of of the Lowlands.  If they want to only cover Dumfries and Galloway and the surrounding area (which is absolutely fair enough), then they have to accept that they will likely be a feeder league to a new West of Scotland League, which some current South of Scotland sides may join.

[info]

Agreed but you cant be a feeder league to a league that does not exist! So the onus is on West clubs to get themselves a proper league if they can agree amongst themselves and not try to come in the back door at the expense of a league which has worked hard and has been successful in providing football in this sparsely populated area. off course there will be South Clubs who want to and are in a position, progress but don't ruin a perfectly feasible league adding on additional expense to already tight budgets.  

[FairWeatherFan]

8 hours ago, craigkillie said:

The South of Scotland can't have it both ways.  If they want to continue to be a feeder to the Lowland League then they have to cover the entire western part of of the Lowlands.  If they want to only cover Dumfries and Galloway and the surrounding area (which is absolutely fair enough), then they have to accept that they will likely be a feeder league to a new West of Scotland League, which some current South of Scotland sides may join.

By accepting East Kilbride FC, Bonnyton Thistle and I think Edusport playing out of Hamilton in their first season, the SoSFL has shown that they are willing to be the West of Scotland feeder.

Doesn't make it fit for purpose, but if the SoSFL "wants to" they can argue their ground remaining at Tier 6 and trying to get a feeder league slotted underneath it.

[info]

I think a majority of the South clubs regret opening up their league to West clubs from a financial and logistic point of view. As I have stated before the original aim of the SOL was and still should be to foster and maintain football in the South West of Scotland. Over the years they have successfully achieved this. Clubs who wanted to and were able to sustain a higher grade of football were always able to do so.(Annan-Dalbeattie Star and Threaqve Rovers) and there is no reason to believe that this cannot continue without destroying what we have just now.

[left half]

My concern is that the SOSL are bullied out of their current level 6 tier by junior clubs who it seems are already deciding how a 'new' WOS setup should look.Glad to see a number of good responses on here.

 

[cmontheloknow]

2 hours ago, left half said:

My concern is that the SOSL are bullied out of their current level 6 tier by junior clubs who it seems are already deciding how a 'new' WOS setup should look.Glad to see a number of good responses on here.

 

You're quite contradictory in what you want. Do you want the SoS to be the equivalent of the EoS and feed into the LL direct, but cover all parts south of Fort William that EoS doesn't? That's what it would have to do, or else it exists alongside a new WoS League or is a level beneath it. That seems to be the 3 choices. The Juniors have got no joined up thinking on this as yet and who knows where any new league would go. I think the only thing people seem to agree on is that you (collectively) don't want more trips to Glasgow and the West sides wouldn't fancy the regular haul to D&G.

As a whole, the SoS has more in common with the Ayrshire District League than it does with the West Super Premier (in terms of player quality, player status - semi pro or amateur, crowds, facilities etc) . I'm not sure inertia and being in the right place at the right time means it stays where it is forever more. I wouldn't expect a side like Muirkirk to be pushing for the LL so there's no reason to expect Creetown to do so either. All clubs should live within their means and not do anything that could jeaopardise that. Does that not mean a bit of realism on behalf of committees and supporters? Mids could win the title this year - could they, even with a licence, compete in the LL, or the West Super Premier were that the next step up, or would the West Super First be a more natural fit as the next step?

So I ask again, what would you like to see? If you stay at L6, it is unlikely to be 'as is', no? If D&G can have its own L6 feeder (simply for being the only non-Junior league in the West of the country at the time of the pyramid's formation - an accident of both history and geography), why not Ayrshire, or Glasgow, or the Borders or Fife? A very rural and sparsely populated part of the country having 50% of the current prospects of LL promotion is disproportionate, even 33% (should there be a 3-way split) is.

[RedEd]

On 9/4/2018 at 08:06, info said:

"throughout South West Scotland" Since when did Clydebank Kilmarnock et al move to Southwest Scotland? The Southern Counties FA should not be for the convenience of anybody and everybody and the bond was quite rightly put in place to discourage fly by night clubs. 

