West Region

[boulderdomb]

Wouldn't it make sense to start getting midweek fixtures scheduled now too? Rather than leaving major chaos until the close of the season, why not have organised chaos until the backlog goes down?

[glensmad]

To be fair to Fixtures Man, at this point he probably needs to wait to see when the weather is going to clear before issuing the fixtures to the end of the season.

There's no point in doing it now then finding the games on the 10th March are all wiped out, as seems possible at the moment.

[glensmad]

Especially as the new season is proposed to start on 28th July.

[eyeswideopen15]

First off Iv only really started to take an interest in junior football, I always have and still prominently watch the Amatuers, so forgive me if this sounds stupid but why isn't there the same issues in Amateur football? Is it simply that Amatuers teams can move their games about week to week to get games played ? On the other hand public parks Amateur teams play on sometimes get used 3/4 times a weekend plus training etc so why is it that some weeks u may see a junior clubs game off but an amateur game on down the road. Is it simply the juniors are too "fussy" or the Amatuers haven't high enough standards?

[glensmad]

11 minutes ago, eyeswideopen15 said:

First off Iv only really started to take an interest in junior football, I always have and still prominently watch the Amatuers, so forgive me if this sounds stupid but why isn't there the same issues in Amateur football? Is it simply that Amatuers teams can move their games about week to week to get games played ? On the other hand public parks Amateur teams play on sometimes get used 3/4 times a weekend plus training etc so why is it that some weeks u may see a junior clubs game off but an amateur game on down the road. Is it simply the juniors are too "fussy" or the Amatuers haven't high enough standards?

I definitely think junior referees are way too fussy.

I regularly watch games on telly that are played in conditions much worse than those I've seen junior matches called off for.

[21stcenturyboy]

44 minutes ago, eyeswideopen15 said:

First off Iv only really started to take an interest in junior football, I always have and still prominently watch the Amatuers, so forgive me if this sounds stupid but why isn't there the same issues in Amateur football? Is it simply that Amatuers teams can move their games about week to week to get games played ? On the other hand public parks Amateur teams play on sometimes get used 3/4 times a weekend plus training etc so why is it that some weeks u may see a junior clubs game off but an amateur game on down the road. Is it simply the juniors are too "fussy" or the Amatuers haven't high enough standards?

It is mainly because an amateur team can book any park they want

 

say for example Blochairn Star are playing Tynecastle at the cage and on the Thursday they know pitch may not be playable - they can book a 3g pitch (as long as opponents are ok) and they have a load of council facility or even Junior/senior 4G pitches they can choose from.

 

In the Juniors the park needs to have certain requirements - we (St Roch's) for example would not ne able to book Glasgow Green or somewhere like that - we could if opposition agreed go to a "Junior" 4 G park for example Petershill. While that option would get the game on it wont happen often as then the home team would loose out on revenue - eg shop, bar etc.

[21stcenturyboy]

The other reason that the Juniors may seem a little more pernickety is that is the away team travel and the game is then put off - the home team are liable for their travel costs

[eyeswideopen15]

Yes I completely understand the reluctance to move a home game to an alternative venue if it means a loss of earnings through gate, bar etc. It wouldn't be u heard of tho for , say, the buffs to be called off but down the road at pennyburn a game being on a grass park. Is that down the over fussy refs at the junior or down to the Amateurs low standards. I'm not having that the junior ground isn't significantly better than the public park.

[froggie]

26 minutes ago, Bigjimmcalpine said:

. For me it's any excuse NOT to play nowadays, regularly we are seeing junior pitches that are 95 percent playable yet are being called off , could be that certain teams don't fancy it maybe due to injuries / Suspensions/ players unavailable etc , next thing you see is the teams manager trying to lean on the match ref to get the game off and the ref isn't willing to take the gamble in case a guy gets a dull one on the said problematic area , personally I think the games went way too soft in junior football and it's any excuse not to play , outwith travel issues  you will never see an orange ball out again with the lines being cleared of snow and game on , it never hurt anyone in the 80s and 90s and wouldn't hurt anyone now but sadly them days are long gone .

I think there is a difference between matches called off due to rain and games called off in conditions where, even if a pitch is playable, it would be irresponsible to encourage players and fans to travel. Referees are damned by self appointed experts  if they call a game off, but these are the very same people who would be hanging the ref out to dry if a player suffers an injury that put them off work because the ref couldn't see in their crystal ball that this was going to happen, I will miss seeing a game tomorrow, but a sense of perspective sadly lacking in certain quarters means my disappointment is nothing in the context of poor road conditions and pitch surrounds and a hope that everyone, even the more eccentrically argumentative hereabouts, stays safe. It's just an opinion, but there you go.

[21stcenturyboy]

3 hours ago, eyeswideopen15 said:

Yes I completely understand the reluctance to move a home game to an alternative venue if it means a loss of earnings through gate, bar etc. It wouldn't be u heard of tho for , say, the buffs to be called off but down the road at pennyburn a game being on a grass park. Is that down the over fussy refs at the junior or down to the Amateurs low standards. I'm not having that the junior ground isn't significantly better than the public park.

