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27 minutes ago, Peppino Impastato said:

It's alright for the UK to do that though eh.  The world should just take our word for it.  Remind me whereabouts in Iraq they found the WMD?

The OPCW have been testing samples in other countries. 

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This thread in summary. 

 

You cant trust Russia.

You cant trust UK.

The independent bodies can't  determine the source of the sample.

So make your own mind up, and shout at anyone who disagrees.

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18 hours ago, welshbairn said:

3. Litinvenko. The only countries I've heard found to have used chemo/bio/nuclear weapons covertly have been Russia and Israel. Israel were caught and had to send the antidote out to Jordan ASAP to get their agent released.

Litinvenko is considered to have been poisoned by someone adding polonium to his food. You're comparing apples with oranges.

Novichok is a nerve agent. If you're looking for a country that has form for using nerve agents as a modus operandi, try North Korea, who are suspected of having used the "VX" nerve agent to kill Kim Jong-nam (Kim Jong-un's half-brother) just over a year ago.

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4 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

Litinvenko is considered to have been poisoned by someone adding polonium to his food. You're comparing apples with oranges.

Novichok is a nerve agent. If you're looking for a country that has form for using nerve agents as a modus operandi, try North Korea, who are suspected of having used the "VX" nerve agent to kill Kim Jong-nam (Kim Jong-un's half-brother) just over a year ago.

Litvinvenko was a traitor in the eyes of Putin and he was killed in an exotic, and what turned out to be a very public way. Apples with apples. Why would NK want to kill a Russian traitor, or any other country than Russia? Sometimes the obvious is true. Anything is possible but I don't see any motive for other actors than the Russian State or actors within it going beyond their brief. The US had just charged a list of Russians associated with Putin with interfering with the US election, and they'd upped the sanctions. For anyone with a diabolical plan to carry out Salisbury hoping to blame Russia, what would they gain, at immense risk? 

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4 minutes ago, NewBornBairn said:

Cui bono?

If it had happened a month or so ago it might have firmed up Putin's support and increased turnout in his election, but I think it was simple revenge. Either Putin ordering it just because he could, or someone thinking it would please him and acting independently. Putin gave a try cosying up to the West, and got nothing in return apart from the coup in Ukraine. Backing Trump to get rid of the sanctions turned into a disaster. I don't think he gives a f**k anymore. And half the World will believe the Kremlin denials and spin.

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If it had happened a month or so ago it might have firmed up Putin's support and increased turnout in his election, but I think it was simple revenge. Either Putin ordering it just because he could, or someone thinking it would please him and acting independently. Putin gave a try cosying up to the West, and got nothing in return apart from the coup in Ukraine. Backing Trump to get rid of the sanctions turned into a disaster. I don't think he gives a f**k anymore. And half the World will believe the Kremlin denials and spin.


Bridget Kendall seems to think it’s A) a way of shushing opposition from outside Russia where he can’t deploy traditional state apparatus or B) a method of encouraging richer Russians to return home by suggesting that people either do what he says or suffer the consequences.

That’s not my opinion, just what I was listening to earlier.
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13 minutes ago, NewBornBairn said:

Russia told to do one by the OPCW 

This bit was good, Russia coming up with an alternate theory every day so nobody believes anything anymore, like they tried with the Malaysian Airliner.

Quote

He said that Russia had offered more than 24 "contradictory and changing counter-narratives" about the attack, including "preposterous" suggestions that Sweden, the US or Britain itself could have been responsible.

 

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5 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 


Bridget Kendall seems to think it’s A) a way of shushing opposition from outside Russia where he can’t deploy traditional state apparatus or B) a method of encouraging richer Russians to return home by suggesting that people either do what he says or suffer the consequences.

That’s not my opinion, just what I was listening to earlier.

 

It's the only way to explain using a method that if detected would hit all the headlines. I'm sure the FSB have less risky ways of killing people undetected at their disposal. A massive amount of Russian wealth has fled the country, and with the low oil and gas prices, and sanctions, they could do with a bit of it back.

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55 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

This bit was good, Russia coming up with an alternate theory every day so nobody believes anything anymore, like they tried with the Malaysian Airliner.

 

Putin has named this guy as the chief suspect

 

 

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22 hours ago, NewBornBairn said:

Cui bono?

I dont think so. Underneath all the charity pish he does seem enough of a c**t to do something like this but does he benefit from this in any way?

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On 04/04/2018 at 21:32, welshbairn said:

This bit was good, Russia coming up with an alternate theory every day so nobody believes anything anymore, like they tried with the Malaysian Airliner.

 

The thing is you need to look at the big picture. Russia, or rather Putin has in the last 6 months and the next few got some big things happening. 

Putin isn't sum idiot.  6 months or so ago he declares Russia chemical weapon free, while declaring the fact the US and allies are way behind on their commitment to do the same.  He then has a Presidency to keep, and when that is done a World Cup to host.  

So with all that in mind he orders an attack on foreign soil with some deadly chemical weapon (that has a 0/3 death rate might we add) in this time period...

Ask questions why has our Government categorically stated on live TV it was Russia and their experts say it was Russia then weeks later those Experts say they don't have a clue. 

