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Junior Clubs in the Senior Pyramid


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As the Junior clubs begin to move across to the seniors and begin the battle of trying to climb the Pyramid, I would like to ask how far, in the current set up of the senior leagues could Junior clubs go. Could any go all the way, in the next 10 years or so up to the Premiership or Championship? I think we will see a couple of ex Juniors in the SPFL at some point in next 10 to 15 years. These big Junior clubs that are talked about how far could they realistically go? 

 

I include those who don't want to move to the seniors like some of the west teams but I am interested to know how far any Junior club could go in the seniors.

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7 minutes ago, Doonhamer doon south said:

As the Junior clubs begin to move across to the seniors and begin the battle of trying to climb the Pyramid, I would like to ask how far, in the current set up of the senior leagues could Junior clubs go. Could any go all the way, in the next 10 years or so up to the Premiership or Championship? I think we will see a couple of ex Juniors in the SPFL at some point in next 10 to 15 years. These big Junior clubs that are talked about how far could they realistically go? 

They'd be no different to other part time clubs in the SPFL. Comfortable in League Two, wouldn't look out of place in League One and would struggle in the Championship.

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I'll be surprised if Kelty Hearts aren't in the seniors in five years time. A very well run club.

Long established "big" junior clubs like Bonnyrigg, Bo'ness and Linlithgow could all easily make League One too, with a bit of canny re-strucutring of the clubs internally.

It's going to be a vaery interesting couple of seasons as the grassroots (finally) moves towards an integrated pyramid and the few remaining nay sayers become even bigger fish in an even more stagnant pond.

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55 minutes ago, Doonhamer doon south said:

As the Junior clubs begin to move across to the seniors and begin the battle of trying to climb the Pyramid, I would like to ask how far, in the current set up of the senior leagues could Junior clubs go. Could any go all the way, in the next 10 years or so up to the Premiership or Championship? I think we will see a couple of ex Juniors in the SPFL at some point in next 10 to 15 years. These big Junior clubs that are talked about how far could they realistically go? 

 

I include those who don't want to move to the seniors like some of the west teams but I am interested to know how far any Junior club could go in the seniors.

Would be more interesting to ask how far a team from the SPL like say Hamilton Accies or Dundee could fall going the other way.

Could easily see Pollok playing a Clyde.

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I realise this is another pyramid thread and without wishing to add to the numerous other threads I have to give my thoughts on the comments above. 

I have often read about how junior clubs would hold there own in the senior leagues.... What I would like to know is what is this based on? I ask this as an intrigued neutral but someone who has played junior and coached in the pyramid.

From my experience there is a visible difference between the junior grade and the Senior grade, most of the differences lie in game intelligence and game management and in some cases sheer ability of the players at each level. Now if a junior club manages to get through the pyramid to senior they will attract better players and coaches and potentially in time become sustainable in the senior leagues, but to suggest in the current set up they would do well up until league one I don't think is realistic. 

For most it will take a Considerable period of adjustment, and expectations would have to be balanced. Again this is from my personal experience of the level of game intelligence and tactical understanding of both coaches and players currently plying their trade at senior level..... Something I have rarely seen or experienced in the junior game in 10 years of playing. 

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1 hour ago, G4Mac said:

I realise this is another pyramid thread and without wishing to add to the numerous other threads I have to give my thoughts on the comments above. 

I have often read about how junior clubs would hold there own in the senior leagues.... What I would like to know is what is this based on? I ask this as an intrigued neutral but someone who has played junior and coached in the pyramid.

From my experience there is a visible difference between the junior grade and the Senior grade, most of the differences lie in game intelligence and game management and in some cases sheer ability of the players at each level. Now if a junior club manages to get through the pyramid to senior they will attract better players and coaches and potentially in time become sustainable in the senior leagues, but to suggest in the current set up they would do well up until league one I don't think is realistic. 

For most it will take a Considerable period of adjustment, and expectations would have to be balanced. Again this is from my personal experience of the level of game intelligence and tactical understanding of both coaches and players currently plying their trade at senior level..... Something I have rarely seen or experienced in the junior game in 10 years of playing. 

Can you clarify your terminology of 'junior grade' and 'senior grade' because there are huge differences between say Pollok and Newmains in the 'Junior grade' and say Berwick Rangers and Tweedmouth Rangers in the 'senior grade'.

Most of the bigger Junior sides are made up of players who have played at a higher level, to a greater or lesser extent. Some play regional football by choice.

I do think if you transplanted the 8 Junior Cup quarter-finalists say into the LL, most would be at the upper end while most of that same selection would struggle in L2. I do think current strength of a Junior side is a complete straw man argument though as any team will attempt to put together a side that reflects its surroundings, to the best of their budget. Linlithgow Rose I think have so much potential and could easily rise up to be one of the best semi pro sides in the country, as proved by league table. That doesn't mean their current 1st XI could beat Dumbarton week in week out and emulate their league position in the Championship. Were they in that league, they would have access to a better standard of player. That goes for any team in any division - when Pollok got relegated, they had to sign up players who they might not have done in the league above. Had they stayed down, there would have been further erosion of the 'top division' standard - just look at the big names who plummeted down the leagues as budgets tightened. 

