Guest Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 27 minutes ago, The Moonster said: All clubs are self serving. You admit in your last paragraph that Talbot are looking out for themselves too. Nothing about the senior set-up currently stops Junior sides from applying other than "we don't want to because it's a shite league", unless there's some criteria I don't know about? That is self serving. Honestly, you are the only guy I've heard (anywhere, not just on here) talk about the pyramid being some sort of stroke of genius or Nirvana as you keep saying. I've literally never heard anyone say that. It's all in your head. You ask a question and I gave you an answer. Yes every club is self serving to a degree, but that does not mean that when some are particularly so it should not be highlighted. As for the reference to Talbot being self serving in the last paragraph, I disagree, Talbot cannot do what Clydebank are proposing as it would be catastrophic for them and would be stupid, there is a fundamental difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 37 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: Imagine if the SJFA and its top clubs had been open and engaged all those years ago instead of sitting in the corner chucking stones, we might have had a great set-up right from the start. Talbot and most others are equally as culpable for where we are now, so your constant bleating cuts no ice because at the time you wanted no part of it. You reap what you sow. I refer you to my response to Bendan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 44 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said: I refer you to my response to Bendan. You forget I sat in on many meetings at that time. The SJFA's negotiating position (which still is), is that the SJFA and its structure should remain untouched and intact, that was their negotiating position, no concessions. Then, TJ & Co proceeded to tell club reps at meetings that to be part of the Pyramid would cost £thousands to comply with Licencing (£150k toilets is one of the infamous comments, another was it would cost their club £4k every home game in lost revenue - I wont name the club), and generally degrade and criticise the whole concept. Nothing was presented factually, it was presented from an anti-Pyramid standpoint. Most reps lapped this up, with few dissenting voices. The EoSFL clubs therefore pressed ahead with the LL in the full knowledge that the SJFA weren't interested. I thought that was wrong and too hasty, the first LL season didn't afterall have any promotion to the SFL (as it was at the time), so more could have been done to engage directly with Junior clubs. However I can see the point of view of why wait another season if the end result would have been the same, and there was a degree of opportunism. The Juniors had little to lose if they were prepared to negotiate and compromise, they could have shaped the Pyramid from the start. They weren't interested and the EoSFL clubs took full advantage. So to go back to my previous post, your club want to be Licenced but can't unless they join the Pyramid which poorly serves West clubs....you reap what you sow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duraglit shareholder Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 2 hours ago, The Moonster said: If you want me debate with you can you try and not leave your posts dripping with condescension? Nobody said those words, so how can there be a "Kurt Cobain mob" if nobody actually thinks it's Nirvana? It seems to me the people you say are calling it the promise land are actually saying "it's not perfect, but what can we do to make it work?". Some clubs have different views on how to do that - Talbot clearly think staying Junior and refusing to join the set up until it's fixed is the way forward, others like Clydebank see their future in the seniors and have come to the conclusion that whilst it's not perfect, the best way to influence change is to be part of it. FWIW, the SFA and SJFA are both to blame for the situation we are in. Both sides digging their heels in rather than coming to an amicable solution. There shouldn't be two different grades IMO, everyone under the same banner competing in the same system, everyone then finds their level and have the opportunity to achieve what they want to achieve. But, for as long as we have people on in the Juniors saying " we love being Junior and yer no stealing oor grade!" and people in the SFA saying "ah well, knock yerselves oot" then we'll continue down this path of clubs deciding what is best for themselves. For Clydebank that means joining the seniors, for Talbot that means staying in the Juniors - quite why you and yer pal Harry have jumped all over this I have no idea. Can you explain what you mean by the pyramid being self serving? Nobody that supports Talbot on this forum can speak on how the powers that be at Beechwood view the pyramid.Until someone gives Talbots official verdict on the subject you cant say......oh Talbot want to stay junior,as written above.The majority of bot fans on here are only giving their own opinions of the pyramid,not the clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 48 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said: You ask a question and I gave you an answer. Yes every club is self serving to a degree, but that does not mean that when some are particularly so it should not be highlighted. As for the reference to Talbot being self serving in the last paragraph, I disagree, Talbot cannot do what Clydebank are proposing as it would be catastrophic for them and would be stupid, there is a fundamental difference. Talbot are staying in the Juniors because it's makes sense for them. Clydebank are going to the seniors because it makes sense for them. You can't decry one as self serving and defend the other. 7 minutes ago, Duraglit shareholder said: Nobody that supports Talbot on this forum can speak on how the powers that be at Beechwood view the pyramid.Until someone gives Talbots official verdict on the subject you cant say......oh Talbot want to stay junior,as written above.The majority of bot fans on here are only giving their own opinions of the pyramid,not the clubs. Right. I must have missed Talbot applying to the pyramid then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newcastle broon Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 If any mods are around Can we get this back on topic! This thread is aboot Clydebank, no another chance for points scoring from both sides of the great divide. Is there no enough pro/anti pyramid threads as it is. Ffs!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry's Corner Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 When did this moonrocket become the spokesperson on here? [emoji23] the seeker of truths and stability Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 1 minute ago, The Moonster said: Talbot are staying in the Juniors because it's makes sense for them. Clydebank are going to the seniors because it makes sense for them. You can't decry one as self serving and defend the other. Right. I must have missed Talbot applying to the pyramid then. I never said Clydebank were being self serving. It is certain clubs who railroaded the pyramid through who are self serving . Clydebank seem to think they can make it work, I have my doubts but good luck to them. It would be insanity for Talbot to join the SOSL or EOSL. Can I make something clear, I am not having a go at Clydebank on this thread, they will do what they think is right they are IMHO bolting for a gate hoping it leads to where they once were. I am just not sure it is right for them because of the state of the so called pyramid as I have explained. Can't see any other West club following them unless something changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 9 minutes ago, newcastle broon said: If any mods are around Can we get this back on topic! This thread is aboot Clydebank, no another chance for points scoring from both sides of the great divide. Is there no enough pro/anti pyramid threads as it is. Ffs!! Clydebank are proposing moving from the Juniors to EOSL, that is a big move, as it is Clydebank who are proposing it, how is discussing the merits of the move not relevant to Clydebank and this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 14 minutes ago, Harry's Corner said: When did this moonrocket become the spokesperson on here? the seeker of truths and stability ^^^Doesn't understand the concept of a multi-club forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 10 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said: I never said Clydebank were being self serving. It is certain clubs who railroaded the pyramid through who are self serving . Clydebank seem to think they can make it work, I have my doubts but good luck to them. It would be insanity for Talbot to join the SOSL or EOSL. Can I make something clear, I am not having a go at Clydebank on this thread, they will do what they think is right they are IMHO bolting for a gate hoping it leads to where they once were. I am just not sure it is right for them because of the state of the so called pyramid as I have explained. Can't see any other West club following them unless something changes. There is nothing 'so-called' about the pyramid: it is in place, whether your club and other Junior outfits want to keep a closed shop or not. And the steady drift of ambitious clubs from your ranks to the pyramid setup shows that your stance is doomed to failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newcastle broon Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 5 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said: Clydebank are proposing moving from the Juniors to EOSL, that is a big move, as it is Clydebank who are proposing it, how is discussing the merits of the move not relevant to Clydebank and this thread? Have a read of some posts Isa. It's the same old shite going round and round ffs man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newcastle broon Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 6 minutes ago, The Moonster said: ^^^Doesn't understand the concept of a multi-club forum. Multi user name more like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 10 minutes ago, virginton said: There is nothing 'so-called' about the pyramid: it is in place, whether your club and other Junior outfits want to keep a closed shop or not. And the steady drift of ambitious clubs from your ranks to the pyramid setup shows that your stance is doomed to failure. I use the term "so called" because it can be argued that it doesn't actually function as a pyramid. There is no argument about it being here, there is however significant argument about it's merits as a system. Also, leading on from my first point is that whilst you say my club and other want a closed shop, I say we have no choice other than Hobson's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newcastle broon Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 7 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said: I use the term "so called" because it can be argued that it doesn't actually function as a pyramid. There is no argument about it being here, there is however significant argument about it's merits as a system. Also, leading on from my first point is that whilst you say my club and other want a closed shop, I say we have no choice other than Hobson's There ye go again ffs we aw know yer views Isa. Just let the Clydebank lads get on wi it. There's nothing official aboot it yet anyway or have I missed something in the 25 feckn pages!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 13 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said: I use the term "so called" because it can be argued that it doesn't actually function as a pyramid. It quite clearly does function as a pyramid, as promotion and relegation now operate between the national and the regional setups (subject to club licencing requirements). Whether your closed shop is part of that pyramid system or not is irrelevant to that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonS Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 13 minutes ago, virginton said: It quite clearly does function as a pyramid, as promotion and relegation now operate between the national and the regional setups (subject to club licencing requirements). Whether your closed shop is part of that pyramid system or not is irrelevant to that fact. By that logic there was a pyramid 1949-55, because the bottom division was regionalised. The fact is that there are many bigger, better and more successful clubs outside the pyramid than in it. There are entire leagues that are clearly of a higher standard outside the pyramid than in it. So it's fair to say it doesn't really function as a pyramid. What we have is the skeleton of a pyramid structure. The English pyramid evolved over decades, with difficult decisions taken on how to slot in various regional leagues, and there were overlaps and irregularities until fairly recently. We're in the early stages of that. If a WoS league was set up I'm sure it would progress more quickly. Though why anyone would prefer the experience of following a club in League 2 over following a club in the East or West Junior Superleagues is a mystery to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry's Corner Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 ^^^Doesn't understand the concept of a multi-club forum. You're just another wind up merchant. You've lost the plot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 7 minutes ago, GordonS said: By that logic there was a pyramid 1949-55, because the bottom division was regionalised. The fact is that there are many bigger, better and more successful clubs outside the pyramid than in it. There are entire leagues that are clearly of a higher standard outside the pyramid than in it. So it's fair to say it doesn't really function as a pyramid. What we have is the skeleton of a pyramid structure. The English pyramid evolved over decades, with difficult decisions taken on how to slot in various regional leagues, and there were overlaps and irregularities until fairly recently. We're in the early stages of that. If a WoS league was set up I'm sure it would progress more quickly. Though why anyone would prefer the experience of following a club in League 2 over following a club in the East or West Junior Superleagues is a mystery to me. No, it still functions as a pyramid structure. East Stirlingshire were relegated from the national setup and have found their rightful place in a regional league. If the standard of the LL was as poor as some on this forum would suggest, then they'd have stomped their way back into the national league by now. They haven't and won't; therefore the pyramid structure is functioning entirely as intended. No amount of harrumphing and foot-stomping by Junior teams on the sidelines is going to change those facts. Nor will it stave off the steady trickle of clubs with ambition to play at a higher level of the game abandoning your rudderless ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted March 6, 2018 Share Posted March 6, 2018 12 minutes ago, Harry's Corner said: You're just another wind up merchant. You've lost the plot Feel free to point out any post in which I've been winding folk up. A wind up merchant who has wound up himself? Makes no sense, Harry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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