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Alternative visions for what an Independent Scotland could look like?

MTB_again

By MTB_again
in The Politics Forum

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MTB_again

MTB_again

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1 hour ago, renton said:

I understand the core neo-liberalism of the EU makes it unattractive to many, but the levels of co-operation and trade between sovereign nations makes it worth it.

Btw, what is your issue with UBI?

I guess we are in disagreement about whats worth sacrificing to be part of the EU's grand plan, for me they showed their hand after the Catalan ref, where they casually stayed as silent as possible as the police crackdown on organisers took place.  Their leaders pleaded with the EU for support and were completely ignored in spite of the violence, yet on the other side of the continent the visegrad group are being threatened with expulsion and sanctions for not following EU policy.  The EU respects the national sovereignty of Spain when they beat the shit out of citizens for voting peacefully, as it suits their goals, yet not the national sovereignty of Poland or Hungary when they take positions against the EU's goals.  For me those Catalan voters couldve been Scottish voters, the vast majority of them were pro EU, yet they were given no protection at all, with human rights being one of the chief arguments for staying part of the larger block.

UBI, the gist is that it can only work in high trust societies where nobody is incentivised to take advantage of anyone else, either as an employer, landlord or retailer.  The only UBI system I have ever seen drawn up that has potential sees the overall UBI funded on a voluntary basis by corporations and individuals, who are given tax cuts in return, with members of the public free to use or refuse their share with tax benefits for not claiming.  Its a bit convoluted but for sure the top down replacement of other welfare with a blanket UBI handout level decided by government will lead to all sorts of issues long term.  There will be a net benefit to people at the bottom of the food chain who do decide to work and take their UBI but only in the short term.  Employers as a whole will stagnate salaries in line with UBI levels in the same way they used to do (maybe still do?) with tax credits, where they would only offer positions with limited hours and hand the tax credit forms over to the employee on their first day. 

Youre asking the government to subsidise workers who would otherwise have been paid by their employer, who pockets the difference, not in the short term but in the long term the UBI deficit can only go one way.   For UBI it would have to be global, theres nothing stopping people in Glasgow taking their free cash to Dumbarton and spending it there, driving up prices for the locals not on UBI.  The trial will prove nothing, it would have to be everyone nationwide on the same level for it to prove anything either way, its going to be an expensive experiment but if business likes it, it'll happen.

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ICTChris

ICTChris

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1 hour ago, NotThePars said:

Balkanisation: a Glasgow Commune, the Fascist Republic of the Lothians, an actual Kingdom of Fife.

My main problem with UBI is that it might cement the nature of precarious labour and allow further wage stagnation which is precisely why people like Elon Musk support it. As a capitulation to neoliberalism, it’s depressing but as part of a broader left wing revolutionary strategy it could be great. I think it depends on who is implementing and why.

I'm looking forward to making aliyah to an independent Shetland, where we will fell the remaining three trees and from them build longships to raid the Southern shores,  as our forefathers did.  How sweet the crude oil will taste, supped from the skulls of our enemies.

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MTB_again

MTB_again

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1 hour ago, Baxter Parp said:

Scandinavian socialist republic in the EU, please.

Cute, he thinks its 1997.  Three news stories from the last 24 hours.

https://www.thelocal.se/20180117/bring-in-the-military-to-fight-gangs-swedens-pm-told-at-debate

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/674943/Malmo-police-station-hand-grenade-explosion-attack-blast

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5283339/Number-rapes-Sweden-10-year-figures-reveal.html

There was once a time the Scandinavian Republics were the envy of the world but socialism only works when its protected, perhaps one day but it wont be delivered by Nicola Sturgeon.  Scotlands future is as a rich northern european country but not a socialist one, as I said in my first post its in our nature to fight for equal opportunities for all and not equal reward.

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MTB_again

MTB_again

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3 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

This is what happens when people gain their knowledge of other countries from Trump's tweets and the Daily Express.

 

I cant speak for every country in the EU but I work all over the UK, Scotland has a lot to be proud of and a lot to protect.

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ICTChris

ICTChris

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So many people seem to have pie in the sky ideas about how the world works.

Scandinavian countries aren't socialist (I appreciate that Baxter Parp was probably joking when he posted but people do say that seriously from time to time).

The EU isn't some sort of benevolent organisation dedicated to freedom, truth, justice and the European way.  It's an organisation of member states, none of whom would want to see Catalonia gain Independence.   If the SNP called a standalone indyref, without agreement from Westminster, then they can expect the same treatment. 