Kilmarnock is very much in South-West Scotland. You might consider Ayrshire to be part of the central belt, but we don't. Besides Kilmarnock is closer to both Dumfries and Stranraer than these towns are to each other, as is Ayr.

I wouldn't call Bonnyton a fly by night club either. They were a boys club for probably 40 years before entering the SoS. They also have girls and disabled teams, so with all due respect to some of the teams in the league,  they have probably contributed more to football overall.

[Khufu2]

5 hours ago, left half said:

My concern is that the SOSL are bullied out of their current level 6 tier by junior clubs who it seems are already deciding how a 'new' WOS setup should look.Glad to see a number of good responses on here.

 

There is no way on earth the SOSL as it is now should have level 6 status in the longer term. Once the East Juniors move into the EOSL en bloc, probably 2019-20,  it will be immeasurably bigger and stronger than the  SOSL.

The EOSL has to be balanced by a WOSL.  Now it might well be that the SOSL ends up managing such a league, but it won't be a cosy little league for D&G.  It will be for the west central belt AND for the SW.  And the bulk of the big clubs will not be from D&G. I would like to see a WOSL created at level 6 with the licensed clubs in SOSL being guaranteed a place if they wish to take it up. Thereafter admission will be by application to start with. I think there are enough junior clubs in the west to fill a division at level 6 and one at level 7. There is an argument for the SOSL as it presently is (less, perhaps its licensed teams) being a regionalised division of the WOSL at level 7.

[mick90]

Too many assumptions about the `pyramid` ... which obviously has to adapt as it grows. Firstly, the concept of four divisions in SPFL is unsustainable, as well as totally unnecessary ... and they no longer have the SFA majority to keep it ... so that should be three divisions, or two and two regionalised ... everyone moves up a `tier` .... which also implies a 4th tier of three regions ... or four ... none of which likely to be the South.

The basic promise of `pyramid` is that it should include every club, inc ams and youth ... which implies that these have to join together into much larger clubs that can offer reasonable service and competition. That implies that everything the SFA has done on the subject should be scrapped ... and a `proper` commission set up to shape the new game and make new rules.

[FairWeatherFan]

13 minutes ago, mick90 said:

Too many assumptions about the `pyramid` ... which obviously has to adapt as it grows. Firstly, the concept of four divisions in SPFL is unsustainable, as well as totally unnecessary ... and they no longer have the SFA majority to keep it ... so that should be three divisions, or two and two regionalised ... everyone moves up a `tier` .... which also implies a 4th tier of three regions ... or four ... none of which likely to be the South.

The basic promise of `pyramid` is that it should include every club, inc ams and youth ... which implies that these have to join together into much larger clubs that can offer reasonable service and competition. That implies that everything the SFA has done on the subject should be scrapped ... and a `proper` commission set up to shape the new game and make new rules.

The format of the SPFL has nothing to do with the SFA. It'll only change if enough of the 42 members want it too. Even then it would have to be the right members due to the voting system they employ.

[Kernovian]

On 4/10/2018 at 16:27, Khufu2 said:

There is no way on earth the SOSL as it is now should have level 6 status in the longer term. Once the East Juniors move into the EOSL en bloc, probably 2019-20,  it will be immeasurably bigger and stronger than the  SOSL.

The EOSL has to be balanced by a WOSL.  Now it might well be that the SOSL ends up managing such a league, but it won't be a cosy little league for D&G.  It will be for the west central belt AND for the SW.  And the bulk of the big clubs will not be from D&G. I would like to see a WOSL created at level 6 with the licensed clubs in SOSL being guaranteed a place if they wish to take it up. Thereafter admission will be by application to start with. I think there are enough junior clubs in the west to fill a division at level 6 and one at level 7. There is an argument for the SOSL as it presently is (less, perhaps its licensed teams) being a regionalised division of the WOSL at level 7.

Just for once, I'm in full agreement with the 'Geezer from Giza'!

