Alternative visions for what an Independent Scotland could look like?

[dirty dingus]

1 hour ago, Antiochas III said:

What about all the many other Commonwealth Countries?  

 Too Black, Too Brown, Too Yellow,  Too Muslimy?

[welshbairn]

SNP Scottish Nativist Party? I reckon Swampy/Yank Mike's back.I 

[JamieThomas]

I'd like it to be a Stalinist republic but with more cake, please.

[Loondave1]

did I say something wrong

Criticism of Princess Nicola !! Outrageous...

[git-intae-thum]

Education is key.

Scotland will never again properly compete in the auld heavy industry and mass manufacturing sectors. Too many low cost foriegn competition.

Instead we will need a highly educated computer literate workforce is highly skilled and at the forefront of future tech. As a small part of the world economy, we will need to specialise

I am thinking renewables, software design, VR and AI programming and production, space technologies and the like. Stuff we already do but can expand on.

As an independent country we could really go to town on "Scotland" the brand. Despite being part of the British empire, Scotland is remarkably well thought of throughout the globe. From food and drink, sports, tourism and cultural exports, we could really push our "soft power projection." 

Oh... I would hope for a genuine meritocracy where hard work and talent are rewarded.

A fair taxation system. One where tax dodgers are treated equally as harshly as benefit cheats.

Most of all a place where people have a strong work ethic. We will need it if we want to succeed.

 

[MTB_again]

On 1/18/2018 at 12:40, renton said:

This already occurs in the UK. As it stands previous trials with UBI seemed to show a reduction in adverse health outcomes and stress, is genuinely redistributive and increases the bargaining power of Labour to walk away from a bad deal as well as increasing the overall flexiblity of the Labour market. It also grants greater freedom to those who would be entrepreneurs: Allowing a greater latitude to take risks in maturing ideas without destroying their entire lives if the gamble doesn't pay off. Given the increasing trend towards automation of the work environment - coupled with the collapsing cost of production in some markets, the UBI also offers a way of maintaining society where less and less work is available.

Similar to what I said to the other guy about Socialism only working when its protected, I'd say the same thing regarding UBI for the coming reasons you've posted.  A declining population isnt a bad thing for a developed nation at all, like you say it gives the existing labour force more leverage, thats assuming the majority of the population havent been lead to believe owning a home is akin to investing in the future or a pension but rather just somewhere to live.  That might seem a derail when talking about the feasibility of UBI but your home or rented space is the number one investment any of us make and is at the heart of our entire economy, the cost of living is code for the cost of living in a house and thats what will ultimately determine the success or otherwise of UBI.

Right now housing benefit is the chief public handout that holds the whole show up, a landlord can own any old dump and be guaranteed £500+ a month from their local authority (we all know for families it can be much higher), which in turn means they can borrow on that income to feed the property market further and increase property prices for everyone.   How a protected Socialism would manifest would be to outright limit/end private landlords gouging benefit money or even just those who were buying up thatchers £2000 council houses in the 80s,  if they want to charge inflated rents then let them improve their properties or build their own houses and rent those out, thats what socialist redistribution would look like and top-down guaranteed housing would be required.  Oh and something else for people to invest their earnings into to protect their futures, no easy task.

Replacing housing benefit with the current versions of UBI for everyone must be a private landlords wet dream the ore I think about it, any sort of system that isnt all in will just feed the machine until full breakdown, UBI will have to go up perpetually to plug the gap.  For UBI to work youd need to socialise housing again, find a way to subsidise peoples decades of investments in their properties and decide which stadium to hold the public hangings of private landlords in.

I'm no fan of the current system, the cycle of government subsidising the property market is already a reality, a declining population would help but you cant plan ahead 30 years what the population will be even if you did stop the movement of people incoming.

You know the entire native western population fall is actually reversing against all predictions, we're starting to see conditions where children are seen as a resource for the first time since the early industrial revolution.  More children means more access to public housing and benefits, opportunities to live well on a normal wage are increasingly limited so opting out entirely is an option for many young people.  It's people who go out and work that arent having kids.

