West Region Cup Committee

[Kennie]

A bit of my earlier post that some people have either missed or are choosing to ignore is where I said it deserves consideration.

By that, I don't mean it should just be dismissed out of hand because of - "Ach, I don't like this cup. Just scrap it."

Some clubs, some players, some managers and even some fans quite like it. Even clash city rocker's mates had a good day out at last season's final.

By the way it is not a new cup in my opinion but an amalgamation of 2 existing cups. 

Playing the sections in 1 week is hardly going to be the main reason for any fixture congestion and I'm sure there's other ways to help alleviate that.

[Shannon]

Either the League Cup or end of season Ayrshire / Central District Cup has to be scrapped to fit in extra league games in without playing into June or 4 games a week!!

 

I think start of season West of Scotland Sectional Cup won't help as best teams in top league will again have extra or same amount of cup games while a few teams in bottom two leagues finish their season in April.

 

 

 

 

[clash city rocker]

16 hours ago, Kennie said:

A bit of my earlier post that some people have either missed or are choosing to ignore is where I said it deserves consideration.

By that, I don't mean it should just be dismissed out of hand because of - "Ach, I don't like this cup. Just scrap it."

Some clubs, some players, some managers and even some fans quite like it. Even clash city rocker's mates had a good day out at last season's final.

By the way it is not a new cup in my opinion but an amalgamation of 2 existing cups. 

Playing the sections in 1 week is hardly going to be the main reason for any fixture congestion and I'm sure there's other ways to help alleviate that.

Trust me Kennie Ladeside having their first Super League win at Pollok this season meant more to me than Ardagh Cup win. That week you want to play trialists in cup ties would be bettered served by getting 3 league matches done.

In an ideal world every junior club would have lights alleviating that chaotic end of season nonsense. In an ideal world every match would be played before Junior Cup final. When the Super League's were voted in we were promised it would be more professional , years have been wasted with same irrational and irresponsible fixture scheduling. The Scottish Cup has to be stopped during Winter months ,rounds have to be played at a time when vast majority of scheduled ties can be completed. People want lengthy fixture lists but you know that is all well in theory but nigh impossible in practice.

Well aware that vast majority of clubs in juniors are nothing more than glorified amateur but that doesn't mean we have to act like the amateurs. We have to streamline to survive imo quality over quantity ,  League and 2 cups , 32 guaranteed games , 15 guaranteed at home , attempting to get the vast majority played on a Saturday when clubs can make the most of hospitality and better crowds.. and better conditioned players not dashing home from work , not to forget committee men... has to be way forward.

[theesel1994]

Just bin the Evening Times Cup and cut out some of the end of season pressure to get the league games finished. They've said the don't want the cup played the following season so just get rid of it altogether. Get rid of the two District Cups as well. There no longer is an Ayrshire District or Central District but if you still want to cling onto them in name only, you still have the sectional league cups for that purpose.

[cmontheloknow]

They will go out of their way to avoid binning anything with a sponsor.

[Ardenvohr6]

You’d think binning diddy cups with sponsors could open the doors to the sponsors moving up a notch. New Coins Automatic Scottish Junior Cup and Ardagh West of Scotland Cup have a ring to them. Not to dismiss out of hand the East’s sponsors, just an example.

[garrellburn]

1 hour ago, cmontheloknow said:

They will go out of their way to avoid binning anything with a sponsor.

The value of the sponsorships has declined enormously in recent years. For the majority of clubs it is worth nothing; to be meaningfull clubs reaching the semi-final stage of any competition should receive some prize money. They often get kept hanging around for several weeks to play a tie, paying out wages and training expenses only to go out in the semi, or even earlier, and get nothing in return. Crowds at even late stages of some of these cups are pitifull.

What can be done? I wish I knew.

[cmontheloknow]

24 minutes ago, garrellburn said:

The value of the sponsorships has declined enormously in recent years. For the majority of clubs it is worth nothing; to be meaningfull clubs reaching the semi-final stage of any competition should receive some prize money. They often get kept hanging around for several weeks to play a tie, paying out wages and training expenses only to go out in the semi, or even earlier, and get nothing in return. Crowds at even late stages of some of these cups are pitifull.

What can be done? I wish I knew.

it's almost at the level of vanity publishing - we have a sponsor (no matter if it actually costs us!). It is almost as if the press coverage the ET gives the rest of the season is seen as offsetting the disruption their cup causes in the last few months of it.

[Kennie]

2 hours ago, clash city rocker said:

Trust me Kennie Ladeside having their first Super League win at Pollok this season meant more to me than Ardagh Cup win. That week you want to play trialists in cup ties would be bettered served by getting 3 league matches done.