If a WoSL is created in the same manner as was the SLL, with direct entry for licenced clubs, then priority given to clubs closest to being, but not yet, licenced, it would really start to get the ball rolling.

Assuming most Junior West Region clubs buy into the idea, beneath this (16-team) division, I'd suggest there initially ad interim be set up two to four regional tier-7 divisions... In the best-case scenario, the SoSL being the Southern feeder, an Ayrshire division & two Central divisions, split geographically for best fit. If fewer clubs join, then a simple North/South or NW/NE/S set up would work.

These feeders (like next season's three EoSL feeders) ought for the following season create a Premier Division directly beneath the WoSL, with two/three regionals beneath. If specific clubs wish to remain outwith that PD, numbers would be normalised by taking next-best qualifiers, even if not from the same region. 

[Hossy87]

1 hour ago, Kernovian said:

Just for once, I'm in full agreement with the 'Geezer from Giza'!

If a WoSL is created in the same manner as was the SLL, with direct entry for licenced clubs, then priority given to clubs closest to being, but not yet, licenced, it would really start to get the ball rolling.

Assuming most Junior West Region clubs buy into the idea, beneath this (16-team) division, I'd suggest there initially ad interim be set up two to four regional tier-7 divisions... In the best-case scenario, the SoSL being the Southern feeder, an Ayrshire division & two Central divisions, split geographically for best fit. If fewer clubs join, then a simple North/South or NW/NE/S set up would work.

These feeders (like next season's three EoSL feeders) ought for the following season create a Premier Division directly beneath the WoSL, with two/three regionals beneath. If specific clubs wish to remain outwith that PD, numbers would be normalised by taking next-best qualifiers, even if not from the same region. 

The WoSL would be the level below the Lowland league and on par with the EoSL.

[Robert James]

On 04/06/2018 at 13:28, Kernovian said:

Just for once, I'm in full agreement with the 'Geezer from Giza'!

If a WoSL is created in the same manner as was the SLL, with direct entry for licenced clubs, then priority given to clubs closest to being, but not yet, licenced, it would really start to get the ball rolling.

Assuming most Junior West Region clubs buy into the idea, beneath this (16-team) division, I'd suggest there initially ad interim be set up two to four regional tier-7 divisions... In the best-case scenario, the SoSL being the Southern feeder, an Ayrshire division & two Central divisions, split geographically for best fit. If fewer clubs join, then a simple North/South or NW/NE/S set up would work.

These feeders (like next season's three EoSL feeders) ought for the following season create a Premier Division directly beneath the WoSL, with two/three regionals beneath. If specific clubs wish to remain outwith that PD, numbers would be normalised by taking next-best qualifiers, even if not from the same region. 

If the SoSL wants to remain as an independent league, it may be better to seek an agreement with the EoSL that it will become an 'East' regional feeder at tier 7.

And before I get ridiculed, I would point out that the SoSL & the EoSL meet regularly, and their clubs already play  each other in the SFA South Region Challenge Cup. Promotion from the SoSL to the EoSL, could (by agreement) be limited to one licensed** club only per season . Longer travel journeys would therefore be incurred ONLY by south clubs who want to progress and attain Tier 6 (or 5) status.

It would also be a safety net should the likes of Gretna & Dalbeattie be relegated from the Lowland, to the EoSL Premier Division, and then be relegated again, thereby re-entering the SoSL feeder league This would be at the same level as the (anticipated) EoSL South & Borders Division, and the Fife Division, with all 3  being at tier 7. It would retain the geographical autonomy of the SoSL, which is the wish of its member clubs who are not aspiring for Lowland League status.

It would also give Threave Rovers, Bonnyton, etc, a more acceptable promotion route to the Lowland (via the EoSL Premier), than a West League comprised of junior clubs, may offer. (The impression which has been given is that West Region Juniors view the SoSL, as being beneath them).

As for the West of Scotland proposed tier 6 pyramid league, the junior clubs who join would not have to travel to Dumfries & Galloway (except to Kello). A win/win situation for all ?  

(** currently 4 now Wigtown has rejoined the league.)