We know Russia can be evil b*****ds but the UK have done just as much evil shit in their time and are not above lying to get what they want.

 

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Been away on hols and swerving the news, but the British lies and attempted coverup on this issue is scandalous and should see Johnson resign at the very least. He's a dangerous embarrassment. Not only is he on video claiming the nerve agent had been sourced to Russia, but the Foreign Office also tweeted as such only to delete it when Porton Down announced it wasn't possible to confirm this. They say it was deleted as it "didn't accurately report" the UK ambassador to Russia's words, when again he's on video saying what was in the tweet. Amateur stuff from the UK.

There are numerous other lies and mistruths is official statements on this, including relating to other known states who have produced this stuff. But this isn't about whether Russia did or didn't do it, it's about the Foreign Office lying to advance foreign policy, being rumbled, and trying to cover it up.  Again.

There's also the holes in the story arising from the fact that this nerve agent, which we're told is 10 times more potent than the VX which killed Kim Jong Nam in 20 minutes, took 4 hours to affect anyone and didn't kill any of them. Not exactly the work of an elite assassin.

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1 hour ago, Zetterlund said:

Been away on hols and swerving the news, but the British lies and attempted coverup on this issue is scandalous and should see Johnson resign at the very least. He's a dangerous embarrassment. Not only is he on video claiming the nerve agent had been sourced to Russia, but the Foreign Office also tweeted as such only to delete it when Porton Down announced it wasn't possible to confirm this. They say it was deleted as it "didn't accurately report" the UK ambassador to Russia's words, when again he's on video saying what was in the tweet. Amateur stuff from the UK.

There are numerous other lies and mistruths is official statements on this, including relating to other known states who have produced this stuff. But this isn't about whether Russia did or didn't do it, it's about the Foreign Office lying to advance foreign policy, being rumbled, and trying to cover it up.  Again.

There's also the holes in the story arising from the fact that this nerve agent, which we're told is 10 times more potent than the VX which killed Kim Jong Nam in 20 minutes, took 4 hours to affect anyone and didn't kill any of them. Not exactly the work of an elite assassin.

It's not surprising the FO fucked up with Boris in charge and the twitter boy trying to back up his boss. Porton Down stated they couldn't confirm the source a week before Boris botched the interview. I wouldn't call an obvious fuckup a cover up. Meanwhile the OPCW could have something to compare the samples with.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/06/uk-us-case-file-russian-nerve-agent-shikhany-spy-poisoning

http://old.themoscowtimes.com/sitemap/free/2006/7/article/suspect-captured-in-top-bankers-killing/203990.html/

https://sputniknews.com/russia/201804031063167359-russia-uk-toxic-substances-development-speculations/

Bear in mind the Russians are denying they ever produced the stuff.

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45 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

It's not surprising the FO fucked up with Boris in charge and the twitter boy trying to back up his boss. Porton Down stated they couldn't confirm the source a week before Boris botched the interview. I wouldn't call an obvious fuckup a cover up. Meanwhile the OPCW could have something to compare the samples with.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/06/uk-us-case-file-russian-nerve-agent-shikhany-spy-poisoning

http://old.themoscowtimes.com/sitemap/free/2006/7/article/suspect-captured-in-top-bankers-killing/203990.html/

https://sputniknews.com/russia/201804031063167359-russia-uk-toxic-substances-development-speculations/

Bear in mind the Russians are denying they ever produced the stuff.

It was certainly a fuckup to appoint Boris, but it's a stretch to suggest the separate false statements from both the foreign secretary and ambassador were innocent mistakes. It was the official line at the time, later exposed by the latest Porton Down statement.

As I understand it the Russians only deny any involvement with anything called 'novichok'. Interesting that whatever substance was used in 1995, and whether or not it's the same as the one used in Salisbury, it was at one point sold to criminals and can be made in a garage, which completely destroys the claim that only a state actor with sophisticated facilities could have pulled it off.

There are so many inconsistencies, assumptions, unanswered questions, omissions and blatant lies in the UK's official narrative that to try to pass it off as conclusive or even their favourite 'highly likely' is laughable. Their certainty despite all these things is the big red flag for me.

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2 hours ago, welshbairn said:

It's not surprising the FO fucked up with Boris in charge and the twitter boy trying to back up his boss. Porton Down stated they couldn't confirm the source a week before Boris botched the interview. I wouldn't call an obvious fuckup a cover up. Meanwhile the OPCW could have something to compare the samples with.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/06/uk-us-case-file-russian-nerve-agent-shikhany-spy-poisoning

http://old.themoscowtimes.com/sitemap/free/2006/7/article/suspect-captured-in-top-bankers-killing/203990.html/

https://sputniknews.com/russia/201804031063167359-russia-uk-toxic-substances-development-speculations/

Bear in mind the Russians are denying they ever produced the stuff.

I read it as they're denying they ever produced the stuff in Russia.  Granted it's a bit of pedantry that P&B would be proud of.   

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The sudden talent for advanced chemical engineering is coming to the top of several contributors. 

People who seem oblivious to how differing doses can have differing impacts. 

We live in an age of wonders. 

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