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1 hour ago, G4Mac said:

I realise this is another pyramid thread and without wishing to add to the numerous other threads I have to give my thoughts on the comments above. 

I have often read about how junior clubs would hold there own in the senior leagues.... What I would like to know is what is this based on? I ask this as an intrigued neutral but someone who has played junior and coached in the pyramid.

From my experience there is a visible difference between the junior grade and the Senior grade, most of the differences lie in game intelligence and game management and in some cases sheer ability of the players at each level. Now if a junior club manages to get through the pyramid to senior they will attract better players and coaches and potentially in time become sustainable in the senior leagues, but to suggest in the current set up they would do well up until league one I don't think is realistic. 

For most it will take a Considerable period of adjustment, and expectations would have to be balanced. Again this is from my personal experience of the level of game intelligence and tactical understanding of both coaches and players currently plying their trade at senior level..... Something I have rarely seen or experienced in the junior game in 10 years of playing. 

As others have said clubs in the pyramid are already "senior" but its a trivial point and I know what you mean.

Of course a current junior side could eventually move into the SPFL and stay there and perhaps eventually move up the leagues, its something we'll never know the answer to until it happens. Lots of factors to take into account if they were from a decent enough sized town a chance to build on crowds, people more willing to invest money into the club perhaps another Ross County in the making or God forbid another Gretna.

Looking at Edinburgh City, of course not a junior side apart from a spell in the 50s, who are the only side who have ever won promotion there are only 2 or 3 players left at the club from their non league days.

City were a more than decent LL side winning it 2 years in a row but have had to mostly change their squad in their 2 seasons in the SPFL and that's just to stay in the bottom half of the table so there is a difference playing wise.

Annan have done ok considering that they were a mid table EOSL side when they came into the league but like City they soon made changes to the squad. Its all about adapting to a new league I suppose.

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I was attempting to speak regarding the teams towards the top end of the junior grade, I didn't think the OP was for one second suggesting teams in the lower end of the junior structure could hold their own.

What I was attempting to get over was that many junior fans believe they are as good as some teams playing in the lowland league and/or league Two. I personally disagree with this, although I concede that there are the odd team in the LL that the top junior sides would currently turn over weekly (and be better in the pyramid).  I concur that the top junior sides have some very experienced talented players, undoubtedly. However, most of the senior sides I have watched (both lowland and league two) have a far greater level of game intelligence, tactical understanding and more styles of play than the junior sides I have observed. 

I believe junior sides will be able to achieve this level with the right direction and in time, but at this stage I believe this is the main difference, particularly when thinking of teams in league Two. 

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Sorry for yet "another pyramid thread". My reason is on the other threads i read talk of big fish in wee pond, of teams like talbot ,but it makes me think well what level would they and others be comfortable at? I seen that Edinburgh United are looking at jumping across but as they are little bit down the junior leagues would they be likely to get out of EOS. I have no idea and you, the junior fans, know more than me about it. 

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43 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

I was attempting to speak regarding the teams towards the top end of the junior grade, I didn't think the OP was for one second suggesting teams in the lower end of the junior structure could hold their own.

What I was attempting to get over was that many junior fans believe they are as good as some teams playing in the lowland league and/or league Two. I personally disagree with this, although I concede that there are the odd team in the LL that the top junior sides would currently turn over weekly (and be better in the pyramid).  I concur that the top junior sides have some very experienced talented players, undoubtedly. However, most of the senior sides I have watched (both lowland and league two) have a far greater level of game intelligence, tactical understanding and more styles of play than the junior sides I have observed. 

I believe junior sides will be able to achieve this level with the right direction and in time, but at this stage I believe this is the main difference, particularly when thinking of teams in league Two. 

Taking the top 4 in the LL (EK, Spartans, BSC, Shire), they're pretty much all full of players who have played Junior and two of them (BSC/Shire) managed by former Junior players. What is it that makes these clubs a cut above their Junior equivalent? At a very quick glance, BSC have 10 players who played junior last season, and not all in top division. Fewer at EK but I think they have acted as a hoover to suck up talent falling out of SPFL - their ex Seniors would have gone Junior 10 years ago.

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12 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Taking the top 4 in the LL (EK, Spartans, BSC, Shire), they're pretty much all full of players who have played Junior and two of them (BSC/Shire) managed by former Junior players. What is it that makes these clubs a cut above their Junior equivalent? At a very quick glance, BSC have 10 players who played junior last season, and not all in top division. Fewer at EK but I think they have acted as a hoover to suck up talent falling out of SPFL - their ex Seniors would have gone Junior 10 years ago.

I suppose the proof of the pudding will be next year when Kelty will in all likelihood be in the Lowland League.  Having watched all of the sides involved there, I'd genuinely be shocked if they don't at least challenge their first year in.

In terms of where current Juniors might end up in the Pyramid  eventually, there are maybe half a dozen clubs that could perhaps in time sustain SPFL football at League Two level, League One at a push but no further - potential sugar daddies aside - the main constraining factors being the size of the communities many of them represent, and for the city clubs the pre-existence of major clubs in the set-up already.

I don't think anyone's naive enough to think that any current Junior team could make it in the SPFL without a major squad turnover before they stepped up.

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