Sectarianism

[The_Kincardine]

On 3/14/2018 at 08:12, The DA said:

Scottish football accused of sweeping sectarianism under carpet

Does anyone really believe anything will come of this?  

I had a read through that piece.  Something that stood out was, "BBC Scotland has also learned that delegates have reported at least four clubs to league bosses this season alone for fans singing offensive or sectarian songs."

So why post it in this part of the forum since the piece you referred to indicates it's not confined to the cheeks?  Not a criticism btw.

On 3/14/2018 at 08:41, gannonball said:

No, I dont believe they are. What needs to be established first though is what is deemed sectarian and what is not, far too many people and media outlets are dishing out accusations of it when it hasn't been the case. Once we know what songs/chants are then we start talking about punishment. 

I agree with this but you won't get much traction on here.  There are at least 3 threads running about this subject and the general view seems to be, "We know what sectarianism is and we don't like it but the clubs who profit from it aren't prepared to do anything about it."

If I gauge the temperature of P&B aright they regard the following as sectarian:

-Any songs/chants about ******s
-Any songs/chants about the 1688 Williamite revolution
-Any kind of FTP reference

Posters reserve the right to use 'the H word' as that's not sectarian.  Apparently.

On 3/15/2018 at 09:57, Jacksgranda said:

Singing songs eulogising the IRA is not sectarian, just offensive.

The IRA was clearly a sectarian organisation.  You know this.  I don't think it's hard to make a case for IRA-supporting songs to be seen as sectarian.

So if I look at my own club's songs/chants I'd, generally, prefer us to be singing about the team/club/history but @gannonballraised a fair point about defining the problem so I'll have a go:

-Songs/chants about ******s/****** blood should be proscribed.  I'd rather we were up to our knees in EBTs. This is a no-brainer.
-Songs/chants about Loyalist organisations (YCV, UVF, UDA et al) should be proscribed.  Some terrific tunes there but not in 21st C Scotland at a football game
-Any FTP reference should be proscribed.  Not that it's at all sectarian - telling the leader of a religious group to GTF is fair comment - but it is socially unacceptable
-Bobby Sands needs to be allowed to rest quietly in his grave.

OTOH Unionist Lite songs such as The Sash and Derry's Walls exercise many diddies on here but they are entirely innocuous and I don't see any need for them to be culled.

However, we are all posting on a forum which actively encourages a sectarian slur.  I suggest that P&B is part of the problem.

[The OP]

9 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

 

However, we are all posting on a forum which actively encourages a sectarian slur.  I suggest that P&B is part of the problem.

Eh?

[Jacksgranda]

9 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

 

The IRA was clearly a sectarian organisation.  You know this.  I don't think it's hard to make a case for IRA-supporting songs to be seen as sectarian.

 

The IRA killed as many Roman Catholics as they did Protestants, they were just a murder machine, but I wouldn't class them as a sectarian murder machine, unlike the UVF who murdered Roman Catholics for the crime of being Roman Catholics. (They also killed a good few Protestants but those were mostly internal "house cleaning".)

I'm not denying that the IRA murdered a lot of Protestants, most of whom were part time members of the security forces, and most of whom were off duty, but they were murdered because they were members of the security forces, not because they were Protestants. I suppose I could be accused of dancing on the head of a pin here, but that's my take on it.

So, to reiterate, in my opinion, singing songs about supporting/lauding/praising the IRA is not sectarian, just grossly offensive.

[Bairnardo]

13 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

 

OTOH Unionist Lite songs such as The Sash and Derry's Walls exercise many diddies on here but they are entirely innocuous and I don't see any need for them to be culled.

However, we are all posting on a forum which actively encourages a sectarian slur.  I suggest that P&B is part of the problem.

The last two lines pretty much render you a walloper tbh.  What's the need for them to be sung at the football? Religious/political point scoring.  As we have discussed, and at least one Celtic fan agreed, this is the root of the problem and arguing about whether or not it is "sectarian" ignores the fact that it has absolutely no place being sung at the football. 

On the last point, clearly you are one that wants to define what is/isn't sectarian rather than everyone being told to keep all of their religious shite away from the match, explain to me why me calling Rangers fans **** is sectarian.

[The_Kincardine]

13 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

The last two lines pretty much render you a walloper tbh.  What's the need for them to be sung at the football? Religious/political point scoring.  As we have discussed, and at least one Celtic fan agreed, this is the root of the problem and arguing about whether or not it is "sectarian" ignores the fact that it has absolutely no place being sung at the football. 

On the last point, clearly you are one that wants to define what is/isn't sectarian rather than everyone being told to keep all of their religious shite away from the match, explain to me why me calling Rangers fans **** is sectarian.

1. Not all football chants/songs need be about football.  I think you'd agree with me.  The songs I quoted may have a political element but so what?  They are innocuous and inoffensive.

2. You don't apply The H Word to Rangers fans.  As I said recently, you defined it as someone who has the characteristic, "to hate Celtic but not Rangers".  So don't be more of a fool than you are.  We all know it's a sectarian term.

[The OP]

Naw we don’t.

[Bairnardo]

6 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

1. Not all football chants/songs need be about football.  I think you'd agree with me.  The songs I quoted may have a political element but so what?  They are innocuous and inoffensive.

2. You don't apply The H Word to Rangers fans.  As I said recently, you defined it as someone who has the characteristic, "to hate Celtic but not Rangers".  So don't be more of a fool than you are.  We all know it's a sectarian term.

No we don't. You seem keen to use the definition of sectarianism to endorse certain songs, so it's best that you clearly define the sectarian nature of my/others use of the word. 

