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Bonnyrigg Rose should they stay or should they go...


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1 minute ago, The Moonster said:

What exactly about Boghead meant that it had "soul"?

Can I help you out here, have a wee look at the definition of soul before answering.

Kidding you on, M.

Out of curiousity are you not a bit worried with this talk of pyramids. A couple of bad seasons and the likes of the Sons of the Rock might be playing Clydebank again.

In the Lowland League.

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And potentially that is where the problem is.  Self preservation. Surely we should be looking at it for the benefit though. Am sure TJ could be relocated to another job within the new structure as it evolves.  

Doing nothing means change will happen without his involvement, he needs to embrace it or possibly put himself and the juniors at risk. 

A split within the juniors on the way forward has already happened with east and west clubs. My other worry is TJ May be sitting in his glass house not to worried due to there not being a big push for change from west clubs. That again could be his down fall as the east falls apart.

 

At the risk of sounding harsh - Nah, f**k him! What would TJs prehistoric attitudes bring to the table? The likelihood is absolutely nothing! In my opinion...

 

He’s dined out on Junior football for many a year and has had more than his slice of the Junior pie, whilst chairing an organisation that have sat back and allowed the grade to stagnate, clubs to fold, the top prize to be unable to even attract a sponsor these days, and the annual farce of the associations under his umbrella being consistently unable to draw up a full seasons fixture list.

 

Again though, the above perhaps sounds harsh, and I’m not naive enough to think that TJ hasn’t probably put a lot of work, effort and his time into the Juniors. However there comes a point when enough is enough and you have to admit defeat and tell him ‘Thanks, but cheerio!’

 

The fact that the primary reason many of the clubs considering jumping to the Pyramid are doing so in the search for sustainability, with success as an afterthought, says it all really.

 

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Kidding you on, M.
Out of curiousity are you not a bit worried with this talk of pyramids. A couple of bad seasons and the likes of the Sons of the Rock might be playing Clydebank again.
In the Lowland League.


That is the general idea of a pyramid.
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2 hours ago, newcastle broon said:

But if ALL Junior clubs came under one association and it means so much to certain clubs just now surely you could still have a junior cup from a certain level of the pyramid down similar to the Challenge Cup just now  ? 

An all in cup excluding the spfl league teams? Great idea. Call it the junior cup. I bet it would get a sponsor too.

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1 hour ago, Glenconner said:

Kidding you on, M.

Out of curiousity are you not a bit worried with this talk of pyramids. A couple of bad seasons and the likes of the Sons of the Rock might be playing Clydebank again.

In the Lowland League.

Not worried at all. If that happens to us, and there's plenty chance it could, I'll be happy enough having a team to support. 10 years ago I watched us finish 2nd bottom of the 3rd Division, I'm under no illusions how easy it is to fall. That's what football is all about though, I wouldn't enjoy the highs of finishing just outside promotion play-offs in the 2nd tier as much if I didn't need to suffer the lows of watching us lose every week in the lowest tier. If I wanted glory every week I'd watch Celtic from my sofa like just about everyone else in my town.

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2 hours ago, db11 said:

 Dumbarton soulless??

Not the last time I was there

Great night - C'mon the Rose!!!

Arguably one of the greatest nights in the clubs history, and one of the greatest nights to be a fan of the “Big Rose”

 

Result  will remain in the history books for many’s a year.  One to tell the grandchildren when they come along.

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44 minutes ago, 8MileBU said:

 

At the risk of sounding harsh - Nah, f**k him! What would TJs prehistoric attitudes bring to the table? The likelihood is absolutely nothing! In my opinion...

 

He’s dined out on Junior football for many a year and has had more than his slice of the Junior pie, whilst chairing an organisation that have sat back and allowed the grade to stagnate, clubs to fold, the top prize to be unable to even attract a sponsor these days, and the annual farce of the associations under his umbrella being consistently unable to draw up a full seasons fixture list.

 

Again though, the above perhaps sounds harsh, and I’m not naive enough to think that TJ hasn’t probably put a lot of work, effort and his time into the Juniors. However there comes a point when enough is enough and you have to admit defeat and tell him ‘Thanks, but cheerio!’

 

The fact that the primary reason many of the clubs considering jumping to the Pyramid are doing so in the search for sustainability, with success as an afterthought, says it all really.

 

A get the sustainability decision for clubs to jump currently.  However, are the current financial incentives sustainable though?

If more clubs jump does the pot increase or decrease and spread thinner, on a more clubs less finance basis?

A would suggest the Cowdenbeaths, Arbroaths, Elgins and Albion Rovers dont want an influx of junior teams getting a piece of the pie.

And to that end I can see the  SFA close the door on clubs jumping soon.  I would actually accept that if they also give a time frame they need to stick to and come up with a restructure to be implemented.  Change is required no doubt but the fragmented non structured way things are happening at the moment is not the way forward.  

