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Given a recent wake of trial by social media sexual harassment accusations, particularly Netflix fully cancelling House of Cards in the wake of the Kevin Spacey allegations.

 

Are we now moving into a scenario where social media is changing the way we look at people who are accused of crimes? There seems to be no concept of innocent until proven guilty when it comes to trial by social media. For me it's a dangerous precedent.

 

I could, for instance, research where a certain star was filming on location 10 years ago, find out where they where they stayed during the filming and tweet an allegation of some form of wrong-doing. With the correct hasgtags on twitter, I believe these unsubstantiated claims could gain some serious traction and result in potentially devastating consequences for the person.

 

Now I am not for a second condoning sexual harassment or assault but social media, twitter in particular, seems to be changing the game when it comes to the rule of law, and the concept of innocent until proven guilty.

 

Is there anything that can be done to stop this, as it's essentially one of the most powerful aspects of Twitter - to be he 'voice of the voiceless'.

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There's a post on the front page of reddit linking to a thread half a year ago where someone speaks about Spacey sexually assaulting one of his pals when he was a teenager.  About 5 minutes of fishing later and it seems like he's not alone and that this is maybe another Harvey Weinstein situation of it being a bit of an open secret in Hollywood.

Obviously you don't want to jump to conclusions but the fact there are several sources claiming to know about all this stuff, that he's almost deflecting with the abuse by coming out and that he's not even denied it, it doesn't read very well for him.

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Kevin Spacey would be a good target to pick because he definitely doesn’t have deep pockets to sue over untrue allegations and he probably couldn’t forum shop and bring the action in Britain (rather than the US) where it is easier to prove defamation/libel. [/sarcasm]

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I could basically sort out British TV by making some wild accusations about Simon Cowell, Brendan O’Carroll, every single c**t from Essex and Chelsea, Len Goodman, James Corden, Keith Lemon, a vat of chloroform and a nubile young OP.

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1 hour ago, DigOutYourSoul said:

Given a recent wake of trial by social media sexual harassment accusations, particularly Netflix fully cancelling House of Cards in the wake of the Kevin Spacey allegations.

Well, they are cancelling after the next series but i do get your point. Spacey isn't a great example as he hasn't denied this happened, he apologised for it, which makes me think he actually knows it happened despite his claims of being too drunk to remember. But i agree that this narrative of believing the accuser before even knowing if there is any proof beyond the allegation is a concerning precedent.

There was a video made by Sargon of Akkad, a pretty divisive figure but its in regards to Emma Sulkowicz, a college student who made allegations against a fellow student that after a investigation they could find no evidence supporting this and when the charges and investigation were dropped she continued to pursue this, even going so far as making a performance art piece about her accusations which involved her carrying around the mattress that she claimed she was raped on. Some years later she even recreated what she says happened with a stand in (with full sex) and posted it on porn websites. The video im linking is Sargon looking into the accusations, the relationship between the two(which can best be described as her being obsessive) and such. Its actually really fucking disturbing
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mattress_Performance_(Carry_That_Weight)
 

Begun in September 2014, the piece involved her carrying a 50-pound (23 kg) mattress, of the kind that Columbia uses in its dorms, wherever she went on campus. She said the piece would end when a student she alleges raped her in her dorm room in 2012 was expelled from or otherwise left the university. Sulkowicz carried the mattress until the end of the Spring semester as well as to her graduating ceremony in May 2015.

1280px-Emma_Sulkowicz,_Mattress_Performance,_19_May_2015_(cropped).JPG
 

The student Sulkowicz accused was found not responsible in 2013 by a university inquiry into the allegations. He called Sulkowicz's accusation "untrue and unfounded" and Mattress Performance an act of bullying. Sulkowicz filed a police complaint in May 2014; the district attorney's office did not pursue criminal charges, citing a lack of reasonable suspicion. In April 2015 the student filed a lawsuit against the university, its trustees, university president Lee Bollinger, and art professor Jon Kessler, Sulkowicz's thesis supervisor, alleging that they exposed him to gender-based harassment by allowing Mattress Performance to take place on campus for course credit. The suit was dismissed in March 2016. The student filed an amended complaint on April 25, 2016, which resulted in the university settling for undisclosed terms, and expressing regret about his "difficult" time and promising to reform its policies so "accuser and accused, including those like the student who are found not responsible" are "treated with respect" in the future.

 

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It absolutely should be innocent until proven guilty.

Sometimes some of those who lead the crusade against sexism, misogyny, racism and bigotry feel that the alleged crime is so severe that it should be a matter of castigating people first then asking questions later.

It's dangerous stuff, but there's no middle ground in the eyes of vast amounts of people these days. If you question the widely held view even slightly, you might as well be the enemy.