[MTB_again]

On 1/18/2018 at 12:40, renton said:

The trick is to recognise that the EU is not benevolent or altruistic in means, even if the ends broadly are positive.

I'd dearly love to see a Remain'r figurehead come forward and say that first part, has the electorate ever even heard of the possibility of a non benevolent EU?

The EU should be a free trade zone and nothing else, maybe they could have a body that stops companies dumping toxic waste in rivers that cross borders too but superseding the will of national governments that block policies leading to the unaccountable European Nation is terrifying.  This is an extreme example but theres massive EU pressure right now on the Czech republic regarding firearm ownership, the population of the country want restrictions relaxed wholesale and have elected a government thatll do it, so what business does the EU have to say anything?  Having a significant armed population is counter to the EU vision that such things shouldnt be required but theres strong emotions among many of the former Communist countries regarding what their own governors are capable of, many of the people living there have either lived through or have relatives who have experienced extreme totalitarianism first hand.

Not that I think the people are under any threat but it should 100% be up to the people of the nation to decide for themselves.  We would be highly skeptical about UK membership if London put pressure on Scotland to enact policy people in Scotland hadnt voted for because it broadly meets their own goals.  How many people want Trident based on the West Coast of Scotland?  How many people want to pay a TV license fee that funds the BBC directly?

Besides free trade and freedom of movement, is there any social or private policy thought up by the EU that Scotland couldnt do on her own?

[MTB_again]

2 hours ago, git-intae-thum said:

I am thinking renewables, software design, VR and AI programming and production, space technologies and the like. Stuff we already do but can expand on.

The sciences, advanced arms, advanced biotech, the arts etc etc, theres a whole plethora of things I'd love to see us looking forward on but as per the topic title, wheres the political figure selling it to the 55%?  The only message we hear is how much more free stuff people can have.

[git-intae-thum]

20 minutes ago, MTB_again said:

The sciences, advanced arms, advanced biotech, the arts etc etc, theres a whole plethora of things I'd love to see us looking forward on but as per the topic title, wheres the political figure selling it to the 55%?  The only message we hear is how much more free stuff people can have.

This is stuff that for too long has been missing from the independence debate.

If we are to be successful as an independent state we need wealth creation. 

The indy argument was far too skewed towards the left in 2014. Many no voters (rightly or wrongly) feared a jakey takeover and the resultant economic chaos.

We are the nation that gifted the world the doctrines of the mixed economy. Independence can be viewed as a business opportunity.

[MTB_again]

15 hours ago, git-intae-thum said:

 

We are the nation that gifted the world the doctrines of the mixed economy. Independence can be viewed as a business opportunity.

This was how Salmond sold it for most of his time, it wasnt until new labour imploded and the parasitic left jumped to the SNP as a new host did the message change.

Nic is fully on board of course, she is one of them, killing the independence movement.  Theres a reason nae c**t votes green

[welshbairn]

27 minutes ago, MTB_again said:

This was how Salmond sold it for most of his time, it wasnt until new labour imploded and the parasitic left jumped to the SNP as a new host did the message change.

Nic is fully on board of course, she is one of them, killing the independence movement.  Theres a reason nae c**t votes green

How many exLabour voters do you think will switch back from a right wing and racially paranoid SNP? And how many Tories would you gain?

[MTB_again]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

How many exLabour voters do you think will switch back from a right wing and racially paranoid SNP? And how many Tories would you gain?

Is everyone on here hysterical? lol.  I wouldnt want the SNP to swing to the right, just go back to where they were about 2007.

They'd lose the extreme left of the party, who could go back to being ignored in the ssp and gp, protesting for transgender penises on the nhs in silence out of the way, the converted Labour voters wouldnt leave.

With the continued decline of England, the only unionists that will remain in the coming years will be the ideologically driven who have never set foot outside Scotland in their life, who think London is still fish n chips and the redcoats are sweeping across africa,  these people are not rational.