 As for TJ like any walk of life you embrace change or your left behind when it eventually comes.  The lack of leadership and direction from him currently is already answering that statement for me.

 

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At the risk of sounding harsh - Nah, f**k him! What would TJs prehistoric attitudes bring to the table? The likelihood is absolutely nothing! In my opinion...
 
He’s dined out on Junior football for many a year and has had more than his slice of the Junior pie, whilst chairing an organisation that have sat back and allowed the grade to stagnate, clubs to fold, the top prize to be unable to even attract a sponsor these days, and the annual farce of the associations under his umbrella being consistently unable to draw up a full seasons fixture list.
 
Again though, the above perhaps sounds harsh, and I’m not naive enough to think that TJ hasn’t probably put a lot of work, effort and his time into the Juniors. However there comes a point when enough is enough and you have to admit defeat and tell him ‘Thanks, but cheerio!’
 
The fact that the primary reason many of the clubs considering jumping to the Pyramid are doing so in the search for sustainability, with success as an afterthought, says it all really.
 


I hate to admit it but I agree with this.
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9 minutes ago, bluebell1 said:

A get the sustainability decision for clubs to jump currently.  However, are the current financial incentives sustainable though?

If more clubs jump does the pot increase or decrease and spread thinner, on a more clubs less finance basis?

A would suggest the Cowdenbeaths, Arbroaths, Elgins and Albion Rovers dont want an influx of junior teams getting a piece of the pie.

And to that end I can see the  SFA close the door on clubs jumping soon.  I would actually accept that if they also give a time frame they need to stick to and come up with a restructure to be implemented.  Change is required no doubt but the fragmented non structured way things are happening at the moment is not the way forward.  

 As for TJ like any walk of life you embrace change or your left behind when it eventually comes.  The lack of leadership and direction from him currently is already answering that statement for me.

 

Re the sfa closing the door, it would take some balls for the country's governing body to hoy hundreds of clubs onto the scrap heap. 

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It's not even clear what the SFA "closing the door" would involve in practice.  Are you suggesting that they are going to ban new clubs from joining the EoS or SoS leagues?  Or allow teams to join those leagues, but ban them from promotion unless they were members before a certain year?  Neither of those things are remotely practical, and won't happen.  The licensing requirements for Tier 6 might begin to get stricter, but by that point I would expect there to be a Tier 7 and maybe even a Tier 8 where new clubs could join and work towards licensing.

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20 minutes ago, bluebell1 said:

A get the sustainability decision for clubs to jump currently.  However, are the current financial incentives sustainable though?

If more clubs jump does the pot increase or decrease and spread thinner, on a more clubs less finance basis?

A would suggest the Cowdenbeaths, Arbroaths, Elgins and Albion Rovers dont want an influx of junior teams getting a piece of the pie.

And to that end I can see the  SFA close the door on clubs jumping soon.  I would actually accept that if they also give a time frame they need to stick to and come up with a restructure to be implemented.  Change is required no doubt but the fragmented non structured way things are happening at the moment is not the way forward.  

 As for TJ like any walk of life you embrace change or your left behind when it eventually comes.  The lack of leadership and direction from him currently is already answering that statement for me.

 

The SFA are not going to close the door to clubs joining the Pyramid or becoming Licenced and creating a closed shop again, that would bring unwelcome attention from UEFA.

Regarding finance, nobody knows the future I suppose.   I think I’m correct in saying that payments in the early rounds of the Scottish Cup have doubled.  If I remember right it used to be £2k for a first round defeat when Junior clubs first entered 10 years ago, it’s now upto £5k.  The annual payment is dependent on SFA profits I believe, last year it was £12k to Licenced clubs in the EoS.  It goes up and down, but looking on the bright side, should Scotland ever qualify for a Finals again then that would see a massive rise in profit which would have a positive effect on payments, there’s now also a UEFA central TV deal in place for qualifying matches, which means a substantial guaranteed income for the SFA.

What will happen eventually is the structure of the Scottish Cup early rounds will change to accommodate these newly Licenced clubs, but it’s not going to happen tomorrow as Junior clubs first need to join the Pyramid, then go through the Licencing process. It takes time (and money), and in the meantime perhaps new improved sponsorship deals will happen eg William Hill.

In the short term I don’t think much will change.

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The way I see it just now the SFA dont want all the junior clubs jumping ship.  They want the big clubs Boness, Bonnyrigg, Pollok, Auchinleck etc but they need to consider all clubs.

Nobody would be getting put on scrap heap stopping the current situation would only be acceptable if they then produced an agreed structure for all within an agreed time frame for all clubs.  Am no holding my breath as as you say that takes balls and leadership.  We wont get a democratic agreement as if every association and club have there say we will never agree.  The governing body should take the lead and implement the restructure.  Then whatever they come up which would need to disband associations and bring everyone into one.  Clubs could agree to be part of it or not.