Good point 

My only observation would be (using your example) is that Pennyburn coonsil pitches will be maintained  by best equipment and a team of coonsil workers where as (and I don' know there circumstances) the buffs need to rely on co.mittee volunteers etc to ready pitch - this will be more obvious in lower leagues though were the standard of pitch is not so good 

[froggie]

18 minutes ago, 21stcenturyboy said:

Good point 

My only observation would be (using your example) is that Pennyburn coonsil pitches will be maintained  by best equipment and a team of coonsil workers where as (and I don' know there circumstances) the buffs need to rely on co.mittee volunteers etc to ready pitch - this will be more obvious in lower leagues though were the standard of pitch is not so good 

A team of hi-vis eager beavers turning the likes of Dalry, Thorniewood, Ardeer into the proud owners of flat, firm, green grass arenas...the stuff of dreams and always to  remain so, but better to think of that than an enforced halt to my football that the weather has unavoidably brought on.

[Hillonearth]

4 hours ago, eyeswideopen15 said:

Is it simply the juniors are too "fussy" or the Amatuers haven't high enough standards?

A bit of both, I reckon - I've seen ammy games go ahead with big standing pools of water on the park and I've also seen Junior games called off for one corner being deemed too soft

As has been said earlier, the amateur game generally isn't set up for spectators, so teams can chop and change venues due to what's available and/or playable - as long as the other team are kept in the loop everybofy's happy. Junior sides unless there are special circumstances can only play competitive games at recognised junior grounds...moving elsewhere can be a logistical nightmare, both in terms of organisation and lost gate receipts, so it's normally only done as a last resort

We ended up playing a Junior cuptie at St Anthony's last winter after our own place was rained off repeatedly, and while the crowd was healthy, it was probably a couple of hundred down on what it could have been had it been played at Lochburn on the first time of asking.

[boulderdomb]

A bit of both, I reckon - I've seen ammy games go ahead with big standing pools of water on the park and I've also seen Junior games called off for one corner being deemed too soft
As has been said earlier, the amateur game generally isn't set up for spectators, so teams can chop and change venues due to what's available and/or playable - as long as the other team are kept in the loop everybofy's happy. Junior sides unless there are special circumstances can only play competitive games at recognised junior grounds...moving elsewhere can be a logistical nightmare, both in terms of organisation and lost gate receipts, so it's normally only done as a last resort
We ended up playing a Junior cuptie at St Anthony's last winter after our own place was rained off repeatedly, and while the crowd was healthy, it was probably a couple of hundred down on what it could have been had it been played at Lochburn on the first time of asking.

I think another point to remember regarding this is referees at amateur level are new refs and still aren’t experienced enough/trained on how to gauge if a pitch is playable or not (and never trained on how to tell if a pitch is playable or not). Also need to remember some amateur referees can be as young as 14 if being observed - I know if i was 14 I wouldn’t want to tell 22 players plus coaches they’re not playing. Junior referees are “listed referees” and are under a lot more scrutiny/pressure than your average amateur referee and usually have bigger aspirations than an amateur referee.

Another point is the junior game is of a higher standard than amateur and is treated much more like a “proper” game of football e.g spectators, mechanise etc.

[21stcenturyboy]

Don' think when I managed at amateur level I would have allowed a 14 year old to take our games 

Would be very surprised if this was accurate

[Markka]

Utter nonsense of a post , any ref regardless of the level is " trained " on how to judge a football pitch , and as for a 14 year old refereeing an amateur game I've watched several hundred ammy games and i have never saw a 14 year old in charge of it , your post is flawed , it's inconsistent, it reeks of dung to be honest and brings very little to the table. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-43241996

Not entirely relevant, but the above is a good story about a 14 yr old ref.

[Brig O'Lea]

On 3/2/2018 at 14:56, glensmad said:

I definitely think junior referees are way too fussy.

I regularly watch games on telly that are played in conditions much worse than those I've seen junior matches called off for.

It's not just pitches, they are all over the place with the issue of kits clashing too.

[glensmad]

It's not just pitches, they are all over the place with the issue of kits clashing too.

It's the referees who insist on goalies changing because their kit clashes with the ref which cracks me up. As if the ref might think "he caught that ball, or was it actually me ?" ????

[redstarbenhar]

What criteria does a referee apply when deciding whether a pitch is “playable” ?

Not sure whether there are clear black and white rules or whether there is a degree of subjective judgement involved.

For “borderline” cases would it be possible for both teams to sign a disclaimer that they are willing to play at their own risk ?

[Hillonearth]

I think someone hit the nail on the head earlier on when they mentioned the refs we get are the ones tracked for promotion to the SPFL - as a result they're applying professional standards to a semi-pro game, where many pitches due to unavailability of manpower and resources perhaps understandably aren't always maintained to SPFL standards.

They are making the "correct" decision a lot of the time in terms of the training and direction they've had - in at least some cases "correct" doesn't equate to "right" unfortunately.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Bit of a long shot but what do folks think is the most likely game to go ahead next week? How are the parks at the likes of Troon and Whitletts? Two i’ve still to check off my list if either are at home?