We went into the last ref not even knowing what currency we'd use and had tommy sheridan barking at crowds in Glasgow, its not exactly mad that people didnt go for it.   An SNP leader making the economic case for independence without the caveat of free dole for everyone would attract tories.  They could start in Edinburgh, where house prices would double in 10 years as the city is flooded with well paying, civil service, legal and finance jobs like every other European capital, if anywhere in Scotland would benefit from ind it would be there first and foremost.  Its as if nobodies told them

[welshbairn]

36 minutes ago, MTB_again said:

Is everyone on here hysterical? lol.  I wouldnt want the SNP to swing to the right, just go back to where they were about 2007.

They'd lose the extreme left of the party, who could go back to being ignored in the ssp and gp, protesting for transgender penises on the nhs in silence out of the way, the converted Labour voters wouldnt leave.

With the continued decline of England, the only unionists that will remain in the coming years will be the ideologically driven who have never set foot outside Scotland in their life, who think London is still fish n chips and the redcoats are sweeping across africa,  these people are not rational.

We went into the last ref not even knowing what currency we'd use and had tommy sheridan barking at crowds in Glasgow, its not exactly mad that people didnt go for it.   An SNP leader making the economic case for independence without the caveat of free dole for everyone would attract tories.  They could start in Edinburgh, where house prices would double in 10 years as the city is flooded with well paying, civil service, legal and finance jobs like every other European capital, if anywhere in Scotland would benefit from ind it would be there first and foremost.  Its as if nobodies told them

You would lose the civil nationalists the SNP gained by portraying themselves as a progressive, social democratic party and pro Europe. You'd gain......who? They've already got a right wing party to vote for, and 95% of them want it to be Unionist. The people all het up about immigration usually turn up to be living in England somewhere with romantic ideas of how to save the old country. Is that you?

[The_Kincardine]

20 hours ago, git-intae-thum said:

Education is key.

Scotland will never again properly compete in the auld heavy industry and mass manufacturing sectors. Too many low cost foriegn competition.

Instead we will need a highly educated computer literate workforce is highly skilled and at the forefront of future tech. As a small part of the world economy, we will need to specialise

This is true and has to be the model for most Western economies.  Applied to Scotland it has two fatal flaws

Flaw 1.  I don't think Scottish schools are competitive enough.  Partly anecdotal and partly based on the lack of published standards for individual schools but I'd have no confidence that a child leaving with 6 highers from a good school in Scotland would have anything like the attainment of his equivalent leaving a good school in England with 3 or 4 A Levels.  If 'education is key' (which I agree with) then there has to be educational transparency which there isn't.  There also has to be the opportunity for educational excellence which, in a comprehensive system, is well-nigh impossible.

Flaw 2.  I do recognise that Scottish Unis are, generally, excellent but opportunities graduates in the "forefront of future tech" is extremely limited in Scotland.  If you look where the UK excels intellectually it is in pharma research, automotive research and design, defense manufacturing, legal services, management consultancy, insurance and other service industries.  Not much of this is native to Scotland.

So Scotland is producing inferior school leavers and Scottish universities are producing  graduates who have no where to go outside the public sector.

[MTB_again]

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

You would lose the civil nationalists the SNP gained by portraying themselves as a progressive, social democratic party and pro Europe. You'd gain......who? They've already got a right wing party to vote for, and 95% of them want it to be Unionist. The people all het up about immigration usually turn up to be living in England somewhere with romantic ideas of how to save the old country. Is that you?

Inverness, from here, work Edinburgh and London sometimes.  Consider that the people from elsewhere looking back at Scotland have more experience with the long term degeneration of cities than you do.  I've never been to the USA but I can argue the case for free higher education there, Ive plenty of experience with it many there dont.  

Also some nice emotive language, you probably arent even aware youre using it, you reveal yourself.  Using 'progressive' as a noun implies nontraditionalist politics is an inevitable welcome future, 'romantic' ideas being unattainable and idealistic.  You might call 'saving' Scotland as romanticism, Im trying to think up why Scotland doesnt want independence and to do better for itself given the backwater England is these days.