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renton

renton

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20 minutes ago, MTB_again said:

I guess we are in disagreement about whats worth sacrificing to be part of the EU's grand plan, for me they showed their hand after the Catalan ref, where they casually stayed as silent as possible as the police crackdown on organisers took place.  Their leaders pleaded with the EU for support and were completely ignored in spite of the violence, yet on the other side of the continent the visegrad group are being threatened with expulsion and sanctions for not following EU policy.  The EU respects the national sovereignty of Spain when they beat the shit out of citizens for voting peacefully, as it suits their goals, yet not the national sovereignty of Poland or Hungary when they take positions against the EU's goals.  For me those Catalan voters couldve been Scottish voters, the vast majority of them were pro EU, yet they were given no protection at all, with human rights being one of the chief arguments for staying part of the larger block.

UBI, the gist is that it can only work in high trust societies where nobody is incentivised to take advantage of anyone else, either as an employer, landlord or retailer.  The only UBI system I have ever seen drawn up that has potential sees the overall UBI funded on a voluntary basis by corporations and individuals, who are given tax cuts in return, with members of the public free to use or refuse their share with tax benefits for not claiming.  Its a bit convoluted but for sure the top down replacement of other welfare with a blanket UBI handout level decided by government will lead to all sorts of issues long term.  There will be a net benefit to people at the bottom of the food chain who do decide to work and take their UBI but only in the short term.  Employers as a whole will stagnate salaries in line with UBI levels in the same way they used to do (maybe still do?) with tax credits, where they would only offer positions with limited hours and hand the tax credit forms over to the employee on their first day. 

Youre asking the government to subsidise workers who would otherwise have been paid by their employer, who pockets the difference, not in the short term but in the long term the UBI deficit can only go one way.   For UBI it would have to be global, theres nothing stopping people in Glasgow taking their free cash to Dumbarton and spending it there, driving up prices for the locals not on UBI.  The trial will prove nothing, it would have to be everyone nationwide on the same level for it to prove anything either way, its going to be an expensive experiment but if business likes it, it'll happen.

This already occurs in the UK. As it stands previous trials with UBI seemed to show a reduction in adverse health outcomes and stress, is genuinely redistributive and increases the bargaining power of Labour to walk away from a bad deal as well as increasing the overall flexiblity of the Labour market. It also grants greater freedom to those who would be entrepreneurs: Allowing a greater latitude to take risks in maturing ideas without destroying their entire lives if the gamble doesn't pay off. Given the increasing trend towards automation of the work environment - coupled with the collapsing cost of production in some markets, the UBI also offers a way of maintaining society where less and less work is available.

As for the EU, it's no surprise to me how they treated Catalan voters. They backed the UK to the hilt in 2014 and quickly changed their tune on possible Scottish entry post Brexit. it's no surprise they back their members, why else would you join if they wouldn't? The trick is to recognise that the EU is not benevolent or altruistic in means, even if the ends broadly are positive. It's a transactional relationship and should be approached as such, with a clear head and a cold heart. 

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Peppino Impastato

Peppino Impastato

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3 hours ago, PB 4.2 said:

 Well I voted Yes/Leave and would do the same again.   

With regards to the performance of Nicola Sturgeon she's out of touch with the nations desire for Indyref2.   The majority are not desperate for another vote, and many find the constant threats of Indyref2 a turn-off.   I don't think she fully understands this. 

On day-to-day matters shes great and schools Davidson and Leonard at FMQ and is a warm likeable person.  

I don't understand her obsession with the EU.   Jim Sillars isn't the 'old duffer' he's sometimes portrayed on here.   A vote offering EFTA terms would be more likely to carry imo than Independence tied to the EU. 

Her 'obsession' stems from the fact she's first minister of Scotland and every single council area in Scotland voted remain.  Pursuing that is kind of her fkn job.

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renton

renton

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31 minutes ago, MTB_again said:

Cute, he thinks its 1997.  Three news stories from the last 24 hours.

https://www.thelocal.se/20180117/bring-in-the-military-to-fight-gangs-swedens-pm-told-at-debate

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/674943/Malmo-police-station-hand-grenade-explosion-attack-blast

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5283339/Number-rapes-Sweden-10-year-figures-reveal.html

There was once a time the Scandinavian Republics were the envy of the world but socialism only works when its protected, perhaps one day but it wont be delivered by Nicola Sturgeon.  Scotlands future is as a rich northern european country but not a socialist one, as I said in my first post its in our nature to fight for equal opportunities for all and not equal reward.

The language and politics of the left in the UK is pretty stretchy but as far as I can see no one in the mainstream left has been demanding equal outcomes since prior to the 2nd World War. 

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Donathan

Donathan

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If you're going to use a happiness index to support an argument for how we should run our country then you really lose the ability to argue with Brexity types that want us to become more looped in with out fellow English speaking commonwealth countries of Canada, Australia and New Zealand. All of them are in the top 10.

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Baxter Parp

Baxter Parp

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12 minutes ago, Donathan said:

If you're going to use a happiness index to support an argument for how we should run our country then you really lose the ability to argue with Brexity types that want us to become more looped in with out fellow English speaking commonwealth countries of Canada, Australia and New Zealand. All of them are in the top 10.

Define "looped in".

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