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2 hours ago, DigOutYourSoul said:

Given a recent wake of trial by social media sexual harassment accusations, particularly Netflix fully cancelling House of Cards in the wake of the Kevin Spacey allegations.

Are we now moving into a scenario where social media is changing the way we look at people who are accused of crimes? There seems to be no concept of innocent until proven guilty when it comes to trial by social media. For me it's a dangerous precedent.

Yes it's extremely dangerous and wrecks lives, which is why for the last ~4 years I've been drawing attention to it becoming a go-to tactic.

This rape culture hysteria is in the realms of activism, so it's a whole different kettle of fish regarding how far things are taken, how well organised it is, how much exposure it gets. It also goes deeper that social media, see Edgarus' post above and read up on Title IX/Dear Colleague in colleges in the US.

1 hour ago, Ad Lib said:

False allegations of sexual assault are extremely rare.

You've made this claim before without backing it up IIRC. Sources, please.

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“Innocent until proven guilty” relates to the treatment of accused persons under criminal law and has absolutely nothing to do with one person publicly accusing another person of something.

Defamation is a different thing and existed long before Twitter. 

People who accuse other people of doing illegal things via Tweets can be sued for defamation and in this country the burden would be on the defender to prove the truth of their allegations. Sally Bercow is a high profile example of someone who was ordered to pay damages for merely tweeting an allusion to false allegations that a high profile politician was a paedophile.

It would be at odds with the rule of law and the freedom of the press to keep all criminal proceedings secret until a conviction is secured.

It would also seem odd for high profile and relatively successful actresses and actors to make numerous false allegations of sexual assault against rich and powerful people.

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14 minutes ago, anotherchance said:

Sometimes some of those who lead the crusade against sexism, misogyny, racism and bigotry feel that the alleged crime is so severe that it should be a matter of castigating people first then asking questions later.

That's being generous, many of these ideologues and activists have no interest in the truth. Listen and believe.

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3 hours ago, DigOutYourSoul said:

 

Given a recent wake of trial by social media sexual harassment accusations, particularly Netflix fully cancelling House of Cards in the wake of the Kevin Spacey allegations.

 

Are we now moving into a scenario where social media is changing the way we look at people who are accused of crimes? There seems to be no concept of innocent until proven guilty when it comes to trial by social media. For me it's a dangerous precedent.

 

I could, for instance, research where a certain star was filming on location 10 years ago, find out where they where they stayed during the filming and tweet an allegation of some form of wrong-doing. With the correct hasgtags on twitter, I believe these unsubstantiated claims could gain some serious traction and result in potentially devastating consequences for the person.

 

Now I am not for a second condoning sexual harassment or assault but social media, twitter in particular, seems to be changing the game when it comes to the rule of law, and the concept of innocent until proven guilty.

 

Is there anything that can be done to stop this, as it's essentially one of the most powerful aspects of Twitter - to be he 'voice of the voiceless'.

 

I don't have much time for the original premise but I guess the more people that realise twitter is a fucking cesspit the better.

 

50 minutes ago, EdgarusQPFC said:

Well, they are cancelling after the next series but i do get your point. Spacey isn't a great example as he hasn't denied this happened, he apologised for it, which makes me think he actually knows it happened despite his claims of being too drunk to remember. But i agree that this narrative of believing the accuser before even knowing if there is any proof beyond the allegation is a concerning precedent.

There was a video made by Sargon of Akkad, a pretty divisive figure but its in regards to Emma Sulkowicz, a college student who made allegations against a fellow student that after a investigation they could find no evidence supporting this and when the charges and investigation were dropped she continued to pursue this, even going so far as making a performance art piece about her accusations which involved her carrying around the mattress that she claimed she was raped on. Some years later she even recreated what she says happened with a stand in (with full sex) and posted it on porn websites. The video im linking is Sargon looking into the accusations, the relationship between the two(which can best be described as her being obsessive) and such. Its actually really fucking disturbing
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mattress_Performance_(Carry_That_Weight)
 

Begun in September 2014, the piece involved her carrying a 50-pound (23 kg) mattress, of the kind that Columbia uses in its dorms, wherever she went on campus. She said the piece would end when a student she alleges raped her in her dorm room in 2012 was expelled from or otherwise left the university. Sulkowicz carried the mattress until the end of the Spring semester as well as to her graduating ceremony in May 2015.