 

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6 minutes ago, bluebell1 said:

The way I see it just now the SFA dont want all the junior clubs jumping ship.  They want the big clubs Boness, Bonnyrigg, Pollok, Auchinleck etc but they need to consider all clubs.

What gives you that impression?  the SFA very rarely comment publicly on the Pyramid and I don't see anything in SJFA notes on these meetings suggesting such a feeling.  The only thing I can see them moving on is removing Licences from clubs who hold them but continue to sit outside the Pyramid.

 

6 minutes ago, bluebell1 said:

Nobody would be getting put on scrap heap stopping the current situation would only be acceptable if they then produced an agreed structure for all within an agreed time frame for all clubs.  Am no holding my breath as as you say that takes balls and leadership.  We wont get a democratic agreement as if every association and club have there say we will never agree.  The governing body should take the lead and implement the restructure.  Then whatever they come up which would need to disband associations and bring everyone into one.  Clubs could agree to be part of it or not.

 

They should be leading a review and implementation of a WoSFL, but currently they're not but neither do I think they would oppose a club lead initiative to make it happen.  Problem is the SJFA are talking to them on this matter, and they probably don't have any inkling of the feelings of Junior clubs, only TJ & Co's opinion. Never a recipe for progress.

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Need to keep in mind that, settingfinance apart, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with integration. 

If the only thing that happened was that Whitehill and Bonnyrigg didn't have to drive past each other to play other teams every single week then that's a good thing. 

If the west set up was integrated under Tier 5 but with zero additional finance guaranteed, what's changed other than that you can now move up to a licenced environment where there are financial attractions. 

The north should be the problem - not the west because half the teams at tier 5 are shite and there is no significant depth to deal with that. 

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6 hours ago, Van magic said:


Exactly what i said the lack of movement suggests they ain’t too fussed unless a big west name pushes for it!


Chances of a game the morra?

Park heavy but definitely playable at moment. Depends on overnight weather but would say should definately be ON

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25 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

The SFA are not going to close the door to clubs joining the Pyramid or becoming Licenced and creating a closed shop again, that would bring unwelcome attention from UEFA.

Regarding finance, nobody knows the future I suppose.   I think I’m correct in saying that payments in the early rounds of the Scottish Cup have doubled.  If I remember right it used to be £2k for a first round defeat when Junior clubs first entered 10 years ago, it’s now upto £5k.  The annual payment is dependent on SFA profits I believe, last year it was £12k to Licenced clubs in the EoS.  It goes up and down, but looking on the bright side, should Scotland ever qualify for a Finals again then that would see a massive rise in profit which would have a positive effect on payments, there’s now also a UEFA central TV deal in place for qualifying matches, which means a substantial guaranteed income for the SFA.

What will happen eventually is the structure of the Scottish Cup early rounds will change to accommodate these newly Licenced clubs, but it’s not going to happen tomorrow as Junior clubs first need to join the Pyramid, then go through the Licencing process. It takes time (and money), and in the meantime perhaps new improved sponsorship deals will happen eg William Hill.

In the short term I don’t think much will change.

If that's the kind of money that's floating around, and you have a license,then its a dun deal that the Bonnyrigg  Officials will win the day and move to the E of S. next season..Dont know what they will adopt as their club badge because the 1881 one will be redundant...and I hope this time that they Register/Copyright the new badge and stop any other team from using it like happens at the moment.....

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1 minute ago, BENJI BOY said:

If that's the kind of money that's floating around, and you have a license,then its a dun deal that the Bonnyrigg  Officials will win the day and move to the E of S. next season..Dont know what they will adopt as their club badge because the 1881 one will be redundant...and I hope this time that they Register/Copyright the new badge and stop any other team from using it like happens at the moment.....

1881 redundant?

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1 minute ago, Burnie_man said:

1881 redundant?

Well its a brave new era for the club, now Senior and leaving its junior heritage behind....Start with a fresh logo/badge for the Senior ranks..Everyone wants them to be bold,then go all the way,and don't hang on to the past.

 

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9 minutes ago, BENJI BOY said:

Well its a brave new era for the club, now Senior and leaving its junior heritage behind....Start with a fresh logo/badge for the Senior ranks..Everyone wants them to be bold,then go all the way,and don't hang on to the past.

 

Weren't Bonnyrigg a Senior club when they were founded, playing in the Scottish Cup, before going Junior?

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2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Weren't Bonnyrigg a Senior club when they were founded, playing in the Scottish Cup, before going Junior?

Bonnyrigg  became the Rose in 1881 when the original Bonnyrigg team---- the Swifts---joined the junior ranks in theMidlothian league according to their official history..unlike PenicuikAth and Boness  both Senior clubs in the real meaning of the word in their early days..They were the first team to win the present East of Scotland Cup in 1897...but they have been junior all that time.....unlike others who floated back and forward in the many Leagues in these days.

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