And again I dont want to reinvent the SNP as a right wing party, I just want them to dial back the rush to turn us into Venezuela

[NotThePars]

Can’t see the US blockading us anytime soon so unsure where the Venezuela comparison comes from.

[MTB_again]

34 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

Can’t see the US blockading us anytime soon so unsure where the Venezuela comparison comes from.

http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/28877.aspx?SearchType=Advance&Keyword=venezuela&ExactPhrase=True&DateTo=20/01/2018 23:59:59&SortBy=DateSubmitted&Answers=All&SearchFor=All&ResultsPerPage=10

Theres an element of government that does actually have surprising amounts to say about the South American state, the current minister for Employment said “Venezuela has been transformed through the progressive policies pursued by the Chavez administration in the last decade.”  a couple of ears ago.

The SNP is giving these people a platform they would never have were they not piggybacking on independence, Hepburn would be a member of the Green Party in an independent Scotland.  Theres internal pressure from the party to constantly promote the socialist vision for an independent Scotland, if youve been listening to any recent party conference youd be gobsmacked, yet theyre expecting everyone who wants independence to vote for them. 

I've no idea what the solution is, I feel like theres nobody to vote for.

[PB 4.2]

2 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

 

Flaw 2.  I do recognise that Scottish Unis are, generally, excellent but opportunities graduates in the "forefront of future tech" is extremely limited in Scotland.  If you look where the UK excels intellectually it is in pharma research

 

 

Scotland produces more than double the amount of graduates that attain a 1st class science honours compared with the UK average.   The increase in standards via secondary record results to performance at further education has been a real success story.   You should accept the praise the SNP deserve on this and Health and policing.   Regardless if you think Scotland isn't a country.  

[git-intae-thum]

7 hours ago, welshbairn said:

You would lose the civil nationalists the SNP gained by portraying themselves as a progressive, social democratic party and pro Europe. You'd gain......who? They've already got a right wing party to vote for, and 95% of them want it to be Unionist. The people all het up about immigration usually turn up to be living in England somewhere with romantic ideas of how to save the old country. Is that you?

Eh....are you saying that people who are economically centre or right of centre cannot be civic nationalists?

Its a mistake for the independence movement to attach itself to one side of the political spectrum. The argument needs to reflect a wide spectrum of views.

Hardore lefties obviously have their place, but....... it ain't their gig. Witness the adoration of Corbyn ffs. A man who probably knows and cares less about Scotland than Boris and Theresa. 

Too many of the business class were probably spooked in 2014, by outspoken hard left dafties. 

After Brexit many more business folk are probably receptive to independence.  These ain't Cat Boyds or Sheridans. They have influence and voices that many folk listen too.

Keep the socialist workers revolution (as long as we can own our own home and drink prosecco) sh@te until after an indy vote is won.

Scotlands political leanings, its relations with Europe and the wider international community, are issues to settle democratically after idependence.

 

[welshbairn]

6 hours ago, git-intae-thum said:

Eh....are you saying that people who are economically centre or right of centre cannot be civic nationalists?

Its a mistake for the independence movement to attach itself to one side of the political spectrum. The argument needs to reflect a wide spectrum of views.

Hardore lefties obviously have their place, but....... it ain't their gig. Witness the adoration of Corbyn ffs. A man who probably knows and cares less about Scotland than Boris and Theresa. 

Too many of the business class were probably spooked in 2014, by outspoken hard left dafties. 

After Brexit many more business folk are probably receptive to independence.  These ain't Cat Boyds or Sheridans. They have influence and voices that many folk listen too.

Keep the socialist workers revolution (as long as we can own our own home and drink prosecco) sh@te until after an indy vote is won.

Scotlands political leanings, its relations with Europe and the wider international community, are issues to settle democratically after idependence.

 

The SNP Government isn't remotely hard left, it's as mainstream, centrist social democratic as you get. If they swerve to UKIP lite as the OP seems to be suggesting, Labour will sweep straight back in as the largest party and you could forget about independence for another generation.