In an ideal world every junior club would have lights alleviating that chaotic end of season nonsense. In an ideal world every match would be played before Junior Cup final. When the Super League's were voted in we were promised it would be more professional , years have been wasted with same irrational and irresponsible fixture scheduling. The Scottish Cup has to be stopped during Winter months ,rounds have to be played at a time when vast majority of scheduled ties can be completed. People want lengthy fixture lists but you know that is all well in theory but nigh impossible in practice.

Well aware that vast majority of clubs in juniors are nothing more than glorified amateur but that doesn't mean we have to act like the amateurs. We have to streamline to survive imo quality over quantity ,  League and 2 cups , 32 guaranteed games , 15 guaranteed at home , attempting to get the vast majority played on a Saturday when clubs can make the most of hospitality and better crowds.. and better conditioned players not dashing home from work , not to forget committee men... has to be way forward.

Well, I deliberately said that your mates would have enjoyed the day. You admitting otherwise would hardly suit your agenda. 

But let me ask this, rightly or wrongly you consider the majority of juniors to be glorified amateurs. Do you think that the streamlining to achieve quality over quantity should include these clubs?

[clash city rocker]

2 minutes ago, Kennie said:

Well, I deliberately said that your mates would have enjoyed the day. You admitting otherwise would hardly suit your agenda. 

But let me ask this, rightly or wrongly you consider the majority of juniors to be glorified amateurs. Do you think that the streamlining to achieve quality over quantity should include these clubs?

Nope I want every Junior club to prosper but retaining a sectional cup so Lugar get get a pay day v Talbot and Cumnock is not way to do it.  Consider every club to be equal , some go through hard times , that's fitba but all are equal.

Streamlining tournaments dealing with congested fixtures is not same as doing away with clubs.

Agenda ? Don't have an agenda sir , I have no ambition of ever being fixtures secretary,  only a long time supporter of junior fitba who sees it increasingly coming under pressure from this new fangled pyramid that some clubs have expressed interest in leaving for.  

 

[Kennie]

15 minutes ago, clash city rocker said:

Nope I want every Junior club to prosper but retaining a sectional cup so Lugar get get a pay day v Talbot and Cumnock is not way to do it.  Consider every club to be equal , some go through hard times , that's fitba but all are equal.

Streamlining tournaments dealing with congested fixtures is not same as doing away with clubs.

Agenda ? Don't have an agenda sir , I have no ambition of ever being fixtures secretary,  only a long time supporter of junior fitba who sees it increasingly coming under pressure from this new fangled pyramid that some clubs have expressed interest in leaving for.  

 

No guarantee that Lugar would get Talbot and Cumnock in the same group if Ricky's proposal went through.

So it's not about 'pay days'.

[cmontheloknow]

25 minutes ago, Kennie said:

No guarantee that Lugar would get Talbot and Cumnock in the same group if Ricky's proposal went through.

So it's not about 'pay days'.

What purpose does the cup play then? If the dervby games are lost, it is a series of friendlies for those who do not win the group. It's played under league rules anyway at group stage so with extended league fixture lists, this all seems a bit superfluous.

[Goalie Hamish]

League x 30

Scottish Junior Cup

West of Scotland Cup

Then have an Ayrshire Cup and a Central Cup for clubs in those districts (knockout)

Scrap everything else.

[Budandavodka]

League x 30
Scottish Junior Cup
West of Scotland Cup
Then have an Ayrshire Cup and a Central Cup for clubs in those districts (knockout)
Scrap everything else.

Agreed and move to a March till November season. [emoji6][emoji5]

[archieb]

The Junior Cup and West of Scotland Cup are worth retaining in their current format.

The end of season district cups create more problems than they're worth, as does the Evening Times Cup which has become a pointless competition between teams of widely differing abilities.

The Sectional Cups are a tired format and amalgamating them into one and tweaking the section size and complicating the draw will not refresh them enough to improve their value.

I suggest scrapping the lot except for the Scottish and the West and offering the existing sponsors the opportunity to back one or more completely novel competitions.

I have two suggestions for these, I'm sure others will be able to come up with other ideas.

1. Four separate knockout competitions for each of the four new divisions. With 16 teams in each, the draw will be simple to do and understand. This would provide a new way for teams of a similar level to measure themselves against each other. Ties could be played on a two-leg home and away basis if more fixtures are required (probably not an issue, at least initially). If there's a concern that Premiership clubs would suffer fixture overload this could operate in only the lower 3 tiers. To increase value rules could be changed to give the winning team automatic promotion.

2. A staged and seeded knockout cup where, in each of the first 3 rounds, clubs are guaranteed to be drawn against opponents from a different division, thereby providing interest via novelty. E.g. in R1 each tier 4 (League 2) club is drawn against a tier 3 (League 1) club, then an extra draw decides home advantage. In R2 each R1 winner is similarly drawn against a tier 2 (Championship) club then, in R3, tier 1 (Premiership) clubs are introduced in the same way. From R4 onwards the draw would become open. Tier 1 & 2 clubs would dominate later rounds but excluding them from early rounds (when they would play league matches) would reduce fixture congestion.