Whether you like it or not, the Old Firm carry much more weight of responsibility that Montrose or Arbroath, and due to number of fans both in and out of the Stadium, your conduct impacts Scottish society. The fact that you will use semantics to justify songs which are all about religious divisiveness is as huge part of the issue here, and religious diviseness will be alive and well in our siciety until this changes. Genuinely unsure why you can't acknowledge that. 

Do you not cringe at the thought of a young Rangers fan asking his dad to teach him the words to the Sash because he heard it at the football, and then teach him what it's all about?

[Newbornbairn]

49 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

I had a read through that piece.  Something that stood out was, "BBC Scotland has also learned that delegates have reported at least four clubs to league bosses this season alone for fans singing offensive or sectarian songs."

Means nothing without numbers. In all likelihood it's probably Rangers x 20, Celtic x 20, Team A x 1, Team B x 1 but that's enough for some to claim it's not just the bigot sisters to blame. 

[The_Kincardine]

2 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

The fact that you will use semantics to justify songs which are all about religious divisiveness is as huge part of the issue here, and religious diviseness will be alive and well in our siciety until this changes. Genuinely unsure why you can't acknowledge that. 

I have absolutely no interest in religious divisiveness.  I'm not the one to use sectarian terms on here.  You, OTOH, habitually use the 'H Word' and have defined it in terms other than 'A term for Rangers' fans'.

You are part of the problem.

[Bairnardo]

Just now, The_Kincardine said:

I have absolutely no interest in religious divisiveness.  I'm not the one to use sectarian terms on here.  You, OTOH, habitually use the 'H Word' and have defined it in terms other than 'A term for Rangers' fans'.

You are part of the problem.

I think I called MJC a ***, MJC is clearly a *** so no issues there. Even if I did offer up my own definition of the word, and defined it as something other than "rangers fan", you still have to show that as being sectarian. You will of course, be unable to do so.

 If you can provide one shred of evidence that I have ever mentioned someones religion, or even posted something sectarian then please post it here in big bold letters so everyone can see it. 

 

[The_Kincardine]

52 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

The IRA killed as many Roman Catholics as they did Protestants, they were just a murder machine, but I wouldn't class them as a sectarian murder machine, unlike the UVF who murdered Roman Catholics for the crime of being Roman Catholics. (They also killed a good few Protestants but those were mostly internal "house cleaning".)

I've no doubt that the The Ra killed people for the crime of being Protestant. I can't see them as being other than a sectarian organisation.

31 minutes ago, The OP said:

I’m just confused about how the forum actively encourages the use of the slur when I’ve had a warning for (I think) calling Aberdeen supporters “hunnish” for banging on about paedophilia. The warning definitely was “hunnish is not acceptable.”

That you used such a term is to your demerit.  That you were pulled up for it is good news and I applaud the Mod who took you to task.  I also recall @Diva few years back stating that the word was proscribed and saying something like, "Don't hide behind the swear filter".

So can we all agree that sectarian terms of abuse on P&B are unacceptable and that this one should be the removed from our collective vocabulary?

[Dundee Hibernian]

Fancy folk debating the niceties of certain songs being sung at football, for the reason of causing offence, and arguing whether these songs are sectarian or not.

 

It's football, why sing these songs, which are causing a diversion  from how shite the sport has become in the country? Football has become even more of a vehicle for maladjusted Scots than it ever was before. 

[Bairnardo]

1 hour ago, The_Kincardine said:

 

However, we are all posting on a forum which actively encourages a sectarian slur.  I suggest that P&B is part of the problem.

 

10 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

That you used such a term is to your demerit.  That you were pulled up for it is good news and I applaud the Mod who took you to task.  I also recall @Diva few years back stating that the word was proscribed and saying something like, "Don't hide behind the swear filter".

So can we all agree that sectarian terms of abuse on P&B are unacceptable and that this one should be the removed from our collective vocabulary?

Contradicting yourself here a wee bit....

Still, since you are still unable to demonstrate why the word is sectarian, perhaps Div banned it because of all the childish pish it demonstrably causes.

[Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo]

It wasn't unacceptable when Mark Hateley was playing up front. What's changed? 

[The OP]

17 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

 

So can we all agree that sectarian terms of abuse on P&B are unacceptable and that this one should be the removed from our collective vocabulary?

I agree. If someone uses a sectarian term of abuse against you please let me know *** x

[The OP]

Mind when the stupid, skint **** tried to argue that *** was originally used by **** to describe celtic supporters? 

Apparently *** is sectarian though.

[Melanius Mullarkey]

Are the three stars here for the League 2, League 1 and Championship victories?

[The_Kincardine]

Looks like the P&B bigots are desperate to cling on to their favourite religious slur.

[Bairnardo]

Just now, The_Kincardine said:

Looks like the P&B bigots are desperate to cling on to their favourite religious slur.

Another post, another failure to demonstrate why it is sectarian. Expect nothing less from the man who posted

"-Songs/chants about Loyalist organisations (YCV, UVF, UDA et al) should be proscribed.  Some terrific tunes there but not in 21st C Scotland at a football game"

Imagine being this bothered about someone who has zero interest in anyones religion callling **** ****, but avidly defenedng the singing of the Sash and Derrys walls.

You are the problem. Thankfully no one will ever hear you singing from your armchair.

[The DA]

4 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Looks like the P&B bigots are desperate to cling on to their favourite religious slur.

Can we call Rangers fans 'Sevconians' then?  Or will that soon become a sectarian term too?