[The Speaking Pariah]

As many have suggested there is certainly some sense in the SoSFL becoming a regional feeder to the hypothetical WoSFL in the near future, or, as Robert J alluded to,  the rejuvenated EoSFL. Both ideas would of course relegate the whole structure of the SoSFL to Tier 7. Although understandable that would be unfortunate, imo.

I would put forward another possible, and probably more ridiculous,  long term solution for the South which would be dependent on the Lowland League automatically relegating the bottom two and the bottom third going into a play off.

The SoSFL would remain at Tier 6 alongside the WoSFL and EoSFL, albeit as a less than equal partner with regard to promotional places. Both champions of the WoSFL and EoSFL would gain automatic promotion to the Lowland League. The third bottom (LL) would join with both runners up of the WoSFL and EoSFL, respectively,  and the champions of the SoSFL in a four way play off for the third promotion place.

Both the WoSFL and EoSFL are both guaranteed one automatic promotion with a one in four chance of a second promotion each year.  In other words, both West and East would get no less than one promotion place with the possibly of a second each year.  The SoSFL would only have a one in four chance of one promotion each year.

I think this would be a viable solution for the teirs below the LL.  As another poster stated the SoSFL is an accident of history and geography. It should be respected and recognised as Tier 6 of the South West. It would retain the independence of the SoSFL within the pyramid without being "bullied" by the West or East.

Perhaps something similar could be adopted for the eventual tier 6 in the north.  The NCL could sit alongside the North juniors and the Tayside juniors below the Highland League.

 

 

 

[mcruic]

I believe the regionalisation should start below the Top 2 divisions in Scottish football, and should be 3-way (North, East, West) rather than the current not-fit-for-purpose "Highland/Lowland" divide.

I've outlined an "away-with-the-fairies" structure that would allow all 1000+ senior/junior/amateur/welfare clubs in Scotland to play in a 7-tier system on another thread:

http://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php?/topic/257156-road-to-progression/&tab=comments#comment-12226844

I've opted for a South Ayrshire/Galloway set up of 3 divisions, but this could just as easily be split into 2 if travelling was an issue.

At the moment, the "Lowland League" probably has a few teams that are not really Tier 5 material.  The Highland League has a few at the bottom end also (Fort William, Strathspey Thistle).  Meanwhile, the Juniors have many clubs who are Tier 5 and possibly Tier 4 material.  Certainly, if all these clubs were brought in, then it would be natural for other leagues to be moved down the pecking order.  And, the South of Scotland League is unarguably weaker in terms of playing strength than the top level of the juniors.  If the West of Scotland League were setup, then I'd expect that many South of Scotland teams would no longer be in the Top 2 tiers, as they wouldn't be strong enough.  The South league would fit naturally as a feeder to an expanded West League.  Most of the South of Scotland teams couldn't compete with the top West Juniors, so it wouldn't make sense for them to sit at the same level of the pyramid.

If we take an analogy from the North - if there were to be feeder leagues to the Highland League, we would expect there may be a North, a Moray (Central) and East feeders.  The geographically isolated leagues (Shetland, Orkney, Lewis & Harris, etc.) wouldn't just fit in at Tier 6 because they have always been independent (I'm thinking SoSFL in the South here).  They'd fit in at their appropriate level, based on playing strength (so, for example the Shetland league would be a feeder to a Tier 6 (North) league rather than a Tier 5 league.

 

I think arguing about whether the South of Scotland league should retain Tier 6 status or become Tier 7 is a moot point if no South clubs are willing or able to move up the pyramid to a less geographically-friendly league!  Only Threave seem to be interested.  If the SoSFL were at Tier 7, then Threave would get to Tier 5 if they showed they were strong enough in Tier 6 - if not, then it would the correct decision to have the SoSFL at Tier 7.  Also, SoSFL teams being promoted from Tier7 would have an intermediate-level geographical problem at Tier 6 (i.e the pyramid becomes less regionalised with every step up), so it could be a testing ground for how they might cope should they go up to the "full West" Tier 5.