Ok, tear me to pieces fellow P&B posters!

[Beenzon-Toste]

The Junior Cup and West of Scotland Cup are worth retaining in their current format.
The end of season district cups create more problems than they're worth, as does the Evening Times Cup which has become a pointless competition between teams of widely differing abilities.
The Sectional Cups are a tired format and amalgamating them into one and tweaking the section size and complicating the draw will not refresh them enough to improve their value.
I suggest scrapping the lot except for the Scottish and the West and offering the existing sponsors the opportunity to back one or more completely novel competitions.
I have two suggestions for these, I'm sure others will be able to come up with other ideas.
1. Four separate knockout competitions for each of the four new divisions. With 16 teams in each, the draw will be simple to do and understand. This would provide a new way for teams of a similar level to measure themselves against each other. Ties could be played on a two-leg home and away basis if more fixtures are required (probably not an issue, at least initially). If there's a concern that Premiership clubs would suffer fixture overload this could operate in only the lower 3 tiers. To increase value rules could be changed to give the winning team automatic promotion.
2. A staged and seeded knockout cup where, in each of the first 3 rounds, clubs are guaranteed to be drawn against opponents from a different division, thereby providing interest via novelty. E.g. in R1 each tier 4 (League 2) club is drawn against a tier 3 (League 1) club, then an extra draw decides home advantage. In R2 each R1 winner is similarly drawn against a tier 2 (Championship) club then, in R3, tier 1 (Premiership) clubs are introduced in the same way. From R4 onwards the draw would become open. Tier 1 & 2 clubs would dominate later rounds but excluding them from early rounds (when they would play league matches) would reduce fixture congestion.
Ok, tear me to pieces fellow P&B posters!

Ok. I'll start.
Promotion for winning a cup?
Mad.
Who's getting relegated to accommodate that then?
What if the cup winner is also last in their league? Do they go up? Do they go down? Stay where they are?
What if the cup winner also wins the league?
Do they go up 2 divisions?
Do they go up 1 division and what happens to the team that would have got relegated?
Torn apart yet?

[Beenzon-Toste]

As for the other one, you lost me at tier 4 league 2. That's the biggest load of shite that needs sorted. Never mind cups.

[archieb]

15 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

Ok. I'll start.
Promotion for winning a cup?
Mad.
Who's getting relegated to accommodate that then?
What if the cup winner is also last in their league? Do they go up? Do they go down? Stay where they are?
What if the cup winner also wins the league?
Do they go up 2 divisions?
Do they go up 1 division and what happens to the team that would have got relegated?
Torn apart yet?

That was only one small radical option, I notice you don't object to the basic idea of  separate divisional (tiers 1-4) cups.

12 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

As for the other one, you lost me at tier 4 league 2. That's the biggest load of shite that needs sorted. Never mind cups.

The terminology for the divisions in the new league setup is already set and fixed now for at least season 2018-19, nothing to do with these ideas.

What bit of tier 4 v tier 3 => winners v tier 2 => winners v tier 1 => open draw is difficult to follow?

You've got feck all chance of understanding the new UEFA League if that's a problem for you!

[Bellsdale Boy]

The Sectional Cup just needs to go. It's such a tired format that no amount of revamping will save. It gets in the way of getting a whole host of League Games played straight away at the start of the season every Sat and Weds.

 

There is potential to keep another League / District Cup and archieb's idea of seeding and bringing a league in per round isn't the worst idea and would ease congestion for those clubs who predominantly will do better in Cups.

 

I worry that even if it was a Scottish, West and League set up that some clubs will still struggle to play all of the games in time. Dalry for example have only played 5 League Games by the turn of the year, none at home. They haven't played their WoS Cup 1st Rd tie and only got their Scottish tie played by switching to a neutral venue. They haven't played at home since 12th of August! Not picking on Dalry, just using them as an example but in the new setup they would still have a minimum 16 home ties to play with probably no chance any will be played before March. No amount of revamping cups will help situations like this.

 

 

 

 

[theshed]

No guarantee that Lugar would get Talbot and Cumnock in the same group if Ricky's proposal went through.
So it's not about 'pay days'.

Attendences in the ardagh cup are dwindling by the year and I include crowd figures in the beith v kilbirnie derby fixture in the sectional cup in that , so you propose for example beith or kilbirnie to travel up midweek in a revamped west sectional cup to play maybe shotts or Cumbernauld away midweek ?

Do you honestly think that players / management and fans would jump on board this new concept and embrace it and travel much farther then the two miles that they aren't even travelling for local derbies ? Sorry I'm just not getting this one bit .