1280px-Emma_Sulkowicz,_Mattress_Performance,_19_May_2015_(cropped).JPG
 

The student Sulkowicz accused was found not responsible in 2013 by a university inquiry into the allegations. He called Sulkowicz's accusation "untrue and unfounded" and Mattress Performance an act of bullying. Sulkowicz filed a police complaint in May 2014; the district attorney's office did not pursue criminal charges, citing a lack of reasonable suspicion. In April 2015 the student filed a lawsuit against the university, its trustees, university president Lee Bollinger, and art professor Jon Kessler, Sulkowicz's thesis supervisor, alleging that they exposed him to gender-based harassment by allowing Mattress Performance to take place on campus for course credit. The suit was dismissed in March 2016. The student filed an amended complaint on April 25, 2016, which resulted in the university settling for undisclosed terms, and expressing regret about his "difficult" time and promising to reform its policies so "accuser and accused, including those like the student who are found not responsible" are "treated with respect" in the future.

 

It seems to me that no matter your politics that US colleges are an utterly awful alt-worldsof weird extremist behaviour.

A dangerous combination of youthful arrogance, entitlement and a lack of exposure to real life consequences.

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You also have people trying to push narratives that change what consent means. Namely if after the fact you regret sleeping with someone, you can withdraw the consent you gave at the time and claim you were raped. Now everyone out there has at least one person in their life that they regret having sex with, hell i know i do and i'm pretty sure she does aswell if she even remembers me or my disappointing performance. But i can't turn round and go "consent withdrawn, you assaulted me with your disgustingly fat tits" and accuse her of assault (although, i would like to accuse her of visual assault because she really was hideous)

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12 minutes ago, EdgarusQPFC said:

You also have people trying to push narratives that change what consent means. Namely if after the fact you regret sleeping with someone, you can withdraw the consent you gave at the time and claim you were raped. Now everyone out there has at least one person in their life that they regret having sex with, hell i know i do and i'm pretty sure she does aswell if she even remembers me or my disappointing performance. But i can't turn round and go "consent withdrawn, you assaulted me with your disgustingly fat tits" and accuse her of assault (although, i would like to accuse her of visual assault because she really was hideous)

Sorry who exactly is pushing for this pretty radical and nonsensical change to what constitutes rape? 

(Hopefully it’s not some lone nut at a university in America because drawing conclusions about large groups of people based upon the actions of a lone nut is pretty stupid).

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16 minutes ago, EdgarusQPFC said:

You also have people trying to push narratives that change what consent means. Namely if after the fact you regret sleeping with someone, you can withdraw the consent you gave at the time and claim you were raped.

This sounds like nonsense. Is there any actual legal precedent or is it just "shit someone said on the internet"?

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23 minutes ago, EdgarusQPFC said:

You also have people trying to push narratives that change what consent means. Namely if after the fact you regret sleeping with someone, you can withdraw the consent you gave at the time and claim you were raped. Now everyone out there has at least one person in their life that they regret having sex with, hell i know i do and i'm pretty sure she does aswell if she even remembers me or my disappointing performance. But i can't turn round and go "consent withdrawn, you assaulted me with your disgustingly fat tits" and accuse her of assault (although, i would like to accuse her of visual assault because she really was hideous)

Being crap at sex is the same as being raped? Is that a Gamergate thing?

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Sorry guys, I've just checked the Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2009 and it states

"Consent can be withdrawn up to but not exceeding 15 years after the conduct has taken place. Valid reasons for the withdrawal of consent include (but are not exclusive to) regret, retrospective conclusions regarding the hideousness of person A by person B and if person A possesses disgustingly fat tits (whether moobs or lady moobs)."

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40 minutes ago, The OP said:

Sorry who exactly is pushing for this pretty radical and nonsensical change to what constitutes rape? 

(Hopefully it’s not some lone nut at a university in America because drawing conclusions about large groups of people based upon the actions of a lone nut is pretty stupid).

 

35 minutes ago, yoda said:

This sounds like nonsense. Is there any actual legal precedent or is it just "shit someone said on the internet"?

 

Never said there was a legal precedent, said there was a push by people to make that acceptable. Shockingly enough this is coming from the campuses in america once again.

https://bandanablog.wordpress.com/2013/11/05/you-can-take-it-back-consent-as-a-felt-sense/

"Put another way, you have “the right to retroactively withdraw consent” from any encounters you had, at any point in the past, that no longer feel good or safe to you."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/02/unwanted-advances-on-campus-us-university-professor-laura-kipnis-interview

Here is an interview with  Laura Kipnis, a professor who wrote an essay and eventually a book on relationships in college campuses and had her job threatened by the conclusions she reached. Among her findings when looking into various cases and allegations, speaking to students etc

"Years later, sex that was consensual can apparently become non-consensual,” she says. “I think that is quite shocking, and that it should be known.”

http://www.npr.org/2017/04/09/522909041/laura-kipnis-tackles-campus-sexual-politics-in-unwanted-advances

"And so there a lot of cases where you have unwanted sex or ambiguous sex being labeled after the fact as sexual assault, or even consent being withdrawn after the fact, sometimes even years after the fact — and I wrote about a case like that in the book."

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